FLOPPAGE?

[stinkpickle]

Ironically, the only non-flopper I've ever shot was taken with non-recommended shot (#7 1/2 copperplated lead) at a non-recommended range (40+ yards).  He was struck in the back of the head, neck and upper back.  Not so much as a kick...

[owlhoot]

One thing I have noticed is that a relaxed bird with a good head shot is less likely to flop than one that is nervous or partially alarmed.

I have been shooting Federal Heavyweight the last few years and have less floppage than ever before.

x2
that stuff really penetrates  and lots of blood on the ground

[g8rvet]

g8rvet may not recall thiis , but I believe we sat next to each other on a flight to Texas a few years back,  and he regaled us with his super cool photos of Xrays of dead Gobblers. We learned a lot that morning about our choice of ammo and pellet material. Very enlightening conversation. Thank you Sir!!

I don't think that was me.  I have only done it a few times and posted them on here.  I don't recall that and can't recall flying to Texas.

http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,63047.msg615807.html#msg615807

I posted this thread last year I think, comparing pass through on Hevi shot vs HW which echoes what sevetts said about bleeding.  Just makes sense that you get more blood from pass through pellets -double your pleasure just sounds mean    

One neat way to see where your shot hit, and y'all may know this, is to cut a slit under the skin of the lower neck and run a garden hose in the space, pointed back up towards the head.  You can then easily visualize where the pellets entered. I did that years ago, but don't do it much anymore with the newer loads.


I also necropsied a dead tagged turkey for our state biologist years ago.  It looked like an arrow kill with a field point.  We did the necropsy and found a broken off stick, about the diameter of an arrow in the chest cavity.  Perfect angle of entry for a fly down mishap.  Never thought of that as a way for a turkey to die!  Bled out due to large vessel tearing. 

[Blong]

I have noticed less floppage with Htl loads. The walking away high back shot usually ends with no movement.

[nitro]

My mistake. Gentleman we flew to TX with was a vet from FL - very knowledgeable on the subject .

[/quote] I don't think that was me[/quote]

[WNCTracker]

Knowing just a bit about animal anatomy, neurology and trauma, there are some points to consider.  If this stuff is not interesting, please skip over the rest as since y'all were talking about it I thought some may be interested.  Not trying to be a know it all.   

The flop is reflex.  It is not controlled in the brain.  It is controlled by the spinal cord.  It is reflex.  It is part of the pathway called conscious proprioception.  It is what lets you walk without looking down at your feet the whole time. Your brain sends the signal to the muscles, sensory nerves tells you when your foot hits the ground and spinal reflex tells your leg when to lift.  I have 4 legged patients with no motor or sensory function in the lower limbs learn to walk by using their forelegs to drag their back legs - it is known as spinal (or reflex) walking. 

As someone above said, if you want a bird to not flop, shoot it in the spinal cord where the segments that affect the wings attach!  Like many folks do with a bow.  Sever the cord in the location that carries the reflex of the wings to move and there will be no wing flop!  My son shot his first bird at 26 steps with a mod choke and Hevi # 6 out of a 20 gauge. Shot it in the neck and upper back.  It hit the ground like it had been poleaxed.  As expected, no wing flop.  It's back legs kicked numerous times though (did not sever that part of the cord).  So the flop is a reflex of the nerves and the muscles, accentuated by the sudden trauma of the nervous tissue (from a pellet or even a clean chop of a cleaver). Of course all this stops when the muscles and nerve tissue are well and truly dead - they don't last long with no oxygen, a little more time than you can hold your breath!  I shot a turkey low one time (new gun) and it ran right at me and then turned to the side. As I pulled up to finish it, it fell dead - no flop.  Autopsy revealed a heart shot - it bled out, dead muscles/nerves - no flop.  Duck hunters know that look of a heart shot bird - it barely reacts, but the wing beat looks different. I have seen them sail several hundred yards and fall out as dead as a wedge.  No flopping because they bled out.

Testing this theory, you can learn why a snake, or alligator move long after dead and that has to do with the ability of the muscles of those species to handle lower oxygen levels and thus the muscles can (and nerves can fire) continue to move long after death of the critter.  But before the real death of the muscle tissue.  Turtles may actually have a beating heart for a day after their death!  It is not organized and does not pump blood, but the heart visibly beats. 

And now you know the rest of the story.

. You're right, science is cool.
This makes sense to me, spinal reflexes like the ones in humans lumbar spine responsible for reciprocal stepping responses, I think they're called central pattern generators.....Can you explain why a deer shot in the neck doesn't do more than twitch?  It seems like birds have a much greater degree.   Also, do you post the things you've found doing turkey evaluations after being shot?


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[MISSISSIPPI Double beard]

I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"

YEP!

[g8rvet]

nitro, I am a vet from FL, just not THAT vet from Fl.   

[g8rvet]

You're right, science is cool.
This makes sense to me, spinal reflexes like the ones in humans lumbar spine responsible for reciprocal stepping responses, I think they're called central pattern generators.....Can you explain why a deer shot in the neck doesn't do more than twitch?  It seems like birds have a much greater degree.   Also, do you post the things you've found doing turkey evaluations after being shot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not really sure but would be highly suspect that since wing flapping is such a basic survival instinct in birds of all kinds, that upon spinal shock, the wing flop would be reflex.  A deer's first reaction would be to run, but that is a much more complex set of muscle and nerve coordination.  That is just a guess, but seems reasonable.