We all have discussed the best shell, choke and gun combo to death. One thing that I have noticed we haven't talked very much about is how quickly our combos kill turkeys. Clark got me thinking about Terminal Energy. Putting an extreme amount of shot in a turkeys head and neck to cause instant death (NO FLOPPAGE). I know Dead is Dead but shouldn't we talk about how clean our kills are, especially since we debate 3 1/2 inch vs 3 inch and #4 lead over #10 TSS. With today's tight patterns, more shot in the head and neck plus density of the shot plus velocity should equal quick humane kills vs us having to run to put our foot on the neck or even worse having to shoot the bird again or crippling a bird. Most of my kills are from an 835 with 3 1/2" Hevi 7's with no floppage or very, very minimal floppage (Terminal Energy) at 15 to 38 yards. Input?
It may look the same to some but there is a difference in flopping (broke neck shuffle is what I call it, involuntary convulsions etc.) and a turkey flopping with his head up or trying to right himself, gasping for air etc. You can cut one's head clean off and still have a pile of flopping. A turkey falling over stone dead without moving after being shot is not the norm in my experience. Seems to me if you rush out and touch them they seem to struggle even more.
First bird I shot last year I was amazed at the bird just dropping and not making a move. A buddy was with me and he also killed. He videoed the hunt and when I watched the video my bird did in fact flop. I would have given my right leg saying he never moved but he did. Made me wonder how many other times in the heat of the moment I thought one did not flop when he did.
Now I did shoot a bird later in the year that I thought I missed, he was with a group. I shot and they all scattered and I could not see my bird in ground and there was no flopping. I was sure I missed. Was trying to call back one of the other birds for a friend but they never came. After a few minutes, as I was starting to tear up, my bird starting flopping. Never been so happy to see a flopping bird.
I what I am trying to say is the heat of the moment makes us miss things and some birds will flop and some will not, not matter what you shoot.
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What causes a bird to not flop? I've seen videos where bow hunters are cutting off these birds heads and they still flop. Are those not clean kills? In my mind as long as he goes down I don't care how long he flops.
I'm pretty sure there is no answer to this. I've had em fall like a rock and some flopped for a mile it seemed. I've bleeding heads clean off and they flopped like no tomorrow. I've shot them with about all shot material available as well. No answer imo. It's different on every one. Doesn't matter to me..flop or no flop...just as long as we get to play the game and they ride home with me
I grew up raising chickens and turkeys. I have killed thousands of them and here is my theory. You can completely severe the head and they still flop. Sometimes it's delayed but most times not. However I do believe the is an immediate "shutdown" spot in the head. I believe if this spot is hit with sufficient energy then that's when you get the no flop result. With today's super tight patterns I just think we see it more. I personally have only show one that didn't flop. It did quiver for a few seconds tho. Just a theory and probably wrong.
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Quote from: THattaway on February 19, 2017, 02:47:08 PM
It may look the same to some but there is a difference in flopping (broke neck shuffle is what I call it, involuntary convulsions etc.) and a turkey flopping with his head up or trying to right himself, gasping for air etc. You can cut one's head clean off and still have a pile of flopping. A turkey falling over stone dead without moving after being shot is not the norm in my experience. Seems to me if you rush out and touch them they seem to struggle even more.
:icon_thumright: :icon_thumright:
This is always an interesting yet totally imo non factual discussion. I don't believe anyone has ever done studies on the brainwaves of turkeys shot n seen when exactly the bird is "dead" or if the flop equals half dead.
Who knows at what point death happens. An interesting concept may be that at a certain point a certain number of nerve sensors or some such thing are severed the bird can't flop.
Think about this. Lots of bird guys have shot wings off upland birds. The things(wings) fall to the ground like wet socks. Shoot an upland birds head off, can't be deader than no head n they seem to all flop.
Now a couple years ago I shot a bird w #4 longbeards. Stuff patterns super tight as we know n even w the big shot it was fairly close n I thought I missed. Bird was crushed w tons of shot hard enough to drive it to the ground. Thought I missed since it just dissappeared in the fairly short grass n never moved.
I personally don't think a bird flops unless it is dead, I also believe sometimes they don't n don't sweat too much the reasons. Dead is dead.
Also like to add having to put our foot on a crippled birds head means shooting off to the side, inferior pattern beyond its effective range
Bow kill body shots don't flop once they go down.
What i do the week before season opens is go to fortune teller and see if i'm going to have a turkey flop or what kind of brainwaves i'm going to need in calling that bird. I want to be telepathy with communications with calling that bird. Flop or not Flop...does it really matter along as you get that bird...
Quote from: dirt road ninja on February 19, 2017, 03:32:28 PM
Bow kill body shots don't flop once they go down.
Animals killed w archery tackle die from blood loss n not shock. I believe that's the dif
It is a rarity that a bird don't flop...only can think of a few over 27 springs and lots of birds...of course that is with the gun...bow kills in the body they never flop.
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I clean shot the top of the head birds off last year, and that sucker was flopping 6 feet in the air.
I think when we sever the CNS system of a bird, it is going to flop most of the time. As long as a pellet breaches the spinal cord or the brain casing, it is unlikely that the game will get away, or suffer, but it probably will flop around a bit.
I saw a bird that did not flop, but fell over dead after the shot. Turns out this bird was not hit in the head. A poor shot, and a bit low. I had my suspicions that a pellet made its way to the heart and killed the bird.
One thing I have noticed is that a relaxed bird with a good head shot is less likely to flop than one that is nervous or partially alarmed.
I have been shooting Federal Heavyweight the last few years and have less floppage than ever before.
Quote from: Gobble! on February 19, 2017, 02:56:01 PM
What causes a bird to not flop? I've seen videos where bow hunters are cutting off these birds heads and they still flop. Are those not clean kills? In my mind as long as he goes down I don't care how long he flops.
x2
I'll second bowguy's first line. It's a topic based without facts. Any time the CNS is hit an animal can react in a different fashion. Look at mma fighters that get knocked out. Some are stiff as a board, others are flailing a bit. No one knows the outcome regardless of shell type or shot selection. I've shot them in the head with a 22 mag and had nothing but a stump left when the deal was over. Still flopped. Butchered turkeys and chicken this past fall, same result when removing them with an axe. Too many variables. Your best bet is to destroy the medulla oblongotta (sp) but even that isn't definitive because they will still flop with a severed head.
I've taken notes on every successful turkey hunt I've had. Location, call used, time of day, weather, etc. Everything I thought was important. Never noted flop or no flop. I guess it's not that important to me.
I've long suspected the no flop kill comes when a pellet takes out the rather small brain stem.
It's a pretty small target and I'm sure even a pretty thick swarm of shot can only hit it some of the time.
But that's just my guess.
The flop is a small sigh of relief moment for me. It's just part of a turkey hunt
Quote from: fountain2 on February 19, 2017, 11:24:08 PM
The flop is a small sigh of relief moment for me. It's just part of a turkey hunt
I tried to think of some kind of Can't stop the flop bone collector joke but I couldn't. ( not a huge fan of the B.C. Boys but that's not the point) I agree with fountain. Definitely part of it for me. Of the ones I've shot I can only think of one that didn't flail like a fish out of water. Last year I had one hit the dirt and he kinda sprawled out and wiggled for a second but didn't do it like the rest I've ever shot.
I've had them drop stone dead with hevi shot and lead and when I go to pick them up they start flopping. Ranges from 15 to 40 yards. I have never had a turkey not flop, some more than others and some I've had to stand on their neck while my leg gets beat to death before they quit. As long as my boot is on there neck I'm content. Scoping my shotgun helped me with the looking over the barrel when I shoot that we all can suffer from, beginner and seasoned hunter. My 2 cents.
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All the birds I've shot flop around to some extent. The only bird I saw that didn't flop was a bird I called in for a youth hunter who made a bad shot. It knocked the bird down and it was trying to raise up. Thankfully I was able to get right to it and finish it quickly.
The deadest dead turkey still flop like crazy, it's just the nerves. You could cut their head off and they would still flop around. I think that is true of most birds. The only time I know the shot was marginal is if the bird is still holding his head up and blinking his eyes. Then I have to go finish it off because I know it's still alive. I hate when they are still looking at me after the shot.
Quote from: dirt road ninja on February 19, 2017, 03:32:28 PM
Bow kill body shots don't flop once they go down.
I was surprised to see this first hand last year. I ran up, out of habit, and looked the bird in the eyes while he bled out without flopping. Gotta be a CNS reaction in birds to flop. "Like a chicken with its head cut off."
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I was raised on a farm, killed my fair share of chickens and I understand the flop from cutting their heads off. I really don't get very much flop from a 2 1/4 oz load of Hevi #7's at any range out to 38 yards. Most of my kills are stone dead or a couple of flops at regular ranges. I continue going back to terminal energy. Breaking bone, multiple neck fractures and multiple brain impacts seem likely to cause birds to die quickly. Think back 20-30 years when the norm was lead 2 3/4" #4's and we were talking about 10-20 pellets in the head and neck area. Now we are putting 100's of denser pellets (denser tighter patterns), with Hevi-13 and TSS, in the head and neck area (more trauma). For the guys that shoot TSS, are you seeing what I have described?
Quote from: bbcoach on February 21, 2017, 06:51:54 AM
I was raised on a farm, killed my fair share of chickens and I understand the flop from cutting their heads off. I really don't get very much flop from a 2 1/4 oz load of Hevi #7's at any range out to 38 yards. Most of my kills are stone dead or a couple of flops at regular ranges. I continue going back to terminal energy. Breaking bone, multiple neck fractures and multiple brain impacts seem likely to cause birds to die quickly. Think back 20-30 years when the norm was lead 2 3/4" #4's and we were talking about 10-20 pellets in the head and neck area. Now we are putting 100's of denser pellets (denser tighter patterns), with Hevi-13 and TSS, in the head and neck area (more trauma). For the guys that shoot TSS, are you seeing what I have described?
No. Had one bird drop like a stone last year until I walked up and touched him then the flopping started.
Quote from: THattaway on February 19, 2017, 02:47:08 PM
It may look the same to some but there is a difference in flopping (broke neck shuffle is what I call it, involuntary convulsions etc.) and a turkey flopping with his head up or trying to right himself, gasping for air etc. You can cut one's head clean off and still have a pile of flopping. A turkey falling over stone dead without moving after being shot is not the norm in my experience. Seems to me if you rush out and touch them they seem to struggle even more.
Yeah or you think its all over with only to have phase 2 begin splashing the groovy red kool-aid all over your face...but hey I like it like that!
Knowing just a bit about animal anatomy, neurology and trauma, there are some points to consider. If this stuff is not interesting, please skip over the rest as since y'all were talking about it I thought some may be interested. Not trying to be a know it all.
The flop is reflex. It is not controlled in the brain. It is controlled by the spinal cord. It is reflex. It is part of the pathway called conscious proprioception. It is what lets you walk without looking down at your feet the whole time. Your brain sends the signal to the muscles, sensory nerves tells you when your foot hits the ground and spinal reflex tells your leg when to lift. I have 4 legged patients with no motor or sensory function in the lower limbs learn to walk by using their forelegs to drag their back legs - it is known as spinal (or reflex) walking.
As someone above said, if you want a bird to not flop, shoot it in the spinal cord where the segments that affect the wings attach! Like many folks do with a bow. Sever the cord in the location that carries the reflex of the wings to move and there will be no wing flop! My son shot his first bird at 26 steps with a mod choke and Hevi # 6 out of a 20 gauge. Shot it in the neck and upper back. It hit the ground like it had been poleaxed. As expected, no wing flop. It's back legs kicked numerous times though (did not sever that part of the cord). So the flop is a reflex of the nerves and the muscles, accentuated by the sudden trauma of the nervous tissue (from a pellet or even a clean chop of a cleaver). Of course all this stops when the muscles and nerve tissue are well and truly dead - they don't last long with no oxygen, a little more time than you can hold your breath! I shot a turkey low one time (new gun) and it ran right at me and then turned to the side. As I pulled up to finish it, it fell dead - no flop. Autopsy revealed a heart shot - it bled out, dead muscles/nerves - no flop. Duck hunters know that look of a heart shot bird - it barely reacts, but the wing beat looks different. I have seen them sail several hundred yards and fall out as dead as a wedge. No flopping because they bled out.
Testing this theory, you can learn why a snake, or alligator move long after dead and that has to do with the ability of the muscles of those species to handle lower oxygen levels and thus the muscles can (and nerves can fire) continue to move long after death of the critter. But before the real death of the muscle tissue. Turtles may actually have a beating heart for a day after their death! It is not organized and does not pump blood, but the heart visibly beats.
And now you know the rest of the story.
One more interesting anecdote. When amputating a limb, usually a forelimb due to nerve damage to the brachial plexus (under the arm of a dog or cat), the nerve is no longer physically connected to the brain. They nerve and the muscles are alive and oxygenated, there is just no longer a connection from the brain to the muscles. One thing that must be done besides tying off the blood vessels is tying off the larger nerves as well. That is to prevent a painful nerve growth where they are cut. Anyways, when tying the nerve, as the suture is cinched down, the leg will jump - hard and violently sometimes. Scared the heck out of me the first time and always scares the new technicians working with me. The connection from that point to the nerve is fine, the cinching action creates an electrical signal and BOOM - nerve twitch. Exactly like the poster above said - step on the birds head and stimulate the cord (below the part where it is disconnected to the brain) and you get a whole new series of floppage!
Sorry for nerding out, biology is cool to me.
Quote from: g8rvet on February 21, 2017, 02:40:46 PM
One more interesting anecdote. When amputating a limb, usually a forelimb due to nerve damage to the brachial plexus (under the arm of a dog or cat), the nerve is no longer physically connected to the brain. They nerve and the muscles are alive and oxygenated, there is just no longer a connection from the brain to the muscles. One thing that must be done besides tying off the blood vessels is tying off the larger nerves as well. That is to prevent a painful nerve growth where they are cut. Anyways, when tying the nerve, as the suture is cinched down, the leg will jump - hard and violently sometimes. Scared the heck out of me the first time and always scares the new technicians working with me. The connection from that point to the nerve is fine, the cinching action creates an electrical signal and BOOM - nerve twitch. Exactly like the poster above said - step on the birds head and stimulate the cord (below the part where it is disconnected to the brain) and you get a whole new series of floppage!
Sorry for nerding out, biology is cool to me.
Interestingly enough this is the same physical reaction that I have after I kill a turkey!
I have only ever killed one turkey that did NOT flop. It was the spring of 2000. When the hammer dropped he went straight down and never moved. He did not even disturb the dry leaves he was standing on. Killed him with a Rem 870 Super Mag. with a Federal Premium 12ga. 3.5" 2 1/4 oz of #4 shot. Distance was 25 yards. Needless to say his head and neck was a mess.
Rapid blood loss causes shock. In mere seconds.. They go hand in hand..
Quote from: Bowguy on February 19, 2017, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: dirt road ninja on February 19, 2017, 03:32:28 PM
Bow kill body shots don't flop once they go down.
Animals killed w archery tackle die from blood loss n not shock. I believe that's the dif
I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"
:OGturkeyhead:
Quote from: nitro on February 21, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"
:OGturkeyhead:
Amen brother! :character0029: :begging:
Quote from: nitro on February 21, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"
:OGturkeyhead:
I agree LOL :newmascot:
followed by pukage... :z-dizzy: :-X
Quote from: g8rvet on February 21, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
Knowing just a bit about animal anatomy, neurology and trauma, there are some points to consider. If this stuff is not interesting, please skip over the rest as since y'all were talking about it I thought some may be interested. Not trying to be a know it all.
The flop is reflex. It is not controlled in the brain. It is controlled by the spinal cord. It is reflex. It is part of the pathway called conscious proprioception. It is what lets you walk without looking down at your feet the whole time. Your brain sends the signal to the muscles, sensory nerves tells you when your foot hits the ground and spinal reflex tells your leg when to lift. I have 4 legged patients with no motor or sensory function in the lower limbs learn to walk by using their forelegs to drag their back legs - it is known as spinal (or reflex) walking.
As someone above said, if you want a bird to not flop, shoot it in the spinal cord where the segments that affect the wings attach! Like many folks do with a bow. Sever the cord in the location that carries the reflex of the wings to move and there will be no wing flop! My son shot his first bird at 26 steps with a mod choke and Hevi # 6 out of a 20 gauge. Shot it in the neck and upper back. It hit the ground like it had been poleaxed. As expected, no wing flop. It's back legs kicked numerous times though (did not sever that part of the cord). So the flop is a reflex of the nerves and the muscles, accentuated by the sudden trauma of the nervous tissue (from a pellet or even a clean chop of a cleaver). Of course all this stops when the muscles and nerve tissue are well and truly dead - they don't last long with no oxygen, a little more time than you can hold your breath! I shot a turkey low one time (new gun) and it ran right at me and then turned to the side. As I pulled up to finish it, it fell dead - no flop. Autopsy revealed a heart shot - it bled out, dead muscles/nerves - no flop. Duck hunters know that look of a heart shot bird - it barely reacts, but the wing beat looks different. I have seen them sail several hundred yards and fall out as dead as a wedge. No flopping because they bled out.
Testing this theory, you can learn why a snake, or alligator move long after dead and that has to do with the ability of the muscles of those species to handle lower oxygen levels and thus the muscles can (and nerves can fire) continue to move long after death of the critter. But before the real death of the muscle tissue. Turtles may actually have a beating heart for a day after their death! It is not organized and does not pump blood, but the heart visibly beats.
And now you know the rest of the story.
very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing
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I can't say what makes one flop and what dosent, but I will say that the magority I have seen came from htl loads. I remember like yesterday the first bird I shot with an extended range. I had spent $43 on a box of shells and thought it would be crazy to waste one on paper so when the first bird I shot went down like I hit it with a sledge hammer I was amazed.... I would like to add something to this though.
I have been blown away by 2 birds the last couple of years that were shot with 20ga federal heavywieght 7s. There have been several more killed but those 2 stand out in my mind. Not because they didn't flop(they did) but because when I went to them they were laying in a POOL of blood, I mean LOTS of blood. Anybody seen blood loss like this from other loads? I have noticed some tss kills that looked bloody. I apoligize if I high jack the thread
Quote from: nitro on February 21, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"
:OGturkeyhead:
:z-winnersmiley:
In my experience, the tiny holes that HW7s and TSS 9s make creates more swollen, blood filled heads than actual blood spraying.. Those tiny pellets kill with great efficacy, but do little external damage.
For cranial devastation, nothing matches a load of #4s or #5s at close range. Big pellets break stuff..For many years I shot a 10 gauge with Nitro 3oz nickeled lead 4s or 5s.. NASTY..
That said, I do love the pattern density of the pixie dust and am just about converted to small pellets - especially in the sub gauges...ammo has improved. Case in point this Gobbler was crushed at 30 yards.. He was not going anywhere..
Quote from: sevetts on February 21, 2017, 09:11:34 PM
I can't say what makes one flop and what dosent, but I will say that the magority I have seen came from htl loads. I remember like yesterday the first bird I shot with an extended range. I had spent $43 on a box of shells and thought it would be crazy to waste one on paper so when the first bird I shot went down like I hit it with a sledge hammer I was amazed.... I would like to add something to this though.
I have been blown away by 2 birds the last couple of years that were shot with 20ga federal heavywieght 7s. There have been several more killed but those 2 stand out in my mind. Not because they didn't flop(they did) but because when I went to them they were laying in a POOL of blood, I mean LOTS of blood. Anybody seen blood loss like this from other loads? I have noticed some tss kills that looked bloody. I apoligize if I high jack the thread
g8rvet may not recall thiis , but I believe we sat next to each other on a flight to Texas a few years back, and he regaled us with his super cool photos of Xrays of dead Gobblers. We learned a lot that morning about our choice of ammo and pellet material. Very enlightening conversation. Thank you Sir!!
I've tried to dig up some of those old posts by g8rvet but haven't been successful. Good stuff including xray pictures as mentioned. Seems like it was a couple years ago
So what I get from g8rvet is by severing the spinal cord lower in the neck and maybe the upper back this causes the flop to be controlled more than a upper neck and head shot. That makes more sense to me because I actually aim for the spot on the turkeys neck where the feathers meet the wattles. Some may use the head or the eye as a target but to me you lose too much of your shot above the animal by doing this. By shooting at the middle of the neck, you put more shot in the entire vital head and neck area. Thanks g8rvet for the Great post.
Quote from: g8rvet on February 21, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
Knowing just a bit about animal anatomy, neurology and trauma, there are some points to consider. If this stuff is not interesting, please skip over the rest as since y'all were talking about it I thought some may be interested. Not trying to be a know it all.
The flop is reflex. It is not controlled in the brain. It is controlled by the spinal cord. It is reflex. It is part of the pathway called conscious proprioception. It is what lets you walk without looking down at your feet the whole time. Your brain sends the signal to the muscles, sensory nerves tells you when your foot hits the ground and spinal reflex tells your leg when to lift. I have 4 legged patients with no motor or sensory function in the lower limbs learn to walk by using their forelegs to drag their back legs - it is known as spinal (or reflex) walking.
As someone above said, if you want a bird to not flop, shoot it in the spinal cord where the segments that affect the wings attach! Like many folks do with a bow. Sever the cord in the location that carries the reflex of the wings to move and there will be no wing flop! My son shot his first bird at 26 steps with a mod choke and Hevi # 6 out of a 20 gauge. Shot it in the neck and upper back. It hit the ground like it had been poleaxed. As expected, no wing flop. It's back legs kicked numerous times though (did not sever that part of the cord). So the flop is a reflex of the nerves and the muscles, accentuated by the sudden trauma of the nervous tissue (from a pellet or even a clean chop of a cleaver). Of course all this stops when the muscles and nerve tissue are well and truly dead - they don't last long with no oxygen, a little more time than you can hold your breath! I shot a turkey low one time (new gun) and it ran right at me and then turned to the side. As I pulled up to finish it, it fell dead - no flop. Autopsy revealed a heart shot - it bled out, dead muscles/nerves - no flop. Duck hunters know that look of a heart shot bird - it barely reacts, but the wing beat looks different. I have seen them sail several hundred yards and fall out as dead as a wedge. No flopping because they bled out.
Testing this theory, you can learn why a snake, or alligator move long after dead and that has to do with the ability of the muscles of those species to handle lower oxygen levels and thus the muscles can (and nerves can fire) continue to move long after death of the critter. But before the real death of the muscle tissue. Turtles may actually have a beating heart for a day after their death! It is not organized and does not pump blood, but the heart visibly beats.
And now you know the rest of the story.
Interesting. I didn't know bout a turtles heart but I do know I was told snakes, turtles, etc can bite "til the sun goes down" so some say. I've never seen it stop exactly when the sun goes down but it can be for some extended time it seems.
A fellow I went to taxidermy school w used to catch rattlesnakes n copperheads. He told me one time he cut the head off a rattlesnake. As he went to grab it, the snake took on a strike pose n hit him in the wrist with its bloody stump. I don't know for sure that's true but I've seen "dead reflexes".
Btw I'd not be worried about sounding like a know it all you know more than at least me n I'm sure others., thanks for the info
This got me thinking of Mike the Headless chicken who live after the cut most of his head off.
http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/mike
Ironically, the only non-flopper I've ever shot was taken with non-recommended shot (#7 1/2 copperplated lead) at a non-recommended range (40+ yards). He was struck in the back of the head, neck and upper back. Not so much as a kick...
Quote from: Gamblinman on February 19, 2017, 07:00:31 PM
One thing I have noticed is that a relaxed bird with a good head shot is less likely to flop than one that is nervous or partially alarmed.
I have been shooting Federal Heavyweight the last few years and have less floppage than ever before.
x2
that stuff really penetrates and lots of blood on the ground
Quote from: nitro on February 21, 2017, 10:02:03 PM
g8rvet may not recall thiis , but I believe we sat next to each other on a flight to Texas a few years back, and he regaled us with his super cool photos of Xrays of dead Gobblers. We learned a lot that morning about our choice of ammo and pellet material. Very enlightening conversation. Thank you Sir!!
I don't think that was me. I have only done it a few times and posted them on here. I don't recall that and can't recall flying to Texas.
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,63047.msg615807.html#msg615807
I posted this thread last year I think, comparing pass through on Hevi shot vs HW which echoes what sevetts said about bleeding. Just makes sense that you get more blood from pass through pellets -double your pleasure just sounds mean ;)
One neat way to see where your shot hit, and y'all may know this, is to cut a slit under the skin of the lower neck and run a garden hose in the space, pointed back up towards the head. You can then easily visualize where the pellets entered. I did that years ago, but don't do it much anymore with the newer loads.
I also necropsied a dead tagged turkey for our state biologist years ago. It looked like an arrow kill with a field point. We did the necropsy and found a broken off stick, about the diameter of an arrow in the chest cavity. Perfect angle of entry for a fly down mishap. Never thought of that as a way for a turkey to die! Bled out due to large vessel tearing.
I have noticed less floppage with Htl loads. The walking away high back shot usually ends with no movement.
My mistake. Gentleman we flew to TX with was a vet from FL - very knowledgeable on the subject .
[/quote] I don't think that was me[/quote]
Quote from: g8rvet on February 21, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
Knowing just a bit about animal anatomy, neurology and trauma, there are some points to consider. If this stuff is not interesting, please skip over the rest as since y'all were talking about it I thought some may be interested. Not trying to be a know it all.
The flop is reflex. It is not controlled in the brain. It is controlled by the spinal cord. It is reflex. It is part of the pathway called conscious proprioception. It is what lets you walk without looking down at your feet the whole time. Your brain sends the signal to the muscles, sensory nerves tells you when your foot hits the ground and spinal reflex tells your leg when to lift. I have 4 legged patients with no motor or sensory function in the lower limbs learn to walk by using their forelegs to drag their back legs - it is known as spinal (or reflex) walking.
As someone above said, if you want a bird to not flop, shoot it in the spinal cord where the segments that affect the wings attach! Like many folks do with a bow. Sever the cord in the location that carries the reflex of the wings to move and there will be no wing flop! My son shot his first bird at 26 steps with a mod choke and Hevi # 6 out of a 20 gauge. Shot it in the neck and upper back. It hit the ground like it had been poleaxed. As expected, no wing flop. It's back legs kicked numerous times though (did not sever that part of the cord). So the flop is a reflex of the nerves and the muscles, accentuated by the sudden trauma of the nervous tissue (from a pellet or even a clean chop of a cleaver). Of course all this stops when the muscles and nerve tissue are well and truly dead - they don't last long with no oxygen, a little more time than you can hold your breath! I shot a turkey low one time (new gun) and it ran right at me and then turned to the side. As I pulled up to finish it, it fell dead - no flop. Autopsy revealed a heart shot - it bled out, dead muscles/nerves - no flop. Duck hunters know that look of a heart shot bird - it barely reacts, but the wing beat looks different. I have seen them sail several hundred yards and fall out as dead as a wedge. No flopping because they bled out.
Testing this theory, you can learn why a snake, or alligator move long after dead and that has to do with the ability of the muscles of those species to handle lower oxygen levels and thus the muscles can (and nerves can fire) continue to move long after death of the critter. But before the real death of the muscle tissue. Turtles may actually have a beating heart for a day after their death! It is not organized and does not pump blood, but the heart visibly beats.
And now you know the rest of the story.
. You're right, science is cool.
This makes sense to me, spinal reflexes like the ones in humans lumbar spine responsible for reciprocal stepping responses, I think they're called central pattern generators.....Can you explain why a deer shot in the neck doesn't do more than twitch? It seems like birds have a much greater degree. Also, do you post the things you've found doing turkey evaluations after being shot?
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Quote from: nitro on February 21, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"
:OGturkeyhead:
YEP!
nitro, I am a vet from FL, just not THAT vet from Fl. :funnyturkey:
Quote from: WNCTracker on February 23, 2017, 09:46:17 PM
You're right, science is cool.
This makes sense to me, spinal reflexes like the ones in humans lumbar spine responsible for reciprocal stepping responses, I think they're called central pattern generators.....Can you explain why a deer shot in the neck doesn't do more than twitch? It seems like birds have a much greater degree. Also, do you post the things you've found doing turkey evaluations after being shot?
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Not really sure but would be highly suspect that since wing flapping is such a basic survival instinct in birds of all kinds, that upon spinal shock, the wing flop would be reflex. A deer's first reaction would be to run, but that is a much more complex set of muscle and nerve coordination. That is just a guess, but seems reasonable.