Turkey hunting forum for turkey hunting tips

Since we are "whiling away" the dog days of summer....
We have been hammering on turkey numbers going down, hunter numbers going up, the impacts of modern hunting methods, and social media.  So, if you were in charge in your state, what would you do relating to hunting regulations?  (Keep in mind that we are not talking about factors outside of hunting that are the REAL culprits,...i.e...reproductive failure due to the myriad factors we have discussed previously)

I'll start.  (focusing on spring gobbler season here)

Although I do not believe there is an immediate concern for changing our spring hunt regulations here, I am somewhat concerned with hunter-number increases and corresponding harvest increases.  If these trends continue and we begin to see significant declines in gobbler numbers, these would be the changes I would like to see implemented here:

Currently, our season dates are April 15th to May 10th every year.  I would not change these dates.  Breeding has been under way for at least a couple of weeks before the season starts and the season length is more than adequate.  Shotguns and bows only,...no rifles.

Currently, the bag limit is two-gobblers, both of which can be shot on the same day.  I would immediately implement a one-gobbler-a-day regulation (have recommended this since day one) and two per season.  If trends were to continue downward, I would go to a one-bird season limit in a heartbeat, although I would be inclined to try a split-season bag limit first (i.e...one gobbler in the first two weeks and one more in the last two weeks,...or something similar).  Another option would be to go to "zone management" with one-bird limits in each.

Currently, roost shooting is not illegal (it used to be but our Game Department inexplicably removed that regulation a couple of years ago).  I would immediately reinstate the regulation against roost shooting. 

IF gobbler numbers continued downward, my final solution would be to go to limited-permit hunting with all permits allotted through a draw, and with the state broken down into zones based on regional turkey population estimates.  Nonresidents would be restricted to a small percentage (10%+/-) of the permits in the initial draw with additional opportunity if there were permits left over.   

Regarding our fall season, as of now, I don't believe we have enough fall hunters or harvest to warrant any changes,...but again, I am keeping my eye on our turkey population trends and would reduce fall hunting/harvest in a heartbeat if needed.   

AZ is 1 bird and requires being drawn with 10% of the tags allocated to NR. NM as you know is 2 tags over the counter. If I lived in either state, I would prefer the NM model of 2 tags OTC, but dating back to 1991, I've hunted both states often on the same trip and I will say IMO, that AZ is a much better calibre hunt. All my hunting has been DIY on NF land.

One of my best areas was levels by a hurricane . This area had a rising population, I have killed se real gobblers in this area. This year I called a gobbler in and let him walk . I harvested 1 gobbler this year.  I did not go out of state. The one gobbler I killed was on ground with a rebounding population. Turkey numbers are rising in this limited access area.

We just decreased our spring bag limited, so i will wait and see how this all pan's out... WE didn't have as many people turkey hunting this pass spring as we did the Covid spring..

Most likely I would go with one bird a day, two bird per season limit. In areas that are struggling I would allow blinds and decoys only by special permit for the physically handicapped. No rifles or roost shooting as well as a ban on fanning. Hunting hours from daylight to 1pm.

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If I recall correctly, AL banned decoys for the first week or two of season.  Banning dekes or male turkey decoys as some have suggested may lower the success rate.  The one thing in harvests I've noticed is an increase in success rate since gobbler/jake decoys have seen a big rise in popularity.
I like that AL implemented it for a limited part of the season so they can study the effects.
Whether it's better calls, better shells, the sheer number of hunters, or even better hunters who travel a lot, I think the harvest rate plays into the shortage of birds we are experiencing. 
I agree with Gobblenut on most every point except maybe his season could be set back a week.  Limiting birds by day or week of season will lower harvests or as OK partially did, lower the limit by county, WMA or even regions.
You could go the Texas route, most land is private and they charge the snot outta folks to hunt it and limit them to two birds at that.  I live in the part of Texas with Easterns, our limit has never been more than one. :z-twocents:

The most sensible solution is banning stupid harvest methods. No rifle or pistol hunting of turkeys. Definitely no roost shooting. Who does this anyway, and why would states allow this?
If that doesn't help the problem, go after issues that obviously impact turkey populations. No hen harvests, in fall or spring. No Jake harvests either. This will immediately be beneficial to turkey populations. More hens mean more breeding, and more jakes lead to more gobblers the following season, which also means more breeding.
If that still doesn't achieve the desired results, then a reduction in the bag limits is a must!! Cut the bag limit to 2, or 1.
Another idea that has merit is limiting the harvest in the early season when a lot of the breeding is being done. SC currently limits a hunter to one gobbler in the 1st ten days. Personally I would increase that to 2 weeks. This also limits non-resident harvests, since most guys only travel to a state on one trip.
I don't think banning select hunting techniques would have much effect. I don't think fanning, for example, is done that much, or results in a large number of harvests.
If none of the techniques I mentioned above achieved the desired results of a turkey population rebound, then I would take drastic measures.
First I would encourage predator hunting. I would make it legal year round by any technique for all turkey or turkey nest predators, other than poison. In SC the DNR releases 1 tagged coyote a year in each of the state's 4 game zones. Any hunter who bags a tagged coyote gets a free lifetime hunting license. This encourages hunters to shoot every coyote they see.
Next, if none of that achieved the desired results, I would use the method that would be highly unpopular, but surely effective. I would put a one year moratorium on hunting turkeys. That would surely make the population rebound. It might even take 2 years.
On a side note, eliminating rifle and pistol hunting, roost shooting, jake and hen harvests, and moratoriums on turkey hunting would surely reduce the number of turkey "hunters" in the woods, which would reduce the harvests and help the populations.
What do y'all think of those ideas? :popcorn:  :lol:

Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

Quote from: RutnNStrutn on July 20, 2021, 04:49:53 PM
The most sensible solution is banning stupid harvest methods. No rifle or pistol hunting of turkeys. Definitely no roost shooting. Who does this anyway, and why would states allow this?
If that doesn't help the problem, go after issues that obviously impact turkey populations. No hen harvests, in fall or spring. No Jake harvests either. This will immediately be beneficial to turkey populations. More hens mean more breeding, and more jakes lead to more gobblers the following season, which also means more breeding.
If that still doesn't achieve the desired results, then a reduction in the bag limits is a must!! Cut the bag limit to 2, or 1.
Another idea that has merit is limiting the harvest in the early season when a lot of the breeding is being done. SC currently limits a hunter to one gobbler in the 1st ten days. Personally I would increase that to 2 weeks. This also limits non-resident harvests, since most guys only travel to a state on one trip.
I don't think banning select hunting techniques would have much effect. I don't think fanning, for example, is done that much, or results in a large number of harvests.
If none of the techniques I mentioned above achieved the desired results of a turkey population rebound, then I would take drastic measures.
First I would encourage predator hunting. I would make it legal year round by any technique for all turkey or turkey nest predators, other than poison. In SC the DNR releases 1 tagged coyote a year in each of the state's 4 game zones. Any hunter who bags a tagged coyote gets a free lifetime hunting license. This encourages hunters to shoot every coyote they see.
Next, if none of that achieved the desired results, I would use the method that would be highly unpopular, but surely effective. I would put a one year moratorium on hunting turkeys. That would surely make the population rebound. It might even take 2 years.
On a side note, eliminating rifle and pistol hunting, roost shooting, jake and hen harvests, and moratoriums on turkey hunting would surely reduce the number of turkey "hunters" in the woods, which would reduce the harvests and help the populations.
What do y'all think of those ideas? :popcorn:

Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

I totally agree on predator hunting , I think the lack of trapping and more corn feeders on the landscape = more raccoons than in the 80 s

   I think New Jersey should have a Spring Gobbler Bag Limit of 3 Gobblers Max.
   

I'm in PA. I would eliminate the second tag first. Then close the fall season next. Jakes for kids only.

Personally, I've done those things myself already.

I'd be focused on promoting trapping furbearers, cause the fur market sucks right now. And it's showing the effects it has on our turkey population.

I can't tell you on a internet forum what I do, I mean would do.

1st off, Thank you GobbleNut for appointing me, Director of the WVDNR. Thank you!

Season would start at the traditional time of 3rd Monday in April, and run 4 full weeks. Good bye early week!

Rewards for prosecuted poachers would be raised, alot, and vary with the severity of the offenses. Fines for poached turkeys would be substantial, per offense, and mandatory. Loss of hunting privilege for poaching of turkey.

I would hand pick three Analyst to review the last 21 years of harvest data for wild turkey. I want year, month, day, county, and region of all turkeys that were killed. Including fall harvests. I also want to know of the turkeys harvested how many hunters harvested 2 turkeys in WV in one season, Tagged out.

This information will give the obvious, plus confirm or deny a growing hunter population. My state did not in the past, have a turkey permit, now we do "Thank you new Director" . Minimal amount, 10$ per tag. Purchased one at a time, second tag only after first turkey checked in. This does not promote a hunter to fill a tag on a jake last day of season.

If it were documented that hunter numbers were increasing, a serious look at bag limits would have to be looked at. Currently, we have a two male turkey limit in the spring. I am not sure what it is in the fall. It varies per region I think, currently.

If data shows a decline in harvest in a region (Multiple counties per Region) for three consecutive years fall turkey hunting would be by lottery permit. I would have to appoint some one to come up with an appropriate number of permits per Region. I would like to reduce my hen harvest by 75% after the 3 year consecutive decline.

If after 3 years of my Lottery has not changed the population to the better, a reduction in the Region of the spring bag limits would be needed, reduced to 1.

If this hasn't helped, reduction of season length may need to be looked at. Hard to do this per Region as I feal it will displace hunters to an adjacent Region and impact the harvest of that Region negatively.

If after 3 more years the population has not increased the Region is CLOSED to ALL turkey harvesting. Again, hard to do this as it would most certainly displace turkey hunters to an adjacent Region and poaching would increase in the Region I am trying to protect.

Concurrently while these items are taking place I am using my 10$ permit fees to promote predator control. Bounties have been done by many states and parties for a long time. They are very corrupt and easily taken advantage of. Mostly, they do not work. But, for resident licensed hunters and trappers we could put a monetary value on predators towards license fees or in the form of gift cards. But, no cash paid. To expand on this, as a hobby trapper I can say there is NO value in fur today with today's market. But, the DNR adding a 3$ value to a coon would raise the value of that coon to somewhere around 7$. That's not a good average, but it's better than 4$ if catching hundreds of coon. We would do this for skunk, possum as well. Exploring if fox, cat, coyote would make a significant difference, they could be added as well.

This as Director is what I can do immediately. I can also hire new Biologists to help in research of mortality and nesting success. The Biologist can also research the weather trends for the past years so we can have a base line so as what to expect out of future harvests.

In my mind there is not a quick fix to this situation. Some states may already be beyond my first few steps. They may need a more hard fast attack at this problem.

This is as we all know, is a multi facet problem. Some of it we can not control, but at a minimum, learn what to expect. Many states have already found the correlation between weather, nesting, and poult survival. They should know what to expect for the year concerning poult survival due to weather.

Open up unlimited trapping of coons and other nest raiders all year long.

Open up bobcat season. They are plentiful. We need a season for them.

I would completely eliminate the ability to shoot any hens at any time of year.  Let the hens go! Allowing hens to be shot has to have a negative impact on turkey populations.

I would make the limit one adult gobbler for anyone over 16. One male turkey, jake or tom, for kids under 16.

Quote from: WV Flopper on July 20, 2021, 08:22:04 PM
1st off, Thank you GobbleNut for appointing me, Director of the WVDNR. Thank you!

Season would start at the traditional time of 3rd Monday in April, and run 4 full weeks. Good bye early week!

Rewards for prosecuted poachers would be raised, alot, and vary with the severity of the offenses. Fines for poached turkeys would be substantial, per offense, and mandatory. Loss of hunting privilege for poaching of turkey.

I would hand pick three Analyst to review the last 21 years of harvest data for wild turkey. I want year, month, day, county, and region of all turkeys that were killed. Including fall harvests. I also want to know of the turkeys harvested how many hunters harvested 2 turkeys in WV in one season, Tagged out.

This information will give the obvious, plus confirm or deny a growing hunter population. My state did not in the past, have a turkey permit, now we do "Thank you new Director" . Minimal amount, 10$ per tag. Purchased one at a time, second tag only after first turkey checked in. This does not promote a hunter to fill a tag on a jake last day of season.

If it were documented that hunter numbers were increasing, a serious look at bag limits would have to be looked at. Currently, we have a two male turkey limit in the spring. I am not sure what it is in the fall. It varies per region I think, currently.

If data shows a decline in harvest in a region (Multiple counties per Region) for three consecutive years fall turkey hunting would be by lottery permit. I would have to appoint some one to come up with an appropriate number of permits per Region. I would like to reduce my hen harvest by 75% after the 3 year consecutive decline.

If after 3 years of my Lottery has not changed the population to the better, a reduction in the Region of the spring bag limits would be needed, reduced to 1.

If this hasn't helped, reduction of season length may need to be looked at. Hard to do this per Region as I feal it will displace hunters to an adjacent Region and impact the harvest of that Region negatively.

If after 3 more years the population has not increased the Region is CLOSED to ALL turkey harvesting. Again, hard to do this as it would most certainly displace turkey hunters to an adjacent Region and poaching would increase in the Region I am trying to protect.

Concurrently while these items are taking place I am using my 10$ permit fees to promote predator control. Bounties have been done by many states and parties for a long time. They are very corrupt and easily taken advantage of. Mostly, they do not work. But, for resident licensed hunters and trappers we could put a monetary value on predators towards license fees or in the form of gift cards. But, no cash paid. To expand on this, as a hobby trapper I can say there is NO value in fur today with today's market. But, the DNR adding a 3$ value to a coon would raise the value of that coon to somewhere around 7$. That's not a good average, but it's better than 4$ if catching hundreds of coon. We would do this for skunk, possum as well. Exploring if fox, cat, coyote would make a significant difference, they could be added as well.

This as Director is what I can do immediately. I can also hire new Biologists to help in research of mortality and nesting success. The Biologist can also research the weather trends for the past years so we can have a base line so as what to expect out of future harvests.

In my mind there is not a quick fix to this situation. Some states may already be beyond my first few steps. They may need a more hard fast attack at this problem.

This is as we all know, is a multi facet problem. Some of it we can not control, but at a minimum, learn what to expect. Many states have already found the correlation between weather, nesting, and poult survival. They should know what to expect for the year concerning poult survival due to weather.

WV - I can't believe you didn't drop the rifles being legal.
I've seen more than one bird in WV killed by a .270 Turkey Express!

 I do not care if you use a rifle, it's not for me, but I don't care. It hasn't caused a significant amount of safety issues, and if the law is followed about legal shooting times..... I don't care.

When I was 14-15 I didn't have a shotgun to use. I used a 270, with 90 grain Sierr@ 's loaded down with (I believe) 4759 powder, "I think" to something like 1300 FPS.

I haven't loaded one of those for 30 couple years.

There would be no such thing as private ground, everywhere would be open to hunt. The season would open early March and run until late May. There would be absolutely no bag limit and there would be no daily limit.

BUT, I would be the only person allowed to hunt  ;)

I might not be a very popular Turkey Czar of Arkansas if I could set the season regulations.  First I'll say that we have had some fairly conservative seasons (opening dates, season lengths, and Jakes) for some time with a population that has continued to decline all the while because of poor hatches.   But, on the subject at hand I would do as follows:

This is our current structure:
*Monday opener around April 20th (I would keep this in place for the time being)
*Season length of about 21 days, recently expanded after years of 16 day seasons.  (Keep in place)
*2 gobbler bag limit (I would keep this in place for the time being).  Likely around the same number of total gobblers would be killed as with 1 bag limit.  This would be my first change to consider though in following years if poor hatches continue. 
*No bearded hens  (Keep this in place)
*No jakes for adults / Limit of 1 jake per youth hunter (Keep this in place).
*Youth hunt weekend / 1 week prior to opening of regular season.  (Keep this in place)
*All day hunting (Keep this in place)
*No fall season. (Keep this in place).  I love to fall hunt, but as long as baiting with corn is legal for deer, it needs to remain closed.   If I did open a fall season, it would be 1 adult gobbler only and part of an annual 2 bag limit. 
*Draw only permits on select WMAs (Keep in place, but review participating WMAs and hunts)
*Limit of 1 per first 7 days of season....new for 2021 (Keep in place)
*Limit of 1 per WMA per season....new for 2021 (Keep this in place)

If you are familiar with Arkansas, we have our share of outlaws that adhere to very few laws, so these last two probably get abused.  But, you can't regulate for what poachers might do. 

Changes I would make....
*Mandatory Turkey Permit required to hunt - $15 to $20.  All money goes to turkey habitat
*Hard copy turkey tags... peel and attach (required)
*Prohibit Reaping and Fanning
*Prohibit Electronic Decoys
*Prohibit use of gobbler and jake decoys

Not a season structure regulation, but I would push to increase gate closures and limit vehicle access on side roads / log roads. 

Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 20, 2021, 10:11:25 PM

Not a season structure regulation, but I would push to increase gate closures and limit vehicle access on side roads / log roads.

The really good thing about this proposal is that the advocate, if lucky, will live long enough to regret it.  Advanced age, a stroke and low blood pressure (and high) are a booger to live with.

Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 20, 2021, 10:11:25 PMNot a season structure regulation, but I would push to increase gate closures and limit vehicle access on side roads / log roads.

Hmmm. Would that actually affect turkey populations? I think the private land hunters harvest much greater numbers of turkeys than public land hunters. Not sure that would be a benefit to turkey numbers.


Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

I have read what seems like 10,000 post on this topic and I have considered the many different laws in many states. I have been at this game for 50 years seen the boom in populations and the leveling off. I do have a degree in wildlife management and a 30+ year career in a Wildlife Agency. Although my career was in fisheries, i had access to the turkey programs and my staff worked on turkey trap and transplant projects and we ran a check station for harvest.

I have come to a conclusion on the population declines and they are not an easy fix. The number one problem is recruitment ( in layman's language, new turkeys surviving to adults ). Nest and brood survival has dropped dramatically. Three main things contribute to this: Weather, depredation and habitat in that order. We cannot control weather at this time (insert debate over climate change). Depredation of nest is a primary reducer, but also of poults, but we can impact predator numbers. Habitat is degrading and disappearing. This is controllable, but socially unacceptable. People are selfish at heart and want whatever luxuries they can obtain. Timbering, developement and farming practices are degrading much of our turkey habitats, but turkeys are phenomenally adaptive. I see so much land being developed  as a bigger impact. So many places large tracks are busted up into lots and built on. It interferes with turkey movement and reduces available habitat.

Here is the worst news, I'd guess 80% of the citizens of the U.S. don't give a crap. They just want to live the good life and have zero concern for wildlife outside of seeing some at a park on vacation. Next are the politicians and most of them have even less concern.

Regulating harvest is only a reactionary aspect and unlikely to fix anything longterm. It's very much like the reaction to covid 19. We didn't know what else to do so our government shut down the economy, demanded mask and restricted our movement. For the most part all it done was stretch out and prolong the inevitable, until we had a real solution (vaccines). We still ended up with the same results it just took longer to get there. Did it save a few lives, probably. Yet, in the end we still suffered a devastating loss of life and we continue to suffer, both economically and  physically. Even after all we've seen, people still have hardened hearts and resist change.

What makes us think we will accept necessary changes to save something as small in value to the general public as the "Wild Turkey". Our only hope is we have dedicated conservationist in our DNRs and at least some politicians. So please let's not put all the blame on those who hold our only hope. I can assure you they care and they are working on it.     

Quote from: falltoms on July 20, 2021, 06:22:46 PM
I'd be focused on promoting trapping furbearers, cause the fur market sucks right now. And it's showing the effects it has on our turkey population.

I would go so far as to suggest state-sponsored bounties on skunk, possum, raccoon, fox and coyote

Revisiting some of the timbering practices in the areas I hunt would be necessary as well

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Good post Eggshell!  I agree with a lot of what you say.  I have always known that a wet spring equaled a bad hatch and was not a good thing, but I have not considered prolonged weather patterns and their affect.  That is definitely something to consider.  I might would move habitat to #1 only because I believe excellent habitat will help turkeys survive predators and bad weather. 

Quote from: silvestris on July 21, 2021, 12:51:06 AM

Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 20, 2021, 10:11:25 PM

Not a season structure regulation, but I would push to increase gate closures and limit vehicle access on side roads / log roads.

The really good thing about this proposal is that the advocate, if lucky, will live long enough to regret it.  Advanced age, a stroke and low blood pressure (and high) are a booger to live with.

I understand that completely....100%!!   But, in Arkansas every log road and every trail is wore out with vehicles, 4 Wheelers, and side by sides.  Even in small areas where it isn't necessarily.  I'm not talking about shutting down every single road, but some need to be closed.

Arkansas is the perfect example that we can't regulate our way out of a population decline.   

1. Eliminate any hen harvests, whether they have a beard or not.
2. No longer allow any decoys (including tail fans, man made or natural).
3. No hunting allowed on Wednesday or Sunday.
4. Eliminate harvest of any tom with less than a 6" beard, with exception for youth hunters, under age 18.
5. No ammo allowed other than plain lead in size #6 or smaller, 2 3/4" loads only. Extra full or "turkey chokes" are legal.
6. Zone our state, and allow 2 toms/season in a couple of zones and 1 tom/season in the remaining zones.
7. Clothing must contain a minimum of 400 cubic centimeters of clearly visable flourescent orange.
8. Hunter is allowed two rounds of ammo in possession in the field.
9. Scopes made illegal.
10. Shooting hours close at 6 p.m. statewide.
11. Pop-up, enclosed blinds made illegal. Natural concealment or natural blind still legal.

I believe this would reduce our statewide harvest by at least 1/3. If you wanted to really make it fun, you could make all calls illegal, say for just the first week of the season, with the exception of your natural voice. I know this is half the fun of turkey hunting to many, and it would piss the callmakers big time, but it is another level of accomplishment to call one in with just your voice. And yes, rule #7 might be a bit much. LOL

Quote from: eggshell on July 21, 2021, 07:47:44 AM
I have read what seems like 10,000 post on this topic and I have considered the many different laws in many states. I have been at this game for 50 years seen the boom in populations and the leveling off. I do have a degree in wildlife management and a 30+ year career in a Wildlife Agency. Although my career was in fisheries, i had access to the turkey programs and my staff worked on turkey trap and transplant projects and we ran a check station for harvest.

I have come to a conclusion on the population declines and they are not an easy fix. The number one problem is recruitment ( in layman's language, new turkeys surviving to adults ). Nest and brood survival has dropped dramatically. Three main things contribute to this: Weather, depredation and habitat in that order. We cannot control weather at this time (insert debate over climate change). Depredation of nest is a primary reducer, but also of poults, but we can impact predator numbers. Habitat is degrading and disappearing. This is controllable, but socially unacceptable. People are selfish at heart and want whatever luxuries they can obtain. Timbering, developement and farming practices are degrading much of our turkey habitats, but turkeys are phenomenally adaptive. I see so much land being developed  as a bigger impact. So many places large tracks are busted up into lots and built on. It interferes with turkey movement and reduces available habitat.

Here is the worst news, I'd guess 80% of the citizens of the U.S. don't give a crap. They just want to live the good life and have zero concern for wildlife outside of seeing some at a park on vacation. Next are the politicians and most of them have even less concern.

Regulating harvest is only a reactionary aspect and unlikely to fix anything longterm. It's very much like the reaction to covid 19. We didn't know what else to do so our government shut down the economy, demanded mask and restricted our movement. For the most part all it done was stretch out and prolong the inevitable, until we had a real solution (vaccines). We still ended up with the same results it just took longer to get there. Did it save a few lives, probably. Yet, in the end we still suffered a devastating loss of life and we continue to suffer, both economically and  physically. Even after all we've seen, people still have hardened hearts and resist change.

What makes us think we will accept necessary changes to save something as small in value to the general public as the "Wild Turkey". Our only hope is we have dedicated conservationist in our DNRs and at least some politicians. So please let's not put all the blame on those who hold our only hope. I can assure you they care and they are working on it.   

Hey eggshell - We hear a lot of talk about later starting dates to help
ensure more hens get bred. What about the benefit of shorter seasons
in regards to recruitment. Specifically, by hunters bumping hens off of
nests for a shorter time period, would that help with predator satiation,
thereby increasing recruitment?

I wonder if someone has compared population declines in states with
shorter seasons, like Missouri and Kentucky, against states that have longer seasons.

QuoteHey eggshell - We hear a lot of talk about later starting dates to help
ensure more hens get bred. What about the benefit of shorter seasons
in regards to recruitment. Specifically, by hunters bumping hens off of
nests for a shorter time period, would that help with predator satiation,
thereby increasing recruitment?

I wonder if someone has compared population declines in states with
shorter seasons, like Missouri and Kentucky, against states that have longer seasons.

Jimspur, I will answer in respect to Ohio, were I live. I live right in the turkey woods and I listen to turkeys all year around and start monitoring the activity in the spring in March. MOst years I hear groups of gobblers and see flocks with strutters and hens up until about the 7-10th of April. Gobbling starts about mid to late March., but they are mostly developing a pecking order. By the April dates I hear gobblers on the same areas or strut zones daily. Then they go quiet for about two weeks and I think that is our prime breeding period. Hens are flocked up with gobblers and actively breeding. Then I start seeing less hens and hear more gobbling about the third  week and this coincides with the opening of our season. You will continue to see hens with gobblers and breeding happening, but it's less all the time. I think by the end of April most hens are bred. I think our season is OK. I do realize some states open during the period I spoke of that is equivalent to the second week of April for us and yes I think that hurts as hunters interfere.

Here's the kicker. All these opening dates were in existence when flocks were booming and expanding. My question  is why would it affect breeding now when it didn't then? In a crisis situation yes anything that preserves a hen and her nest is an improvement. So a shorter season or shorter days (like noon stoppage) may save a few, it's not the end all - save all. There is a bigger problem/problems. I think what we are seeing is not a single problem, but a compound problem with two or three things existing as co-morbities. I don't know if anyone has compared existing seasons.   

I hear ya eggshell. My primary hunting area is the northern zone of NY. Hunting pressure is generally a non-factor...it is no different now than years ago. The turkey numbers are significantly lower than several years ago. In the fall I used to see in the neighborhood of 50 to 100 birds in a flock. Now if I see a flock of 10 or so that's a lot.

My analysis? 1) too many rainy and cold successive springs, 2) too many predators, both four-legged and winged. I don't see any habitat changes affecting turkey numbers where I hunt. Thus, IMO, if our NYSDEC were to change hunting regs for turkeys it will make no difference in the decline. It wont/cant address or change #1 and #2.

Quote from: eggshell on July 21, 2021, 02:55:39 PM

QuoteHey eggshell - We hear a lot of talk about later starting dates to help
ensure more hens get bred. What about the benefit of shorter seasons
in regards to recruitment. Specifically, by hunters bumping hens off of
nests for a shorter time period, would that help with predator satiation,
thereby increasing recruitment?

I wonder if someone has compared population declines in states with
shorter seasons, like Missouri and Kentucky, against states that have longer seasons.

Jimspur, I will answer in respect to Ohio, were I live. I live right in the turkey woods and I listen to turkeys all year around and start monitoring the activity in the spring in March. MOst years I hear groups of gobblers and see flocks with strutters and hens up until about the 7-10th of April. Gobbling starts about mid to late March., but they are mostly developing a pecking order. By the April dates I hear gobblers on the same areas or strut zones daily. Then they go quiet for about two weeks and I think that is our prime breeding period. Hens are flocked up with gobblers and actively breeding. Then I start seeing less hens and hear more gobbling about the third  week and this coincides with the opening of our season. You will continue to see hens with gobblers and breeding happening, but it's less all the time. I think by the end of April most hens are bred. I think our season is OK. I do realize some states open during the period I spoke of that is equivalent to the second week of April for us and yes I think that hurts as hunters interfere.

Here's the kicker. All these opening dates were in existence when flocks were booming and expanding. My question  is why would it affect breeding now when it didn't then? In a crisis situation yes anything that preserves a hen and her nest is an improvement. So a shorter season or shorter days (like noon stoppage) may save a few, it's not the end all - save all. There is a bigger problem/problems. I think what we are seeing is not a single problem, but a compound problem with two or three things existing as co-morbities. I don't know if anyone has compared existing seasons.

Hey eggshell, thanks for replying. What I was trying to get at is with
greater numbers of hunters than ever tromping through the woods,
maybe more hens than ever are getting bumped off their nests.
Your flocks were booming and expanding when there were less hunters
in those woods, and this is true for flocks everywhere.

When I was talking about shortening seasons, I'm talking about cutting
seasons on the back end, so the turkeys are harassed less, not moving  the starting dates back.

I agree it's a compound problem, and then Turkeyman's post pretty
much blows all of this out of the water.

Not really trying to "blow anything out of the water" but I see what I see...and I've been at this game for close to 50 years.  I see hunting pressure/techniques having no factor whatsoever on overall turkey populations where I hunt. Now...where you hunt may be a different story. It ere what it ere. I'll stick to weather and predators...at least to where I hunt.

Heck...habit-wise...none of my hunting areas have changed one iota in all the years I've hunted them. So the decline in turkeys in that environment can't be attributed to that. Sticking to weather and predators.

Quote from: Turkeyman on July 21, 2021, 04:49:08 PM
Not really trying to "blow anything out of the water" but I see what I see...and I've been at this game for close to 50 years.  I see hunting pressure/techniques having no factor whatsoever on overall turkey populations where I hunt. Now...where you hunt may be a different story. It ere what it ere. I'll stick to weather and predators...at least to where I hunt.

When you say your population has dropped and hunting pressure
didn't have anything to do with it, that's what I meant by blowing
any man-related theories out the window.
Numbers are dropping regardless of man.

Yes...agreed.

Oh, I made an assumption and was wrong sorry Jimspur. Actually, you make a good point and I would be more supportive of closing season sooner on the back end. It's pretty well accepted that a hen who has already been incubating is less likely to renest if interrupted. I have watched hens that nest on my property and if you bump them once they usually return, but do it twice or more and they abandon the nest.

 This is not the thread for it, but I read and read and read HABITAT. I would really like to talk this in a thread one day. A turkey does not require much, but does require four basic things for habitat.

I wouldn't assume I understood the problems, let alone had the answers to them so I would start by listening to the hunters.

Then I would ban out-of-state hunters and you-tubers.  :z-guntootsmiley:

Specifically for Mississippi....and maybe Alabama too.
I would institute a physical tag system. These tags would cost 3x as much for NR hunters as they would resident hunters.

Proceeds from tag sells would fund specifically.....
(1) state sponsored fur bounties on predators (pay significant $ for hides)
(2) burn programs for state owned/leased properties
(3) incentive bonuses for wardens enforcing harvest limits on those who fail to tag/report a harvest (in other words "caught in possession of a non tagged turkey".
(4) eliminate decoy use ... period
(5) eliminate filming hunts on public land
(6) eliminate NR hunting opportunities first week of the season
(7) implement increased Stream Management Zone areas by double...
(8) for every percentage increase that a company charges for lease property, their tax burden would be increased an equal amount to support the wildlife programs mentioned above.

i would like to see the ability to kill predetors year round. if i carried a 22 with me i could take a few out every time i'm in the woods or fishing. there's not a day i commute where i don't see raccoons along the road. granted quite a few are squashed. 

i realize there's concerns of people firing weapons at times of year and day that other users of public land wouldn't expect hunting, but we could make a huge dent if we could do this

Quote from: eggshell on July 21, 2021, 06:44:29 PM
Oh, I made an assumption and was wrong sorry Jimspur. Actually, you make a good point and I would be more supportive of closing season sooner on the back end. It's pretty well accepted that a hen who has already been incubating is less likely to renest if interrupted. I have watched hens that nest on my property and if you bump them once they usually return, but do it twice or more and they abandon the nest.

The only problem with these types of regulations is that they are
band-aids that don't address the root causes. They would only buy you some time, but every little bit helps.

Make hunting hours 10:00 till 2:00 m- f. No weekend hunting.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

      My state INCREASED the number of birds you can take this season from 2 to 3. You are also now allowed to kill two bird in one day for the first time.
      They substatially increased the fall hunting season so bow hunting deer hunters can incidentally shoot a turkey if the want. I hate that.
      We can only hunt until noon, no Sunday hunting. I like that.
      I would go back to a two bird limit if numbers start to decrease. Also, I'd make stalking illegal and allow the use of only hen decoys.

As I've said, we won't regulate our way out of any decline.  I'm convinced in Arkansas that we could close the season for a couple of years and in the long run, it would matter very little, IF other factors aren't addressed.  We have areas that went to draw hunts only, 7-8 years ago, that drastically reduced harvest and improved habitat.  It has not slowed the decline.  While I do think conservative seasons (within reason) are sound management, I caution anyone to believe they will be the answer.  But, I understand it is one of the things we can control. 

Weather has probably been our biggest culprit, in my opinion.  Then you factor in a boom in predators (major decrease in trapping, major increase in corn baiting, introduction of hogs, etc.) over the last 20 years, plus a loss of habitat in many areas.  But, as some have stated, some areas have improved habitat yet have far less turkeys.  I believe good habitat can offset predation issues, yet realistically how can we expect even good habitat to be as effective when predator numbers have tripled or quadrupled in numbers.   Our best hatch by far since 2003 was in 2012.   It was much more dry during April, May, and June.

Wild turkey populations fluctuate , it's just natures way .
We are on a down cycle in my area for sure , a very poor hatch the last 2 years with this year being awful , to wet to have good brooding .   I try to do my part , I trap nest raiders, improve the small private ground I control habitat when I can etc . I also cutt myself short on our limit this past spring , I let my son kill a gobbler and I took 2 , after my second one I decided to not try to take my 3rd one because our numbers of available gobblers was way off from the norm . Some of my hunting circle buddys that actually give a —— about the numbers did the same .
   If I had any say so , I'd propose our state to push our season back a week , change limit from 3 to 2 , stop corn feeders all together. 

There has been a decrease in WNY since 2009. The wildlife biologist finally reacted after complaints from hunters. They took 2 weeks away from the fall 4 week season and 2 five-year studies were done with no solid answers after. For many years, biologists, blamed the hatch on climate, cold and wet. We do get "lake effect" rains off the great lakes but we've had that happening since the beginning of time and during the early 80's when the population was booming. I can drive 4 hours north and east and find better populations, but not like it was. Now the biologist says it's "hunting pressure". So if that's the case then regulate the areas with low numbers. Some years back we had a "split season". If you killed a bird within the first 15 days of the month-long season then you sat out until the second half (15th) of the season for a second bird. That would reduce "hunting pressure" and you still can take two birds. They regulate deer quotas here in certain DMUs, why not for turkeys? What say you?

Good discussion all around.
One constant theme I see from most all of us is the idea that turkey numbers overall have no direct correlation to hunting and are more a function of long-term reproductive success/recruitment that is contingent upon many other factors.  In general, I think we should all be able to agree with that.  Having said that, I personally believe that if hunters are successful in killing enough gobblers from any given population that, at some point, you will not accomplish full breeding of the hen population in that area.  ...And you certainly won't accomplish that if you (potentially) remove EVERY breeding-age gobbler from that population. 

As turkey numbers relate to hunting, there seems to be two schools of thought here. One is that, since hunting is not the culprit in turkey population declines, why punish hunters by reducing hunting opportunity?  The other is that, since turkey numbers are steadily declining over time, we should implement more restrictive hunting regulations to reduce harvest and hope that the birds that are left will eventually have conditions that will allow them to recover more quickly.

In my opinion, both schools of thought have some validity.  However, I personally believe there has to be a tipping point where hunters have to sacrifice for the good of the resource.  That sacrifice can either come voluntarily among hunters through the acknowledgement that there are too few gobblers left in "my woods" and I am going to personally kill less than I legally can,....or that sacrifice can be mandatory by regulation changes that enforce that mind-set whether we agree to it or not. 

From the wildlife manager's standpoint, they are (or should be) really left with only one course of action,...and that is to establish regulations that enforce the reduction of harvest.  They cannot rely on the benevolence of the general hunting community to voluntarily regulate themselves.  It just does not happen in the "real world". 

Now, admittedly, reduction in human harvest rates may eventually not change a thing, as has been noted in the discussions above.  The declines we are seeing may be irreversible due to factors beyond our control, and that are not in the least bit related to human hunting.  The question remains, however, that IF we reduce the human element, will that play a part in any potential recovery of turkey numbers?  From the direction we are going in a lot of areas of the country, it appears we are going to eventually find out.... 

Quote from: tracker#1 on July 22, 2021, 08:53:00 AM
There has been a decrease in WNY since 2009. The wildlife biologist finally reacted after complaints from hunters. They took 2 weeks away from the fall 4 week season and 2 five-year studies were done with no solid answers after. For many years, biologists, blamed the hatch on climate, cold and wet. We do get "lake effect" rains off the great lakes but we've had that happening since the beginning of time and during the early 80's when the population was booming. I can drive 4 hours north and east and find better populations, but not like it was. Now the biologist says it's "hunting pressure". So if that's the case then regulate the areas with low numbers. Some years back we had a "split season". If you killed a bird within the first 15 days of the month-long season then you sat out until the second half (15th) of the season for a second bird. That would reduce "hunting pressure" and you still can take two birds. They regulate deer quotas here in certain DMUs, why not for turkeys? What say you?

A couple of points to be made regarding your comments: 
The first is that the CLIMATE is changing,...and the general climate changes are resulting in more specific WEATHER changes in many places.  Both are impacting the ecosystem in many ways,...and for a lot of different organisms on the planet.  Your comment about conditions being more favorable for turkeys further north could be weather-related in that isolated weather conditions have favored reproductive success in those areas.

However, climate changes are also resulting in northward migration of organisms that might negatively affect turkeys, as well.  For instance, parasites that could not survive in the northern states just decades ago, assumingly due to the environmental conditions they faced, are now thriving. An example of this phenomenon might be the increasing tick problems the northern states seem to be facing.  Could there be parasites/diseases that impact turkeys gradually migrating northward that wildlife biologists have not even identified as potential limiting factors for turkeys?  In my opinion, most certainly.   

Second point in answer to your ending question:  Yes, proper wildlife management should be (logically) dictated on specific, often regional, turkey population numbers that are a function of specific habitat/environmental conditions.  Managing a turkey population in one region that is a fraction of what exists in another, and may be in an entirely different habitat type...and doing that just because both lie within a state's borders,...is ridiculous. 

"Enlightened" game management (such as what you suggest) is not really all that difficult if there is the initiative, willpower, and (unfortunately) the political will to pursue it. Some states seem to have that combination of elements a lot more than others.  In addition, too often wildlife managers make decisions based on trying to "simplify" things rather than what is best for the resource they are managing.  And again, unfortunately, politics (and money) always seems to muddle the entire process. 

I would allow rifles and make every state a 2 week season at the exact same time. 2 bird limit one per week.

Quote from: GobbleNut on July 22, 2021, 09:14:01 AM
I personally believe there has to be a tipping point where hunters have to sacrifice for the good of the resource.

Does this smack of turkey communism?  If so, Uncle Joe will be all over it.

Hey, I'll throw another potato in the pot.

Sometimes, crap just happens and there is nothing we can do about it. we'd like to think we can manage, but it's not always possible.

Here's an example: In my younger days, before wild turkeys were a big thing I was a ruffed grouse fanatic and I hunted them just as passionately as turkeys today. We had tons of them and you could move 20+ birds a lot of days and limits weren't unusual. I hunted thousands of acres of private land and much of it I was the only grouse hunter or one of 2 or 3. We would run  the dogs before season and get an idea of how many birds our farm held and when we killed 40% of them we quit that farm. They fluctuated some but it was a known cycle. We manged habitat with different age clear cuts and maintaining field edges. We had birds for 40 years and then they started disappearing and the same habitat practices where in place. I reduced my kill numbers and finally quit killing them at all. In a matter of 10 years, even with zero hunting,  they were gone. This is almost 2,000 acres of managed ground that had everything grouse need and we had stopped all hunting. Now you never hear one drum in the spring and I have only flushed maybe 5 in many many years. No one knows what happened, it just happened. Now DNR did not retsict hunting, but like I said we did. If it was hunting related we should not have lost our bird population on these farms. So before we get all pissed that no one is doing enough....just consider it may be out of our control, but we should still try

Eggshell...what would you attribute that to? Weather changes...predation or what?

Quote from: guesswho on July 20, 2021, 07:46:32 PM
I can't tell you on a internet forum what I do, I mean would do.

Faster horses, younger women, older whisky...... and more money!!!!!!!

Quote from: Yoder409 on July 21, 2021, 08:50:06 AM

Quote from: falltoms on July 20, 2021, 06:22:46 PM
I'd be focused on promoting trapping furbearers, cause the fur market sucks right now. And it's showing the effects it has on our turkey population.

I would go so far as to suggest state-sponsored bounties on skunk, possum, raccoon, fox and coyote

   you forgot hawks , crows and owls...

Quote from: Turkeyman on July 21, 2021, 04:56:55 PM
Heck...habit-wise...none of my hunting areas have changed one iota in all the years I've hunted them. So the decline in turkeys in that environment can't be attributed to that. Sticking to weather and predators.

forgot disease

Quote from: Turkeyman on July 22, 2021, 04:34:33 PM
Eggshell...what would you attribute that to? Weather changes...predation or what?

If I had an answer to that I'd be very popular in the hunting/game management arenas. Theories is all anyone has. My top two suspicions are disease and weather. Some of my old die hard Grouse buddies blamed turkeys for bringing in disease and competition, but I find that hard to swallow. As I have read through all these post one factor I keep coming back to is weather. It's a common denominator across the country. we also have a lot of disease transmission across the globe in this modern era. West Nile was hard on avian species and there is a study looking at that in ruffed Grouse now. Just look at how quick Covid spread, it truly is a global biome