Arkansas non resident license big change

[joey46]

It appears not all states share the same experts.  Ohio and Tennessee come to mind. Ohio from 2 to 1.  TN from 3 to 2.  Down here in FL they hire a management company that give consistently glowing reports to FWC.  When they finally have a seasons worth of actual harvest data from mandatory reporting it takes a FOIA request to get it.  Hmm. Be more than happy to see FL with a one bird limit in the Osceola range. To think reduced limits and maybe shorter seasons won't help in a turkey population drop is false logic and IMO very selfish.  Blaming the non-res while letting the residents shoot um up more a political move than a biological one.

[GobbleNut]

As has been pointed out "ad nauseum" before, this debate all comes down to "population recruitment".  Regardless of what the bag limit is, if you are killing more turkeys than are being replaced in the population through reproduction each year, you are eventually going to run out of turkeys to hunt. 

Choose your poison. Kill more turkeys now with higher bag limits and risk losing the turkey hunting season altogether at some point...or kill fewer turkeys now and perhaps see turkey hunting continue longer into the future.  BUT, if the problem of sustained population recruitment is not solved, turkey managers eventually have no choice but to implement measures to preserve the remaining population.  The reduced bag limits and shortened seasons we are seeing in places are band-aid measures. 

Posters have reasonably pointed out that lower bag limits and shortened seasons do not guarantee reduced harvest due to the factors already mentioned. The bag limit/season issue is relevant ONLY if it accompanied with also establishing a harvest quota (maximum number gobblers that will be allowed to be taken in a particular population).  However, a lot more management effort is involved in implementing such measures.

Without a solution to the reproduction problem (in those areas that have it), we only need to look at what is already in place in many western states in big game management...lottery drawing across the board and/or quotas on harvest in specified units/areas.  That is what is on the horizon for turkey hunting, as well, without solutions being found to sustain turkey numbers wherever they are hunted. 

[joey46]

Good post.  We are headed to reduced limits and quota hunts.  Thinking we will have major habit improvements that will solve any population declines is a pipe dream.

[Prospector]

As easy as it is to blame killing gobblers as a main reason for the population downturn, I kinda believe it isn't as big a factor as many think. Why? Glad you asked: Whatever the reason for the population drop, is decimating HEN recruitment as well. And that is hurting our population way more than gobbler hunting. Frankly, if your population is down and you're still killing hens ( even where legal) you are beyond help.... Anywho, one gobbler can breed many hens, this doesn't work the other way around. This is why even though some may argue I FIRMLY believe predation on eggs, poults, and the broody hen is a major reason,if not the main reason. This is coming from skunks, raccoons, possums, bobcats, coyotes, avian raptors ( I think this is a big one) and any other Turkey loving animal out there. I also believe an important reason that recruitment is down is absolutely deplorable wildlife management in modern timber practices. Bad habitat for nesting, breeding and just plain living. It doesn't help that these practices also favor the predators.
So, yes, to agree, we are heading to reduced access on top of our already reduced opportunity. This will come in the form of draw hunts etc. I personally would like to see all the toys and tech that make it easier to be successful as an answer, but sadly there are too much money and too many whom are unwilling to get out of their comfort zone ( and risk being unsuccessful...) to embrace it. Nothing personal against those methods, it's just that this isn't the 80s and 90s anymore.  I mean, really?!? You think lottery hunts, draw hunts etc are better alternatives than making decoys, blinds, longer range shells/guns, e bikes, ridiculous regs, no required predator trapping a things of the past? Guys, I like to Turkey hunt/ I'll be happy to restrict myself on equipment in order to keep having the freedom to do so. Nothing personal, but Mr Joey and I certainly ( almost never) completely agree, but he is right. Draw hunts and Lotteries are OTW.....the only possible chance it has is to get some of these weekend warriors to stay home and popularity wane. Selfish? Yep- but I'm not talking about taking anybody's freedom to hunt- I'm just gonna make it a bit harder for some to post pics on their FB Page......
Anyway, my main point is whatever is killing our gobblers is killing our hens too. Reduced bag limits, shorter seasons and , yes, even changing how we hunt probably won't do much until a handle is got on the "real" reason numbers are down. Thanks for reading.

[joeturkey]

WOW that makes florida a bargain

[deerhunt1988]

It appears not all states share the same experts.  Ohio and Tennessee come to mind. Ohio from 2 to 1.  TN from 3 to 2.  Down here in FL they hire a management company that give consistently glowing reports to FWC.  When they finally have a seasons worth of actual harvest data from mandatory reporting it takes a FOIA request to get it.  Hmm. Be more than happy to see FL with a one bird limit in the Osceola range. To think reduced limits and maybe shorter seasons won't help in a turkey population drop is false logic and IMO very selfish.  Blaming the non-res while letting the residents shoot um up more a political move than a biological one.

The TN change was made by their commission AGAINST biologist recommendations. The bag limit drop was strictly political, not based on science. Which is a shame, but common in the world of state wildlife management.

In Ohio, according to their 2021 report, only 14% of hunters killed 2 turkey. Which accounted for 1781 birds. Of those, some would have been killed by other hunters. Some birds would have died of natural mortality. Ohio could have saved MORE birds by taking another route, eliminating jake harvest. Yeah, that is a reduction in opportunity, but it'd have a better chance of helping than dropping the bag limit. Jakes often have higher survival than adult gobblers in the off-season.

[Louisiana Longbeard]

Just realized, you have to buy the $410 license. Plus the turkey permit fee.  If you kill your first bird, then you have to buy another turkey permit. Rediculos.

[joey46]

Just realized, you have to buy the $410 license. Plus the turkey permit fee.  If you kill your first bird, then you have to buy another turkey permit. Rediculos.

Yes it is.  If the residents are happy then everyone is happy.  I will add I've long thought that the non-res limit anywhere should be ONE.  The resident limit anywhere should be TWO maximum.  Treating the big birds like small game a disservice to all concerned.  Trying to justify high limits while crying over diminishing populations a fools game. Simple math is simple math. Kill less this year then have a greater carry-over for next year.  And the beat goes on.

[Brian Fahs]

I'm too lazy to read all the posts. I read the first and last page. Forgive me if this has been discussed. I feel when a state charges a set fee for a nonresident license, a resident of that state should pay reciprocal to hunt any other state as a nonresident.

This is America and we are Americans.

When one state skyrockets prices and conditions on nonresident it creates a haven for residents. In the deer hunting world iowa and kansas come to mind.

I love to hunt and work a job to make money to hunt and travel to hunt. When I pay 4x 5x or 10x the license fee of residentst o hunt a bordering state it stinks. I will pay the price but I don't have to like it.

[nativeks]

Its simply supply and demand. Same could be said about lease prices, western big game hunting, etc. There are far more people looking for quality hunting than there is quality hunting available.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[joey46]

Treat the big birds with the respect that they deserve.  They are not a covey of quail or a brace of squirrel.  Harvesting one good bird a season should satisfy anyone.  If your state has a two bird limit consider yourself lucky.  These days are quickly becoming a memory as they should be.

[Prospector]

Mr Joey, once again, we find ourselves agreeing. As a traveling hunter some myself, I would be perfectly happy traveling to another state and taking only one gobbler. I just want to continue to have that option for a reasonable expenditure and not have " to wait in line for the chance". Spot on there for me. Also would be willing to go to a limit of one here at home if it would assure me that I could continue to hear them gobble and see them strut in all my years to go.
As stated though, I believe that they are gonna need more than bag limit reductions to continue to flourish.
As far as the ridiculous increase in NR tags? I'm kinda liking the idea of reciprocal pricing approach. If one state wants to be ridiculous then other states should raise the rates on the incoming tide of NR from that particular state. This one needs more consideration imo.

[Paulmyr]

I live in a 1 bird state with limited opportunity. In a 7 week season I am allowed to hunt 17 days in the 2024 season. The season is divided up into 6 time periods of which the 1st five are 1 week long with final 6th period lasting 10 days. You must choose one  time period from the 6 and if your tag isn't filled during the one of the  1st five periods you are allowed to hunt the last 10 day period. I can generally only hunt weekends with Friday included with my current work schedule. That gives me 6 days of hunting my home state next season without having to be absent from work if my schedule holds and I don't fill my tag. If I get lucky and fill my tag in my chosen time frame I will have hunted at most 3 days.

The season wasn't always this liberal. When I 1st started turkey hunting you were limited to 1 five day period and you had to enter a drawing of which you were generally only successfully drawn every 3rd year. In the mid 2000's the state did away with the drawing and allowed you to hunt one 7 day period with an over the counter tag. Just Recently the state allowed you to hunt the  last period if you don't fill your tag in your chosen time period.

I know what limited opportunity is like as I have lived it. To make up for not being able to hunt in my home state early in my turkey hunting endeavors I started traveling to hunt. My passion/obsession for hunting gobblers did and still does not allow me to sit at home knowing there is season open somewhere. I have no choice in the matter. It's something I must do. It's who I am.

Now on to joey64's carryover argument. The average life expectancy of a female wild turkey is 3 years and for males it is 4. That info is straight from the NWTF website. That means on average there is possibly 3 seasons to harvest an adult gobbler before it dies from causes other than hunting. The thought of reduced limits and  carryover being a significant factor in helping turkey numbers recover when a very small percentage of hunters fill there 3rd  tag where available might be a little lacking. Of  3rd tags filled, how many of the gobblers would have survived to the next season? If it's a 2 year old odds are probably decent making it atleast 1 year. If it's a 3 year old the averages say he might make it to the next season but most likely wont. So for the most part a 2 year old gobbler has the potential to carry over one season, 2 if he's lucky. A 3 year old not so much.

Using deerhunter1984's numbers 1000 3rd tags were filled in Ms. of which, by using the averages,  how many were 2 year olds that could  possibly make it to the next season? 500? 750?  Add in the another reduction for deerhunter1984's assumption that some of the original 1000 gobblers might have been taken by other hunters if the 3rd tag was not there to fill. The carryover number of 12 gobblers saved per county in Ms is getting smaller. By how much? Is it 7, 5, less?


If turkey populations are in such dire straights where hens aren't getting bred because of lack of access to gobblers by all means limit or even close the season. Will it help? Possibly if the reason for the downfall in populations is breeding related. If the reason for poor turkey populations is something other than a hens lack of access to gobblers than reducing limits of which a overwhelming majority of tags are not filled or even closing seasons will only prolong the inevitable for a little while. It will not solve the problem. Populations will continue to dwindle unless proper actions are taken. I'd venture to guess lack of available gobblers to breed hens is not the problem in most situations. As Gobblenut has eluded too recruitment is the answer. Hens with the proper habit  and management to keep and add more hens to the landscape will be the solution.

In light of recent developments in research and observations it seems polt rearing cover maybe a big factor in the declines some areas are seeing across the country.

Another fact from the NWTF website states poor habitat for adult turkeys maybe affecting population declines as well.  A major factor in the survival of an adult turkey depends on the distance it must travel from the roost during the day to find what it needs to survive. The further the turkey has to travel the more energy it has to expend leading to a less fit bird leaving it more vulnerable to disease and poor reproductive rates. It also is more likely to encounter predators in its extended travels resulting in higher predation rates.

Is it really a pipedream to think habitat can't be improved? Is it so hard  to imagine land owners managing their properties to improve polt rearing habitat or turkey habitat in general? Word is getting out and land owners are becoming educated on how to provide proper habitat that will grow turkey numbers instead of just planting food to entice the dwindling local populations onto their property. They are also beginning to learn quality turkey habitat is also quality deer habitat. Local, state, and federal agencies need to be held to account for past mistakes and remove invasive mat forming grasses from excepted planting lists for erosion and water quality control. More Incentives can be put in place to help non hunting landowners manage their properties for the betterment of all ground nesting birds some of which are on the endangered species list.

Habitat reclamation and or improvement is possible with the appropriate frame of mind and the right people in place to make things happen. I have a feeling good things are going to come from Turkeys for Tomorrow. When definitive answers start to come back from the research they have already put in place I'm sure more focus will be put on solutions to the questions about what's going on with wild turkey populations.

If you believe the only course of action is too limit opportunity based on feel good assumtions that's your choice. Stand on the tallest soap box you can find and shout it out to the world. I have no problem with that, I don't believe it but hey, it's your opinion and you're allowed to have it. I do have problem with the insinuation that a person don't respect the animal or is selfish and greedy because he follows his passion and the science that says It's ok to do so.

"Go play golf" or fish crappie after you shoot your 1 gobbler if your so inclined. In the spring I'll be in the woods  somewhere doing what I love.

[joey46]

I remember in the past people, knowing that I hunted, would ask "how did you do this year?".  I would hope to reply "got a nice gobbler or got a nice deer".  Don't ever recall it being a numbers game even back in good old days when a two bird limit was common most everywhere.  If I could afford it I would be much more inclined to take one bird in three different states than three bids in any one area.  Just me but when I hear of three bird state limits anywhere in this day and age the word "oink" pops into my mind.  Some seem to be giving way too much credence to stats put out by state paid "experts".  Seeing this in Florida as I type.  This state still refuses to publicly disclose the totals from their new mandatory check systems.  Honestly I'm way too old to worry about my turkey hunting in the 2030's.  I'll stick with my contention that many of the birds not shot this year will be around to gobble next year.  I hope to also be around to shoot one and maybe two in my home state but never make taking a Florida limit my ultimate goal.  The big birds deserve better.

[Hook hanger]

Maybe all state's need to go to higher licenses to price out some hunting pressure. As to a state's limit you guys may call me a pig but I really enjoyed the years I killed 6-8 toms in the states I hunted. I didn't try and kill them in same general areas. Now on to population/habitat issues, if we have a extremely dry year and have poults running around every where it seems like we must have sufficient habitat(unlike some organizations want you to believe). Wet poults and hens are easy targets for predators habitat or not. Some areas of the country I have visited don't have this problem and some areas are definitely over ran with predators hurting the population. Some areas are over hunted to the point all I see are a few jakes left on the landscape. And some areas and people think that they can't handle tag soup and have to shoot a jake to salvage the tags or to have a kill for a video. The easiest fix to hunting pressure/harvest would be to make all states have a one week season and it be the same week in every state, this may upset some traveling turkey hunters as it is not easy to kill multiple states if you only get to do it one week out of the year. State agencies and some organizations don't really care about the turkey as much as they do the loss of revenue they get this also doesn't help the turkey populations.