Turkey Decline,...What would you do?

[WV Flopper]

 I do not care if you use a rifle, it's not for me, but I don't care. It hasn't caused a significant amount of safety issues, and if the law is followed about legal shooting times..... I don't care.

When I was 14-15 I didn't have a shotgun to use. I used a 270, with 90 grain Sierr@ 's loaded down with (I believe) 4759 powder, "I think" to something like 1300 FPS.

I haven't loaded one of those for 30 couple years.

[Fdept56]

There would be no such thing as private ground, everywhere would be open to hunt. The season would open early March and run until late May. There would be absolutely no bag limit and there would be no daily limit.

BUT, I would be the only person allowed to hunt 

[El Pavo Grande]

I might not be a very popular Turkey Czar of Arkansas if I could set the season regulations.  First I'll say that we have had some fairly conservative seasons (opening dates, season lengths, and Jakes) for some time with a population that has continued to decline all the while because of poor hatches.   But, on the subject at hand I would do as follows:

This is our current structure:
*Monday opener around April 20th (I would keep this in place for the time being)
*Season length of about 21 days, recently expanded after years of 16 day seasons.  (Keep in place)
*2 gobbler bag limit (I would keep this in place for the time being).  Likely around the same number of total gobblers would be killed as with 1 bag limit.  This would be my first change to consider though in following years if poor hatches continue. 
*No bearded hens  (Keep this in place)
*No jakes for adults / Limit of 1 jake per youth hunter (Keep this in place).
*Youth hunt weekend / 1 week prior to opening of regular season.  (Keep this in place)
*All day hunting (Keep this in place)
*No fall season. (Keep this in place).  I love to fall hunt, but as long as baiting with corn is legal for deer, it needs to remain closed.   If I did open a fall season, it would be 1 adult gobbler only and part of an annual 2 bag limit. 
*Draw only permits on select WMAs (Keep in place, but review participating WMAs and hunts)
*Limit of 1 per first 7 days of season....new for 2021 (Keep in place)
*Limit of 1 per WMA per season....new for 2021 (Keep this in place)

If you are familiar with Arkansas, we have our share of outlaws that adhere to very few laws, so these last two probably get abused.  But, you can't regulate for what poachers might do. 

Changes I would make....
*Mandatory Turkey Permit required to hunt - $15 to $20.  All money goes to turkey habitat
*Hard copy turkey tags... peel and attach (required)
*Prohibit Reaping and Fanning
*Prohibit Electronic Decoys
*Prohibit use of gobbler and jake decoys

Not a season structure regulation, but I would push to increase gate closures and limit vehicle access on side roads / log roads. 

[silvestris]

Not a season structure regulation, but I would push to increase gate closures and limit vehicle access on side roads / log roads.

The really good thing about this proposal is that the advocate, if lucky, will live long enough to regret it.  Advanced age, a stroke and low blood pressure (and high) are a booger to live with.

[RutnNStrutn]

Not a season structure regulation, but I would push to increase gate closures and limit vehicle access on side roads / log roads.

Hmmm. Would that actually affect turkey populations? I think the private land hunters harvest much greater numbers of turkeys than public land hunters. Not sure that would be a benefit to turkey numbers.


Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

[eggshell]

I have read what seems like 10,000 post on this topic and I have considered the many different laws in many states. I have been at this game for 50 years seen the boom in populations and the leveling off. I do have a degree in wildlife management and a 30+ year career in a Wildlife Agency. Although my career was in fisheries, i had access to the turkey programs and my staff worked on turkey trap and transplant projects and we ran a check station for harvest.

I have come to a conclusion on the population declines and they are not an easy fix. The number one problem is recruitment ( in layman's language, new turkeys surviving to adults ). Nest and brood survival has dropped dramatically. Three main things contribute to this: Weather, depredation and habitat in that order. We cannot control weather at this time (insert debate over climate change). Depredation of nest is a primary reducer, but also of poults, but we can impact predator numbers. Habitat is degrading and disappearing. This is controllable, but socially unacceptable. People are selfish at heart and want whatever luxuries they can obtain. Timbering, developement and farming practices are degrading much of our turkey habitats, but turkeys are phenomenally adaptive. I see so much land being developed  as a bigger impact. So many places large tracks are busted up into lots and built on. It interferes with turkey movement and reduces available habitat.

Here is the worst news, I'd guess 80% of the citizens of the U.S. don't give a crap. They just want to live the good life and have zero concern for wildlife outside of seeing some at a park on vacation. Next are the politicians and most of them have even less concern.

Regulating harvest is only a reactionary aspect and unlikely to fix anything longterm. It's very much like the reaction to covid 19. We didn't know what else to do so our government shut down the economy, demanded mask and restricted our movement. For the most part all it done was stretch out and prolong the inevitable, until we had a real solution (vaccines). We still ended up with the same results it just took longer to get there. Did it save a few lives, probably. Yet, in the end we still suffered a devastating loss of life and we continue to suffer, both economically and  physically. Even after all we've seen, people still have hardened hearts and resist change.

What makes us think we will accept necessary changes to save something as small in value to the general public as the "Wild Turkey". Our only hope is we have dedicated conservationist in our DNRs and at least some politicians. So please let's not put all the blame on those who hold our only hope. I can assure you they care and they are working on it.     

[Yoder409]

I'd be focused on promoting trapping furbearers, cause the fur market sucks right now. And it's showing the effects it has on our turkey population.

I would go so far as to suggest state-sponsored bounties on skunk, possum, raccoon, fox and coyote

[Happy]

Revisiting some of the timbering practices in the areas I hunt would be necessary as well

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Shiloh]

Good post Eggshell!  I agree with a lot of what you say.  I have always known that a wet spring equaled a bad hatch and was not a good thing, but I have not considered prolonged weather patterns and their affect.  That is definitely something to consider.  I might would move habitat to #1 only because I believe excellent habitat will help turkeys survive predators and bad weather. 

[El Pavo Grande]

Not a season structure regulation, but I would push to increase gate closures and limit vehicle access on side roads / log roads.

The really good thing about this proposal is that the advocate, if lucky, will live long enough to regret it.  Advanced age, a stroke and low blood pressure (and high) are a booger to live with.

I understand that completely....100%!!   But, in Arkansas every log road and every trail is wore out with vehicles, 4 Wheelers, and side by sides.  Even in small areas where it isn't necessarily.  I'm not talking about shutting down every single road, but some need to be closed.

[El Pavo Grande]

Arkansas is the perfect example that we can't regulate our way out of a population decline.   

[makestomstremble]

1. Eliminate any hen harvests, whether they have a beard or not.
2. No longer allow any decoys (including tail fans, man made or natural).
3. No hunting allowed on Wednesday or Sunday.
4. Eliminate harvest of any tom with less than a 6" beard, with exception for youth hunters, under age 18.
5. No ammo allowed other than plain lead in size #6 or smaller, 2 3/4" loads only. Extra full or "turkey chokes" are legal.
6. Zone our state, and allow 2 toms/season in a couple of zones and 1 tom/season in the remaining zones.
7. Clothing must contain a minimum of 400 cubic centimeters of clearly visable flourescent orange.
8. Hunter is allowed two rounds of ammo in possession in the field.
9. Scopes made illegal.
10. Shooting hours close at 6 p.m. statewide.
11. Pop-up, enclosed blinds made illegal. Natural concealment or natural blind still legal.

I believe this would reduce our statewide harvest by at least 1/3. If you wanted to really make it fun, you could make all calls illegal, say for just the first week of the season, with the exception of your natural voice. I know this is half the fun of turkey hunting to many, and it would piss the callmakers big time, but it is another level of accomplishment to call one in with just your voice. And yes, rule #7 might be a bit much. LOL

[Jimspur]

I have read what seems like 10,000 post on this topic and I have considered the many different laws in many states. I have been at this game for 50 years seen the boom in populations and the leveling off. I do have a degree in wildlife management and a 30+ year career in a Wildlife Agency. Although my career was in fisheries, i had access to the turkey programs and my staff worked on turkey trap and transplant projects and we ran a check station for harvest.

I have come to a conclusion on the population declines and they are not an easy fix. The number one problem is recruitment ( in layman's language, new turkeys surviving to adults ). Nest and brood survival has dropped dramatically. Three main things contribute to this: Weather, depredation and habitat in that order. We cannot control weather at this time (insert debate over climate change). Depredation of nest is a primary reducer, but also of poults, but we can impact predator numbers. Habitat is degrading and disappearing. This is controllable, but socially unacceptable. People are selfish at heart and want whatever luxuries they can obtain. Timbering, developement and farming practices are degrading much of our turkey habitats, but turkeys are phenomenally adaptive. I see so much land being developed  as a bigger impact. So many places large tracks are busted up into lots and built on. It interferes with turkey movement and reduces available habitat.

Here is the worst news, I'd guess 80% of the citizens of the U.S. don't give a crap. They just want to live the good life and have zero concern for wildlife outside of seeing some at a park on vacation. Next are the politicians and most of them have even less concern.

Regulating harvest is only a reactionary aspect and unlikely to fix anything longterm. It's very much like the reaction to covid 19. We didn't know what else to do so our government shut down the economy, demanded mask and restricted our movement. For the most part all it done was stretch out and prolong the inevitable, until we had a real solution (vaccines). We still ended up with the same results it just took longer to get there. Did it save a few lives, probably. Yet, in the end we still suffered a devastating loss of life and we continue to suffer, both economically and  physically. Even after all we've seen, people still have hardened hearts and resist change.

What makes us think we will accept necessary changes to save something as small in value to the general public as the "Wild Turkey". Our only hope is we have dedicated conservationist in our DNRs and at least some politicians. So please let's not put all the blame on those who hold our only hope. I can assure you they care and they are working on it.   

Hey eggshell - We hear a lot of talk about later starting dates to help
ensure more hens get bred. What about the benefit of shorter seasons
in regards to recruitment. Specifically, by hunters bumping hens off of
nests for a shorter time period, would that help with predator satiation,
thereby increasing recruitment?

I wonder if someone has compared population declines in states with
shorter seasons, like Missouri and Kentucky, against states that have longer seasons.

[eggshell]

Hey eggshell - We hear a lot of talk about later starting dates to help
ensure more hens get bred. What about the benefit of shorter seasons
in regards to recruitment. Specifically, by hunters bumping hens off of
nests for a shorter time period, would that help with predator satiation,
thereby increasing recruitment?

I wonder if someone has compared population declines in states with
shorter seasons, like Missouri and Kentucky, against states that have longer seasons.

Jimspur, I will answer in respect to Ohio, were I live. I live right in the turkey woods and I listen to turkeys all year around and start monitoring the activity in the spring in March. MOst years I hear groups of gobblers and see flocks with strutters and hens up until about the 7-10th of April. Gobbling starts about mid to late March., but they are mostly developing a pecking order. By the April dates I hear gobblers on the same areas or strut zones daily. Then they go quiet for about two weeks and I think that is our prime breeding period. Hens are flocked up with gobblers and actively breeding. Then I start seeing less hens and hear more gobbling about the third  week and this coincides with the opening of our season. You will continue to see hens with gobblers and breeding happening, but it's less all the time. I think by the end of April most hens are bred. I think our season is OK. I do realize some states open during the period I spoke of that is equivalent to the second week of April for us and yes I think that hurts as hunters interfere.

Here's the kicker. All these opening dates were in existence when flocks were booming and expanding. My question  is why would it affect breeding now when it didn't then? In a crisis situation yes anything that preserves a hen and her nest is an improvement. So a shorter season or shorter days (like noon stoppage) may save a few, it's not the end all - save all. There is a bigger problem/problems. I think what we are seeing is not a single problem, but a compound problem with two or three things existing as co-morbities. I don't know if anyone has compared existing seasons.   

[Turkeyman]

I hear ya eggshell. My primary hunting area is the northern zone of NY. Hunting pressure is generally a non-factor...it is no different now than years ago. The turkey numbers are significantly lower than several years ago. In the fall I used to see in the neighborhood of 50 to 100 birds in a flock. Now if I see a flock of 10 or so that's a lot.

My analysis? 1) too many rainy and cold successive springs, 2) too many predators, both four-legged and winged. I don't see any habitat changes affecting turkey numbers where I hunt. Thus, IMO, if our NYSDEC were to change hunting regs for turkeys it will make no difference in the decline. It wont/cant address or change #1 and #2.