Turkey Decline,...What would you do?

[tracker#1]

There has been a decrease in WNY since 2009. The wildlife biologist finally reacted after complaints from hunters. They took 2 weeks away from the fall 4 week season and 2 five-year studies were done with no solid answers after. For many years, biologists, blamed the hatch on climate, cold and wet. We do get "lake effect" rains off the great lakes but we've had that happening since the beginning of time and during the early 80's when the population was booming. I can drive 4 hours north and east and find better populations, but not like it was. Now the biologist says it's "hunting pressure". So if that's the case then regulate the areas with low numbers. Some years back we had a "split season". If you killed a bird within the first 15 days of the month-long season then you sat out until the second half (15th) of the season for a second bird. That would reduce "hunting pressure" and you still can take two birds. They regulate deer quotas here in certain DMUs, why not for turkeys? What say you?

[GobbleNut]

Good discussion all around.
One constant theme I see from most all of us is the idea that turkey numbers overall have no direct correlation to hunting and are more a function of long-term reproductive success/recruitment that is contingent upon many other factors.  In general, I think we should all be able to agree with that.  Having said that, I personally believe that if hunters are successful in killing enough gobblers from any given population that, at some point, you will not accomplish full breeding of the hen population in that area.  ...And you certainly won't accomplish that if you (potentially) remove EVERY breeding-age gobbler from that population. 

As turkey numbers relate to hunting, there seems to be two schools of thought here. One is that, since hunting is not the culprit in turkey population declines, why punish hunters by reducing hunting opportunity?  The other is that, since turkey numbers are steadily declining over time, we should implement more restrictive hunting regulations to reduce harvest and hope that the birds that are left will eventually have conditions that will allow them to recover more quickly.

In my opinion, both schools of thought have some validity.  However, I personally believe there has to be a tipping point where hunters have to sacrifice for the good of the resource.  That sacrifice can either come voluntarily among hunters through the acknowledgement that there are too few gobblers left in "my woods" and I am going to personally kill less than I legally can,....or that sacrifice can be mandatory by regulation changes that enforce that mind-set whether we agree to it or not. 

From the wildlife manager's standpoint, they are (or should be) really left with only one course of action,...and that is to establish regulations that enforce the reduction of harvest.  They cannot rely on the benevolence of the general hunting community to voluntarily regulate themselves.  It just does not happen in the "real world". 

Now, admittedly, reduction in human harvest rates may eventually not change a thing, as has been noted in the discussions above.  The declines we are seeing may be irreversible due to factors beyond our control, and that are not in the least bit related to human hunting.  The question remains, however, that IF we reduce the human element, will that play a part in any potential recovery of turkey numbers?  From the direction we are going in a lot of areas of the country, it appears we are going to eventually find out.... 

[GobbleNut]

There has been a decrease in WNY since 2009. The wildlife biologist finally reacted after complaints from hunters. They took 2 weeks away from the fall 4 week season and 2 five-year studies were done with no solid answers after. For many years, biologists, blamed the hatch on climate, cold and wet. We do get "lake effect" rains off the great lakes but we've had that happening since the beginning of time and during the early 80's when the population was booming. I can drive 4 hours north and east and find better populations, but not like it was. Now the biologist says it's "hunting pressure". So if that's the case then regulate the areas with low numbers. Some years back we had a "split season". If you killed a bird within the first 15 days of the month-long season then you sat out until the second half (15th) of the season for a second bird. That would reduce "hunting pressure" and you still can take two birds. They regulate deer quotas here in certain DMUs, why not for turkeys? What say you?

A couple of points to be made regarding your comments: 
The first is that the CLIMATE is changing,...and the general climate changes are resulting in more specific WEATHER changes in many places.  Both are impacting the ecosystem in many ways,...and for a lot of different organisms on the planet.  Your comment about conditions being more favorable for turkeys further north could be weather-related in that isolated weather conditions have favored reproductive success in those areas.

However, climate changes are also resulting in northward migration of organisms that might negatively affect turkeys, as well.  For instance, parasites that could not survive in the northern states just decades ago, assumingly due to the environmental conditions they faced, are now thriving. An example of this phenomenon might be the increasing tick problems the northern states seem to be facing.  Could there be parasites/diseases that impact turkeys gradually migrating northward that wildlife biologists have not even identified as potential limiting factors for turkeys?  In my opinion, most certainly.   

Second point in answer to your ending question:  Yes, proper wildlife management should be (logically) dictated on specific, often regional, turkey population numbers that are a function of specific habitat/environmental conditions.  Managing a turkey population in one region that is a fraction of what exists in another, and may be in an entirely different habitat type...and doing that just because both lie within a state's borders,...is ridiculous. 

"Enlightened" game management (such as what you suggest) is not really all that difficult if there is the initiative, willpower, and (unfortunately) the political will to pursue it. Some states seem to have that combination of elements a lot more than others.  In addition, too often wildlife managers make decisions based on trying to "simplify" things rather than what is best for the resource they are managing.  And again, unfortunately, politics (and money) always seems to muddle the entire process. 

[Hook hanger]

I would allow rifles and make every state a 2 week season at the exact same time. 2 bird limit one per week.

[silvestris]

I personally believe there has to be a tipping point where hunters have to sacrifice for the good of the resource.

Does this smack of turkey communism?  If so, Uncle Joe will be all over it.

[eggshell]

Hey, I'll throw another potato in the pot.

Sometimes, crap just happens and there is nothing we can do about it. we'd like to think we can manage, but it's not always possible.

Here's an example: In my younger days, before wild turkeys were a big thing I was a ruffed grouse fanatic and I hunted them just as passionately as turkeys today. We had tons of them and you could move 20+ birds a lot of days and limits weren't unusual. I hunted thousands of acres of private land and much of it I was the only grouse hunter or one of 2 or 3. We would run  the dogs before season and get an idea of how many birds our farm held and when we killed 40% of them we quit that farm. They fluctuated some but it was a known cycle. We manged habitat with different age clear cuts and maintaining field edges. We had birds for 40 years and then they started disappearing and the same habitat practices where in place. I reduced my kill numbers and finally quit killing them at all. In a matter of 10 years, even with zero hunting,  they were gone. This is almost 2,000 acres of managed ground that had everything grouse need and we had stopped all hunting. Now you never hear one drum in the spring and I have only flushed maybe 5 in many many years. No one knows what happened, it just happened. Now DNR did not retsict hunting, but like I said we did. If it was hunting related we should not have lost our bird population on these farms. So before we get all pissed that no one is doing enough....just consider it may be out of our control, but we should still try

[Turkeyman]

Eggshell...what would you attribute that to? Weather changes...predation or what?

[THattaway]

I can't tell you on a internet forum what I do, I mean would do.

Faster horses, younger women, older whisky...... and more money!!!!!!!

[saltysenior]

I'd be focused on promoting trapping furbearers, cause the fur market sucks right now. And it's showing the effects it has on our turkey population.

I would go so far as to suggest state-sponsored bounties on skunk, possum, raccoon, fox and coyote

   you forgot hawks , crows and owls...

[saltysenior]

Heck...habit-wise...none of my hunting areas have changed one iota in all the years I've hunted them. So the decline in turkeys in that environment can't be attributed to that. Sticking to weather and predators.

forgot disease

[eggshell]

Eggshell...what would you attribute that to? Weather changes...predation or what?

If I had an answer to that I'd be very popular in the hunting/game management arenas. Theories is all anyone has. My top two suspicions are disease and weather. Some of my old die hard Grouse buddies blamed turkeys for bringing in disease and competition, but I find that hard to swallow. As I have read through all these post one factor I keep coming back to is weather. It's a common denominator across the country. we also have a lot of disease transmission across the globe in this modern era. West Nile was hard on avian species and there is a study looking at that in ruffed Grouse now. Just look at how quick Covid spread, it truly is a global biome