FLOPPAGE?

[WildTigerTrout]

I have only ever killed one turkey that did NOT flop.  It was the spring of 2000.  When the hammer dropped he went straight down and never moved. He did not even disturb the dry leaves he was standing on.  Killed him with a Rem 870 Super Mag. with a Federal Premium 12ga. 3.5" 2 1/4 oz of #4 shot.  Distance was 25 yards.  Needless to say his head and neck was a mess. 

[nitro]

Rapid blood loss causes shock. In mere seconds.. They go hand in hand..

Bow kill body shots don't flop once they go down.

Animals killed w archery tackle die from blood loss n not shock. I believe that's the dif

[nitro]

I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"

[tha bugman]

I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"

Amen brother!  

[WildTigerTrout]

I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"

I agree LOL 

[tha bugman]

followed by pukage...

[catman529]

Knowing just a bit about animal anatomy, neurology and trauma, there are some points to consider.  If this stuff is not interesting, please skip over the rest as since y'all were talking about it I thought some may be interested.  Not trying to be a know it all.   

The flop is reflex.  It is not controlled in the brain.  It is controlled by the spinal cord.  It is reflex.  It is part of the pathway called conscious proprioception.  It is what lets you walk without looking down at your feet the whole time. Your brain sends the signal to the muscles, sensory nerves tells you when your foot hits the ground and spinal reflex tells your leg when to lift.  I have 4 legged patients with no motor or sensory function in the lower limbs learn to walk by using their forelegs to drag their back legs - it is known as spinal (or reflex) walking. 

As someone above said, if you want a bird to not flop, shoot it in the spinal cord where the segments that affect the wings attach!  Like many folks do with a bow.  Sever the cord in the location that carries the reflex of the wings to move and there will be no wing flop!  My son shot his first bird at 26 steps with a mod choke and Hevi # 6 out of a 20 gauge. Shot it in the neck and upper back.  It hit the ground like it had been poleaxed.  As expected, no wing flop.  It's back legs kicked numerous times though (did not sever that part of the cord).  So the flop is a reflex of the nerves and the muscles, accentuated by the sudden trauma of the nervous tissue (from a pellet or even a clean chop of a cleaver). Of course all this stops when the muscles and nerve tissue are well and truly dead - they don't last long with no oxygen, a little more time than you can hold your breath!  I shot a turkey low one time (new gun) and it ran right at me and then turned to the side. As I pulled up to finish it, it fell dead - no flop.  Autopsy revealed a heart shot - it bled out, dead muscles/nerves - no flop.  Duck hunters know that look of a heart shot bird - it barely reacts, but the wing beat looks different. I have seen them sail several hundred yards and fall out as dead as a wedge.  No flopping because they bled out.

Testing this theory, you can learn why a snake, or alligator move long after dead and that has to do with the ability of the muscles of those species to handle lower oxygen levels and thus the muscles can (and nerves can fire) continue to move long after death of the critter.  But before the real death of the muscle tissue.  Turtles may actually have a beating heart for a day after their death!  It is not organized and does not pump blood, but the heart visibly beats. 

And now you know the rest of the story.

very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sevetts]

I can't say what makes one flop and what dosent, but I will say that the magority I have seen came from htl loads. I remember like yesterday the first bird I shot with an extended range. I had spent $43 on a box of shells and thought it would be crazy to waste one on paper so when the first bird I shot went down like I hit it with a sledge hammer I was amazed.... I would like to add something to this though.
I have been blown away by 2 birds the last couple of years that were shot with 20ga federal heavywieght 7s. There have been several more killed but those 2 stand out in my mind. Not because they didn't flop(they did) but because when I went to them they were laying in a POOL of blood, I mean LOTS of blood. Anybody seen blood loss like this from other loads? I have noticed some tss kills that looked bloody. I apoligize if I high jack the thread

[littlebull]

I much prefer "floppage" to the dreaded post shot "runnage" or "Flyage"

[nitro]

In my experience, the tiny holes that HW7s and TSS 9s make creates more swollen, blood filled heads than actual blood spraying.. Those tiny pellets kill with great efficacy, but do little external damage.

For cranial devastation, nothing matches a load of #4s or #5s at close range. Big pellets break stuff..For many years I shot a 10 gauge with Nitro 3oz nickeled lead 4s or 5s.. NASTY..


That said, I do love the pattern density of the pixie dust and am just about converted to small pellets - especially in the sub gauges...ammo has improved. Case in point this Gobbler was crushed at 30 yards.. He was not going anywhere..

I can't say what makes one flop and what dosent, but I will say that the magority I have seen came from htl loads. I remember like yesterday the first bird I shot with an extended range. I had spent $43 on a box of shells and thought it would be crazy to waste one on paper so when the first bird I shot went down like I hit it with a sledge hammer I was amazed.... I would like to add something to this though.
I have been blown away by 2 birds the last couple of years that were shot with 20ga federal heavywieght 7s. There have been several more killed but those 2 stand out in my mind. Not because they didn't flop(they did) but because when I went to them they were laying in a POOL of blood, I mean LOTS of blood. Anybody seen blood loss like this from other loads? I have noticed some tss kills that looked bloody. I apoligize if I high jack the thread

[nitro]

g8rvet may not recall thiis , but I believe we sat next to each other on a flight to Texas a few years back,  and he regaled us with his super cool photos of Xrays of dead Gobblers. We learned a lot that morning about our choice of ammo and pellet material. Very enlightening conversation. Thank you Sir!!

[yella yelper]

I've tried to dig up some of those old posts by g8rvet but haven't been successful. Good stuff including xray pictures as mentioned. Seems like it was a couple years ago

[bbcoach]

So what I get from g8rvet is by severing the spinal cord lower in the neck and maybe the upper back this causes the flop to be controlled more than a upper neck and head shot.  That makes more sense to me because I actually aim for the spot on the turkeys neck where the feathers meet the wattles.  Some may use the head or the eye as a target but to me you lose too much of your shot above the animal by doing this.  By shooting at the middle of the neck, you put more shot in the entire vital head and neck area.  Thanks g8rvet for the Great post.

[Bowguy]

Knowing just a bit about animal anatomy, neurology and trauma, there are some points to consider.  If this stuff is not interesting, please skip over the rest as since y'all were talking about it I thought some may be interested.  Not trying to be a know it all.   

The flop is reflex.  It is not controlled in the brain.  It is controlled by the spinal cord.  It is reflex.  It is part of the pathway called conscious proprioception.  It is what lets you walk without looking down at your feet the whole time. Your brain sends the signal to the muscles, sensory nerves tells you when your foot hits the ground and spinal reflex tells your leg when to lift.  I have 4 legged patients with no motor or sensory function in the lower limbs learn to walk by using their forelegs to drag their back legs - it is known as spinal (or reflex) walking. 

As someone above said, if you want a bird to not flop, shoot it in the spinal cord where the segments that affect the wings attach!  Like many folks do with a bow.  Sever the cord in the location that carries the reflex of the wings to move and there will be no wing flop!  My son shot his first bird at 26 steps with a mod choke and Hevi # 6 out of a 20 gauge. Shot it in the neck and upper back.  It hit the ground like it had been poleaxed.  As expected, no wing flop.  It's back legs kicked numerous times though (did not sever that part of the cord).  So the flop is a reflex of the nerves and the muscles, accentuated by the sudden trauma of the nervous tissue (from a pellet or even a clean chop of a cleaver). Of course all this stops when the muscles and nerve tissue are well and truly dead - they don't last long with no oxygen, a little more time than you can hold your breath!  I shot a turkey low one time (new gun) and it ran right at me and then turned to the side. As I pulled up to finish it, it fell dead - no flop.  Autopsy revealed a heart shot - it bled out, dead muscles/nerves - no flop.  Duck hunters know that look of a heart shot bird - it barely reacts, but the wing beat looks different. I have seen them sail several hundred yards and fall out as dead as a wedge.  No flopping because they bled out.

Testing this theory, you can learn why a snake, or alligator move long after dead and that has to do with the ability of the muscles of those species to handle lower oxygen levels and thus the muscles can (and nerves can fire) continue to move long after death of the critter.  But before the real death of the muscle tissue.  Turtles may actually have a beating heart for a day after their death!  It is not organized and does not pump blood, but the heart visibly beats. 

And now you know the rest of the story.

Interesting. I didn't know bout a turtles heart but I do know I was told snakes, turtles, etc can bite "til the sun goes down" so some say. I've never seen it stop exactly when the sun goes down but it can be for some extended time it seems.
A fellow I went to taxidermy school w used to catch rattlesnakes n copperheads. He told me one time he cut the head off a rattlesnake. As he went to grab it, the snake took on a strike pose n hit him in the wrist with its bloody stump. I don't know for sure that's true but I've seen "dead reflexes".
Btw I'd not be worried about sounding like a know it all you know more than at least me n I'm sure others., thanks for the info

[Parrot Head]

This got me thinking of Mike the Headless chicken who live after the cut most of his head off.
http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/mike