FLOPPAGE?

[wvmntnhick]

I'll second bowguy's first line. It's a topic based without facts. Any time the CNS is hit an animal can react in a different fashion. Look at mma fighters that get knocked out. Some are stiff as a board, others are flailing a bit. No one knows the outcome regardless of shell type or shot selection. I've shot them in the head with a 22 mag and had nothing but a stump left when the deal was over. Still flopped. Butchered turkeys and chicken this past fall, same result when removing them with an axe. Too many variables. Your best bet is to destroy the medulla oblongotta (sp) but even that isn't definitive because they will still flop with a severed head.

[2eagles]

I've taken notes on every successful turkey hunt I've had. Location, call used, time of day, weather, etc. Everything I thought was important. Never noted flop or no flop. I guess it's not that important to me.

[Tail Feathers]

I've long suspected the no flop kill comes when a pellet takes out the rather small brain stem. 
It's a pretty small target and I'm sure even a pretty thick swarm of shot can only hit it some of the time.
But that's just my guess.

[fountain2]

The flop is a small sigh of relief moment for me.  It's just part of a turkey hunt

[C.Kimzey95]

The flop is a small sigh of relief moment for me.  It's just part of a turkey hunt

I tried to think of some kind of Can't stop the flop bone collector joke but I couldn't. ( not a huge fan of the B.C. Boys but that's not the point) I agree with fountain. Definitely part of it for me. Of the ones I've shot I can only think of one that didn't flail like a fish out of water. Last year I had one hit the dirt and he kinda sprawled out and wiggled for a second but didn't do it like the rest I've ever shot.

[trkehunr93]

I've had them drop stone dead with hevi shot and lead and when I go to pick them up they start flopping.  Ranges from 15 to 40 yards.  I have never had a turkey not flop, some more than others and some I've had to stand on their neck while my leg gets beat to death before they quit.  As long as my boot is on there neck I'm content.  Scoping my shotgun helped me with the looking over the barrel when I shoot that we all can suffer from, beginner and seasoned hunter.  My 2 cents.


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[Kylongspur88]

All the birds I've shot flop around to some extent. The only bird I saw that didn't flop was a bird I called in for a youth hunter who made a bad shot. It knocked the bird down and it was trying to raise up. Thankfully I was able to get right to it and finish it quickly.

[catman529]

The deadest dead turkey still flop like crazy, it's just the nerves. You could cut their head off and they would still flop around. I think that is true of most birds. The only time I know the shot was marginal is if the bird is still holding his head up and blinking his eyes. Then I have to go finish it off because I know it's still alive. I hate when they are still looking at me after the shot.

[WNCTracker]

Bow kill body shots don't flop once they go down.

I was surprised to see this first hand last year. I ran up, out of habit,  and looked the bird in the eyes while he bled out without flopping.  Gotta be a CNS reaction in birds to flop. "Like a chicken with its head cut off."


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[bbcoach]

I was raised on a farm, killed my fair share of chickens and I understand the flop from cutting their heads off.  I really don't get very much flop from a 2 1/4 oz load of Hevi #7's at any range out to 38 yards.  Most of my kills are stone dead or a couple of flops at regular ranges.  I continue going back to terminal energy.  Breaking bone, multiple neck fractures and multiple brain impacts seem likely to cause birds to die quickly.  Think back 20-30 years when the norm was lead 2 3/4" #4's and we were talking about 10-20 pellets in the head and neck area.  Now we are putting 100's of denser pellets (denser tighter patterns), with Hevi-13 and TSS, in the head and neck area (more trauma).  For the guys that shoot TSS, are you seeing what I have described? 

[Gobble!]

I was raised on a farm, killed my fair share of chickens and I understand the flop from cutting their heads off.  I really don't get very much flop from a 2 1/4 oz load of Hevi #7's at any range out to 38 yards.  Most of my kills are stone dead or a couple of flops at regular ranges.  I continue going back to terminal energy.  Breaking bone, multiple neck fractures and multiple brain impacts seem likely to cause birds to die quickly.  Think back 20-30 years when the norm was lead 2 3/4" #4's and we were talking about 10-20 pellets in the head and neck area.  Now we are putting 100's of denser pellets (denser tighter patterns), with Hevi-13 and TSS, in the head and neck area (more trauma).  For the guys that shoot TSS, are you seeing what I have described?

No. Had one bird drop like a stone last year until I walked up and touched him then the flopping started.

[tha bugman]

It may look the same to some but there is a difference in flopping (broke neck shuffle is what I call it, involuntary convulsions etc.) and a turkey flopping with his head up or trying to right himself, gasping for air etc. You can cut one's head clean off and still have a pile of flopping. A turkey falling over stone dead without moving after being shot is not the norm in my experience. Seems to me if you rush out and touch them they seem to struggle even more.

Yeah or you think its all over with only to have phase 2 begin splashing the groovy red kool-aid all over your face...but hey I like it like that!

[g8rvet]

Knowing just a bit about animal anatomy, neurology and trauma, there are some points to consider.  If this stuff is not interesting, please skip over the rest as since y'all were talking about it I thought some may be interested.  Not trying to be a know it all.   

The flop is reflex.  It is not controlled in the brain.  It is controlled by the spinal cord.  It is reflex.  It is part of the pathway called conscious proprioception.  It is what lets you walk without looking down at your feet the whole time. Your brain sends the signal to the muscles, sensory nerves tells you when your foot hits the ground and spinal reflex tells your leg when to lift.  I have 4 legged patients with no motor or sensory function in the lower limbs learn to walk by using their forelegs to drag their back legs - it is known as spinal (or reflex) walking. 

As someone above said, if you want a bird to not flop, shoot it in the spinal cord where the segments that affect the wings attach!  Like many folks do with a bow.  Sever the cord in the location that carries the reflex of the wings to move and there will be no wing flop!  My son shot his first bird at 26 steps with a mod choke and Hevi # 6 out of a 20 gauge. Shot it in the neck and upper back.  It hit the ground like it had been poleaxed.  As expected, no wing flop.  It's back legs kicked numerous times though (did not sever that part of the cord).  So the flop is a reflex of the nerves and the muscles, accentuated by the sudden trauma of the nervous tissue (from a pellet or even a clean chop of a cleaver). Of course all this stops when the muscles and nerve tissue are well and truly dead - they don't last long with no oxygen, a little more time than you can hold your breath!  I shot a turkey low one time (new gun) and it ran right at me and then turned to the side. As I pulled up to finish it, it fell dead - no flop.  Autopsy revealed a heart shot - it bled out, dead muscles/nerves - no flop.  Duck hunters know that look of a heart shot bird - it barely reacts, but the wing beat looks different. I have seen them sail several hundred yards and fall out as dead as a wedge.  No flopping because they bled out.

Testing this theory, you can learn why a snake, or alligator move long after dead and that has to do with the ability of the muscles of those species to handle lower oxygen levels and thus the muscles can (and nerves can fire) continue to move long after death of the critter.  But before the real death of the muscle tissue.  Turtles may actually have a beating heart for a day after their death!  It is not organized and does not pump blood, but the heart visibly beats. 

And now you know the rest of the story. 

[g8rvet]

One more interesting anecdote.  When amputating a limb, usually a forelimb due to nerve damage to the brachial plexus (under the arm of a dog or cat), the nerve is no longer physically connected to the brain. They nerve and the muscles are alive and oxygenated, there is just no longer a connection from the brain to the muscles.  One thing that must be done besides tying off the blood vessels is tying off the larger nerves as well.  That is to prevent a painful nerve growth where they are cut. Anyways, when tying the nerve, as the suture is cinched down, the leg will jump - hard and violently sometimes.  Scared the heck out of me the first time and always scares the new technicians working with me.  The connection from that point to the nerve is fine, the cinching action creates an electrical signal and BOOM - nerve twitch.  Exactly like the poster above said - step on the birds head and stimulate the cord (below the part where it is disconnected to the brain) and you get a whole new series of floppage! 

Sorry for nerding out, biology is cool to me.

[tha bugman]

One more interesting anecdote.  When amputating a limb, usually a forelimb due to nerve damage to the brachial plexus (under the arm of a dog or cat), the nerve is no longer physically connected to the brain. They nerve and the muscles are alive and oxygenated, there is just no longer a connection from the brain to the muscles.  One thing that must be done besides tying off the blood vessels is tying off the larger nerves as well.  That is to prevent a painful nerve growth where they are cut. Anyways, when tying the nerve, as the suture is cinched down, the leg will jump - hard and violently sometimes.  Scared the heck out of me the first time and always scares the new technicians working with me.  The connection from that point to the nerve is fine, the cinching action creates an electrical signal and BOOM - nerve twitch.  Exactly like the poster above said - step on the birds head and stimulate the cord (below the part where it is disconnected to the brain) and you get a whole new series of floppage! 

Sorry for nerding out, biology is cool to me.

Interestingly enough this is the same physical reaction that I have after I kill a turkey!