Turkey hunting forum for turkey hunting tips

So the question.
What is this about Jakes not breeding? Not being capable ?
I have personally seen a lot of hens running across fields to a Jake strutting and gobbling, apparently they don't know the Jakes ain't doing them any good for egg laying.
He was the only one gobbling in the area. And I know there was just a day before lots of mature gobblers in the area. Big boys must have been occupied or taking a break, lol.
I was thinking I had read the statement about jakes not capable from some well known turkey biologist ?
Any opinions?
Thanks.

It's not that they won't try or aren't capable it's that thier sperm isn't viable yet for reproduction.

Quote from: Paulmyr on May 23, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
It's not that they won't try or aren't capable it's that thier sperm isn't viable yet for reproduction.

I was just having the discussion on another site about Mike Chamberlains interview on Meateater Podcast and everybody said I was nuts about them not going down to the next tom and that the order had to be established again and everybody brought up that they saw jakes breeding hens but I did not know that it was that they were no viable as well, just that the pecking order had to be reestablished.

Quote from: Paulmyr on May 23, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
It's not that they won't try or aren't capable it's that thier sperm isn't viable yet for reproduction.

Oh okay.
So the hens don't know that, or just going in for the fun of it  :lol:

Quote from: Sir-diealot on May 23, 2021, 03:47:16 PM

Quote from: Paulmyr on May 23, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
It's not that they won't try or aren't capable it's that thier sperm isn't viable yet for reproduction.

I was just having the discussion on another site about Mike Chamberlains interview on Meateater Podcast and everybody said I was nuts about them not going down to the next tom and that the order had to be established again and everybody brought up that they saw jakes breeding hens but I did not know that it was that they were no viable as well, just that the pecking order had to be reestablished.

Think I had read that. Puzzled me that a short 1/2-1mile away different toms were on the hens and had been on the hens. Thought maybe pecking order may have been in just a family group, but IDK?

I have two chicks in a box in my garage that were fathered by a Jake.  That's for certain. 

I find it amusing that some believe jakes wont or cant breed hens and about sperm not being viable. Hogwash. Thats the same as someone saying a young spike buck cant breed or be fertal. Utter nonsense. I say this because I have witnessed several times jakes breeding hens and poults being the result. Some with a spike and a doe.

Of course it's possible but in general I think studies have shown most jakes aren't capable of producing viable sperm during the breeding season. Studies have also shown that subordinate toms don't produce the levels of testosterone needed to produce viable sperm. It's not that they won't try its Just the sperm isn't viable.

Another note. Hen wild turkeys breed with more than one tom and store the sperm until it's time to fertilize. The thinking behind this is when she releases the sperm the strongest sperm fertilizes her eggs ensuring the future of of the species. Her original breeding is done not by happenstance. She chooses carefully it's not a rushed decision. After her original mating she goes off to find other toms or possibly jakes to breed with. I would imagine with time constraints in the breeding cycle she's not as picky with her secondary suitors.

@ Shiloh. Unless you've had the hen and Jake in captivity I'm not sure you can say the chicks in your box are the offspring of a Jake.

Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 23, 2021, 05:18:19 PM
I find it amusing that some believe jakes wont or cant breed hens and about sperm not being viable. Hogwash. Thats the same as someone saying a young spike buck cant breed or be fertal. Utter nonsense. I say this because I have witnessed several times jakes breeding hens and poults being the result. Some with a spike and a doe.

Deer and turkeys are 2 completely different species with totaly different mating rituals. Actually deer have no rituals it's breeding by opprotunity. Not sure how comparing the 2 proves a point.

Complete Nonsense.

Quote from: Paulmyr on May 23, 2021, 05:36:16 PM
Of course it's possible but in general I think studies have shown most jakes aren't capable of producing viable sperm during the breeding season. Studies have also shown that subordinate toms don't produce the levels of testosterone needed to produce viable sperm. It's not that they won't try its Just the sperm isn't viable.

So now even a subordinate tom does not have good viable sperm?
So how far away does another tom have to be from the dominant tom to be considered dominate with testosterone and viable sperm?

I guess that would be a grey area for me. Is the Sattelite  tom hanging in the outskirts considered to be a subordinate or does the definition apply only to the subordinates in a group of toms that hang together?

Quote from: Paulmyr on May 23, 2021, 06:19:28 PM
I guess that would be a grey area. Is the Sattelite  tom hanging in the outskirts considered to be a subordinate or does the definition apply only to the subordinates in a group of toms that hang together?

I would guess the latter. Toms a mile away from others don't seem to pay the other groups of toms much mind.
But a few times through many years, I have seen groups of toms go to other groups of toms and well I guess sort things out. They in those cases started out the morning gobbling a good distance apart but within a short time got together. Lots of gobbling and strutting. No hens around. Low T did not seem to be in the air.  :lol:

 Man I wish half of this dumbness was true.... We would have a lot less stupid people in the word, if it applied to less than Alpha males as it does to subordinate Toms as some would think.

Think people, think.

There are a few bird species that come to mind , eagles . that don't mature their first year and therefore do not  breed . But they are not out there strutting , gobbling and topping hens . Jake show all the characteristics of a breeder but somehow are sterile . Why would nature play such a trick ?
The argument the hens pick the breeder is a half truth . If this was the case , the gobblers would only display , there would be no fighting and pecking order , the hen would just pick , problem solved . You see this ranking of males thru out the animal kingdom , our bulls would determine who breeds , not the cows , such as lions , gorillas , Elk , Goats , etc,etc,etc. Our peacocks would go to the prettiest tail , never saw the cocks fight and all hens were hatching from Young or old cocks .
I hear it said studies show jakes infertile , but never once have I heard a wildlife department factor that when determining bag limits . They encourage hunters to take mature birds , have not heard them concerned they are leaving hens to sterile jakes .
As far as a subordinate , if you are not a boss , you are subordinate . Bosses will allow subordinates in the group provided they stay in front where he can see you , no breeding and you defend against intruders .
All jakes are not made equal , could there be sterile jakes , probably , late hatch jake or a bird not as healthy . But to say they are sterile , or the hens spend a week picking the next breeder when the boss is taken is wrong . The order is set , next man up . Sometimes a hen , or woman , will hang with a young Tom or young man . They can still get just as pregnant .

There's a saying about horse and water. I'll just leave it that.

The study he sites about jakes no having viable sperm was done in TX on Rios and they found that 5-7% had viable sperm capable of fertilizing an egg.

Didn't know there was sooo many turkeyoligist !

 Someone help me out , I would like to know , Has a wildlife department  ever discussed or brought attention to sterile Jakes . A study by someone in Texas maybe is accurate , or not . What other agency"s at a high level  have also documented sterile jakes or publicly agreed with this conclusion . Not picking a fight , would like to know . 
  I hear it said that take the boss out of a breeding group and it will be days or even weeks before the hens will pick who they will mate with . They are careful who they choose to mate with , but yet some  will pick an infertile Jake ? I have witnessed Jakes breeding , so what I am seeing is mother nature during its season using infertile males and stupid females to further a species .
  Maybe sterile Jakes is the case , it just goes against nature , I can not think of another example of this in the animal kingdom , there are animals that have to mature to breed , but are they actually breeding or waiting their time .
  Just asking ?

Quote from: Howie g on May 23, 2021, 11:06:30 PM
Didn't know there was sooo many turkeyoligist !

Oh , populations dropping in a lot of states. Plenty of studies need done.

The short answer is jakes contribute very little to reproduction. It's obvious that jakes are not developed and are not fully capable of producing the level of sperm needed to fertilize clutches, but i will agree they do try to breed with hens. Research has shown that very small percentage of jakes are just capable of sufficient breeding during their first breeding season. You have to realize as the spring season is going on gobblers testosterone levels continues to grow and it makes sense that a jakes level of testosterone will decrease in that first years as the breeding season whines down. Same with gobblers, coming back together into a flock, it's all a breeding cycle.. IMO....

Just a question because I have no idea.   But if a Jake is not capable of breeding, then what about a Jenny?   Is she able to breed successfully?

Quote from: guesswho on May 24, 2021, 03:11:22 PM
Just a question because I have no idea.   But if a Jake is not capable of breeding, then what about a Jenny?   Is she able to breed successfully?

No she still in training...

Back in the trap and transfer days I read several accounts whereas hens and jake(s) were released in areas and breeding occurred.

Quote from: Paulmyr on May 23, 2021, 05:48:17 PM

Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 23, 2021, 05:18:19 PM
I find it amusing that some believe jakes wont or cant breed hens and about sperm not being viable. Hogwash. Thats the same as someone saying a young spike buck cant breed or be fertal. Utter nonsense. I say this because I have witnessed several times jakes breeding hens and poults being the result. Some with a spike and a doe.

Deer and turkeys are 2 completely different species with totaly different mating rituals. Actually deer have no rituals it's breeding by opprotunity. Not sure how comparing the 2 proves a point.

Thanks for enlightning me. I never knew deer and turkeys are 2 different species professor. I only speak of what I have seen over 40 years, granted several were tame turkeys. You say deer or opportunist? What do you think jakes are? You are as much of a biologist as I am. If you believe Chamberlains theory , and it is a theory , then have at it.

Quote from: Greg Massey on May 24, 2021, 04:00:53 PM

Quote from: guesswho on May 24, 2021, 03:11:22 PM
Just a question because I have no idea.   But if a Jake is not capable of breeding, then what about a Jenny?   Is she able to breed successfully?

No she still in training...

Bahahaha!

Quote from: warrent423 on May 23, 2021, 08:53:07 PM
Y'all still have not realized that this Chamberland feller is a kook

X10

THE EARTH IS FLAT!!!!!

Quote from: Greg Massey on May 24, 2021, 04:00:53 PM

Quote from: guesswho on May 24, 2021, 03:11:22 PM
Just a question because I have no idea.   But if a Jake is not capable of breeding, then what about a Jenny?   Is she able to breed successfully?

No she still in training...

HUh

Quote from: guesswho on May 24, 2021, 03:11:22 PM
Just a question because I have no idea.   But if a Jake is not capable of breeding, then what about a Jenny?   Is she able to breed successfully?

The answer is yes ! Jenny and I have two children...
:z-flirtysmile3: :z-flirtysmile3:
 

My chickens, guinea fowl, and heritage breed turkeys reproduce just fine in their first year. I would think that wild turkeys do as well.

Wild turkeys reach sexual maturity in a year.  I've read that a very low percentage of Jakes may actually breed by the end of the breeding season.  I used to raise all the yard birds many years ago in the early 1990s and obtained some eastern wild turkey chicks/poults at a very young age that were hatched in the spring.  They ended up being all hens.  In the spring of the following year they certainly acted like they wanted to breed as they would lay down in front of the domestic jakes they were raised with but the jakes wouldn't breed them.  We had wild turkeys in the woods around the house and I heard a gobbler a few times near the house.  All 3 hens left soon after.  A month or two later a hen would hang around the house with several poults and she wouldn't run when approached so we figured it was one I raised.  I take this as an anecdotal, isolated case in unusual circumstances.  So I'd say the hens "can" breed and have poults the first year, but I'd say this is the exception rather than the rule.  According to the articles I've read the hens (most I believe) can and do breed once early and throughout breeding season and can lay a full clutch of fertile eggs from that first breeding.  The sperm can stay viable to fertilize eggs for 8 weeks.  They can be bred by other mature toms after they're first bred but it's probably unnecessary.  Spring gobbler seasons start in each state after the breeding season has begun.  This information I obtained from several Land Grant university Extension service websites. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Greg Massey on May 24, 2021, 10:17:15 AM
The short answer is jakes contribute very little to reproduction. It's obvious that jakes are not developed and are not fully capable of producing the level of sperm needed to fertilize clutches, but i will agree they do try to breed with hens. Research has shown that very small percentage of jakes are just capable of sufficient breeding during their first breeding season. You have to realize as the spring season is going on gobblers testosterone levels continues to grow and it makes sense that a jakes level of testosterone will decrease in that first years as the breeding season whines down. Same with gobblers, coming back together into a flock, it's all a breeding cycle.. IMO....

Which research ? If you remember  Greg.

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 24, 2021, 11:41:36 PM
Wild turkeys reach sexual maturity in a year.  I've read that a very low percentage of Jakes may actually breed by the end of the breeding season.  I used to raise all the yard birds many years ago in the early 1990s and obtained some eastern wild turkey chicks/poults at a very young age that were hatched in the spring.  They ended up being all hens.  In the spring of the following year they certainly acted like they wanted to breed as they would lay down in front of the domestic jakes they were raised with but the jakes wouldn't breed them.  We had wild turkeys in the woods around the house and I heard a gobbler a few times near the house.  All 3 hens left soon after.  A month or two later a hen would hang around the house with several poults and she wouldn't run when approached so we figured it was one I raised.  I take this as an anecdotal, isolated case in unusual circumstances.  So I'd say the hens "can" breed and have poults the first year, but I'd say this is the exception rather than the rule.  According to the articles I've read the hens (most I believe) can and do breed once early and throughout breeding season and can lay a full clutch of fertile eggs from that first breeding.  The sperm can stay viable to fertilize eggs for 8 weeks.  They can be bred by other mature toms after they're first bred but it's probably unnecessary.  Spring gobbler seasons start in each state after the breeding season has begun.  This information I obtained from several Land Grant university Extension service websites. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Will have to check out the land grant university research. Thanks.

Quote from: Howie g on May 24, 2021, 10:05:37 PM

Quote from: guesswho on May 24, 2021, 03:11:22 PM
Just a question because I have no idea.   But if a Jake is not capable of breeding, then what about a Jenny?   Is she able to breed successfully?

The answer is yes ! Jenny and I have two children...
:z-flirtysmile3: :z-flirtysmile3:

Does Forrest know about this?

An oldie but goody.

Lewis, John B., and Robert P. Breitenbach. "Breeding Potential of Subadult Wild Turkey Gobblers." The Journal of Wildlife Management, vol. 30, no. 3, 1966, pp.

The take home message from the Missouri study indicated verbatim from the abstract "The sample taken from the testes of subadult gobblers shot during the 1964 and 1965 turkey seasons showed 28 percent (14 of 50) which possessed mature sperm. These data imply that these subadults could be capable of breeding." 

So just over 25% of jakes "could" breed, which doesn't necessarily mean they do.  They just have to find the right hen I suppose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you really want to dry your eyeballs out reading the actual articles that the Land Grant Extension Service boils down for the lay reader, go to Google and type in Google Scholar.  Google Scholar is the nerdy scientific version of Google that searches for research papers on any and all things.  Once in Google Scholar type in
"eastern wild turkey breeding season".  You will be able to access the abstracts (cliff notes version of the actual article) for your reading pleasure.  Most of the actual articles are only available through paid subscriptions.  But trust me, the abstracts are good enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 25, 2021, 08:26:18 PM
An oldie but goody.

Lewis, John B., and Robert P. Breitenbach. "Breeding Potential of Subadult Wild Turkey Gobblers." The Journal of Wildlife Management, vol. 30, no. 3, 1966, pp.

The take home message from the Missouri study indicated verbatim from the abstract "The sample taken from the testes of subadult gobblers shot during the 1964 and 1965 turkey seasons showed 28 percent (14 of 50) which possessed mature sperm. These data imply that these subadults could be capable of breeding." 

So just over 25% of jakes "could" breed, which doesn't necessarily mean they do.  They just have to find the right hen I suppose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thanks, good info.

Quote from: guesswho on May 25, 2021, 08:13:29 PM

Quote from: Howie g on May 24, 2021, 10:05:37 PM

Quote from: guesswho on May 24, 2021, 03:11:22 PM
Just a question because I have no idea.   But if a Jake is not capable of breeding, then what about a Jenny?   Is she able to breed successfully?

The answer is yes ! Jenny and I have two children...
:z-flirtysmile3: :z-flirtysmile3:

Does Forrest know about this?
     No , he doesn't know . Please don't tell him ,,, lord knows I can't out run him  :fud:

 Thanks gallopavo ,
There are probably multiple factors involved in viable sperm , early or late hatch , health , T levels . etc. Maybe we are seeing the more mature Jakes with a hen and breeding and the less mature running in gangs or pairs . Not every year , but I do see a breeding jake , usually with a single hen or in a breeding group , but he is usually positioned on the edge of a breeding group . Rare , but I have seen breeding group just jakes , which concerned me as I  thought maybe a case of over harvest in that area .

Quote from: guesswho on May 24, 2021, 03:11:22 PM
Just a question because I have no idea.   But if a Jake is not capable of breeding, then what about a Jenny?   Is she able to breed successfully?

In Lovett Williams' book he says the largest nest he ever found was that of a jenny...17 eggs.

Quote from: Shiloh on May 23, 2021, 04:14:18 PM
I have two chicks in a box in my garage that were fathered by a Jake.  That's for certain.

its not 100% of jakes. Its just most of them. Im sure a super early hatch super jake, is probably far enough along as some point late enough in a season to be fertile. But what percent of jakes are at that point. Probably not most of them, you also have to factor in some years you hardly see jakes if theres enough gobbling adult toms around to keep them quiet. Add the pecking order into that, and the odds of a jake being the breeder if he was capable are slim. Except this year of course, where there was lots of jakes and few adults. I imagine if there was a year where a few older jakes did some breeding it was definetly this year

Quote from: Shiloh on May 23, 2021, 04:14:18 PM
I have two chicks in a box in my garage that were fathered by a Jake.  That's for certain.

I've told them the same thing on here before but they don't want to hear it. My son's turkeys were all in a pen and there's no way anything other than the jake bred his hens. They both hatched and raised poults.

Quote from: dublelung on May 27, 2021, 10:46:24 AM

Quote from: Shiloh on May 23, 2021, 04:14:18 PM
I have two chicks in a box in my garage that were fathered by a Jake.  That's for certain.

I've told them the same thing on here before but they don't want to hear it. My son's turkeys were all in a pen and there's no way anything other than the jake bred his hens. They both hatched and raised poults.

I believe it, but it's not a natural occurrence.  The hens couldn't be bred by a more mature Tom in a pen-raised situation because only the Jake was available.  So once the hens and the Jake reached sexual maturity in the pen, they bred successfully and the hen laid eggs and had poults.  In the wild the mature Toms are available to breed earlier as many jakes don't reach sexual maturity until later in the season.  The mature Toms breed the mature hens and, since they are more dominant than jakes, probably breed young hens as they mature.  So the mature Toms breed the vast majority of the hens, leaving a few to be potentially bred by jakes that reach maturity before the breeding season ends.  That's why the numbers show that jakes don't contribute to bred hens as much.  It's not that a Jake can't successfully breed a hen and produce poults, it's just that the numbers are against them doing that to a high level.  I would ad here that gobbling jakes occur more towards the end of the season because that's when they begin to reach sexual maturity.  So they're really gobblers with jake beards and spurs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Two scenarios = early hatch jakes will breed when the hens are willing .
2 = when there are no mature gobblers in a given area .

Quote from: Howie g on May 27, 2021, 01:04:41 PM
Two scenarios = early hatch jakes will breed when the hens are willing .
2 = when there are no mature gobblers in a given area .

Yes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 27, 2021, 01:45:03 PM

Quote from: Howie g on May 27, 2021, 01:04:41 PM
Two scenarios = early hatch jakes will breed when the hens are willing .
2 = when there are no mature gobblers in a given area .

Yes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Up to 28 percent of Jakes possessed mature sperm and could be capable of breeding according to study.
from google scholar.

Quote from: owlhoot on May 27, 2021, 08:03:55 PM

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 27, 2021, 01:45:03 PM

Quote from: Howie g on May 27, 2021, 01:04:41 PM
Two scenarios = early hatch jakes will breed when the hens are willing .
2 = when there are no mature gobblers in a given area .

Yes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Up to 28 percent of Jakes possessed mature sperm and could be capable of breeding according to study.
from google scholar.

Yes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: WV Flopper on May 23, 2021, 07:26:58 PM
Man I wish half of this dumbness was true.... We would have a lot less stupid people in the word, if it applied to less than Alpha males as it does to subordinate Toms as some would think.

Think people, think.

This may be the smartest thing I've read here. I've not finished the thread nor do I intend to. But, for the love of God, they're not going through this for fun. Very few organisms go through the mating ritual just for fun. Some mammals (humans, apes, dolphins) will but the rest of the animal kingdom isn't set up that way. Come on gang. Don't overthink this too much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Howie g on May 23, 2021, 11:06:30 PM
Didn't know there was sooo many turkeyoligist !

All you need is a FB or Instagram account now and follow the right people.

What's dangerous is when so many start believing theory as fact and then push their state agencies to make changes based on theory rather than science.

Quote from: wvmntnhick on May 28, 2021, 12:14:16 AM

Quote from: WV Flopper on May 23, 2021, 07:26:58 PM
Man I wish half of this dumbness was true.... We would have a lot less stupid people in the word, if it applied to less than Alpha males as it does to subordinate Toms as some would think.

Think people, think.

This may be the smartest thing I've read here. I've not finished the thread nor do I intend to. But, for the love of God, they're not going through this for fun. Very few organisms go through the mating ritual just for fun. Some mammals (humans, apes, dolphins) will but the rest of the animal kingdom isn't set up that way. Come on gang. Don't overthink this too much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have no idea what either of you said...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All of this is all well and good, but the real question comes down to whether or not, in any given turkey population, there are enough (viable) male turkeys in the population to accomplish "breeding saturation".  That is, are all breeding-age hens being fertilized such that they have the opportunity to nest and potentially pull off a successful clutch of poults? 

If there are not, then THAT is the problem, not whether it is a mature gobbler or jake that is doing the breeding.  Bottom line is that if wildlife biologist's anywhere are focusing on viability of the male turkeys in any given area without correspondingly investigating the percentage of breeding-age hens in that population that are producing fertile eggs, then they are just spinning their wheels. 

Sure, it is a good idea to know all these percentages about male turkeys, but ultimately, it all comes down to making sure the hens are being fertilized in some way, shape, or form.  Really, I suspect that these corresponding studies are being carried out at the same time.  I'm just pointing out the obvious....  :)

 Gallapavo  ,
  The jakes where I hunt in Oklahoma and Texas Gobble like crazy the first week of season . After that , sometimes I think they disappear or I see them just pick their head up and look as the season progresses . For sure they will get hot and gobble , my experience is they cool down .

Quote from: dah on May 28, 2021, 07:44:08 PM
Gallapavo  ,
  The jakes where I hunt in Oklahoma and Texas Gobble like crazy the first week of season . After that , sometimes I think they disappear or I see them just pick their head up and look as the season progresses . For sure they will get hot and gobble , my experience is they cool down .

Wow.  I'm probably wrong then.  I do know that where I hunt that my only experience with gobbling jakes is late in the season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 Doubt you are wrong , just turkeys being turkeys . Good luck .

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 29, 2021, 06:09:46 AM

Quote from: dah on May 28, 2021, 07:44:08 PM
Gallapavo  ,
  The jakes where I hunt in Oklahoma and Texas Gobble like crazy the first week of season . After that , sometimes I think they disappear or I see them just pick their head up and look as the season progresses . For sure they will get hot and gobble , my experience is they cool down .

Wow.  I'm probably wrong then.  I do know that where I hunt that my only experience with gobbling jakes is late in the season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seems like they gobble anytime during the season here in Mo. Sometimes later on in this season unless you get a visual a guy can get fooled because some jakes don't sound any different than adult toms.
North central Kansas hybrids with 3" beards can make your jaw drop when they gobble , all you can say is NO WAY did that come out of him.

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 28, 2021, 08:47:02 AM
All of this is all well and good, but the real question comes down to whether or not, in any given turkey population, there are enough (viable) male turkeys in the population to accomplish "breeding saturation".  That is, are all breeding-age hens being fertilized such that they have the opportunity to nest and potentially pull off a successful clutch of poults? 

If there are not, then THAT is the problem, not whether it is a mature gobbler or jake that is doing the breeding.  Bottom line is that if wildlife biologist's anywhere are focusing on viability of the male turkeys in any given area without correspondingly investigating the percentage of breeding-age hens in that population that are producing fertile eggs, then they are just spinning their wheels. 

Sure, it is a good idea to know all these percentages about male turkeys, but ultimately, it all comes down to making sure the hens are being fertilized in some way, shape, or form.  Really, I suspect that these corresponding studies are being carried out at the same time.  I'm just pointing out the obvious....  :)

Lots of studies of hens nesting percentages. Nest and re-nest of older hens and younger ones obviously.

Quote from: owlhoot on May 30, 2021, 12:41:04 AM

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 28, 2021, 08:47:02 AM
All of this is all well and good, but the real question comes down to whether or not, in any given turkey population, there are enough (viable) male turkeys in the population to accomplish "breeding saturation".  That is, are all breeding-age hens being fertilized such that they have the opportunity to nest and potentially pull off a successful clutch of poults? 

If there are not, then THAT is the problem, not whether it is a mature gobbler or jake that is doing the breeding.  Bottom line is that if wildlife biologist's anywhere are focusing on viability of the male turkeys in any given area without correspondingly investigating the percentage of breeding-age hens in that population that are producing fertile eggs, then they are just spinning their wheels. 

Sure, it is a good idea to know all these percentages about male turkeys, but ultimately, it all comes down to making sure the hens are being fertilized in some way, shape, or form.  Really, I suspect that these corresponding studies are being carried out at the same time.  I'm just pointing out the obvious....  :)

Lots of studies of hens nesting percentages. Nest and re-nest of older hens and younger ones obviously.

As far as I am aware (which I admit I may not be fully up to date on the matter), those studies are based on populations where the "base parameters" include the assumption that there are enough gobblers in the population to result in full breeding of the hens in that population.  Nesting percentages based on the assumption of full breeding are not the same as percentages based on an inadequate number of gobblers available to accomplish that.

My current thought/question is that, in these seriously declining turkey populations we currently speak of, are there too few viable gobblers,...whether they be mature birds or jakes,...to result in all viable hens being bred?  I am not so sure there have been studies done to find that out,...perhaps there have been. 

Spring gobbler seasons are based on the fundamental premise that, since turkeys are polygamous, there will always be a harvestable surplus of gobblers in any given population each spring.  Without regular, recurring population recruitment (i.e....successful nesting), every year we hunt a population that is not having that nesting success, we are gradually decreasing the number of viable gobblers.  At some point in time, that decrease has to result in inadequate/incomplete breeding of the hen population. 

Have we reached that point in some populations now?  I don't know, but in my mind THAT is a very important consideration in all of this discussion.  When we reach a point where there are not enough gobblers left to result in that "breeding saturation" mentioned,....and we continue to kill a few more of the remaining gobblers each spring,...there comes a point where we cannot justify that fundamental spring-hunting premise of "surplus gobblers".  There has to be a tipping point where there are no longer surplus males. 

Again, I don't know if there are areas of the country where this situation exists,...but it is something that needs to be ascertained at some point.  And finally, I want to emphasize that in no way am I trying to state that spring gobbler hunting,....within healthy turkey populations,...is a significant factor in population declines.  It is not,...but there comes a point in certain situations where we have to ask ourselves,..."should we be killing the few remaining gobblers we have in this population?"

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 30, 2021, 08:47:30 AM
At some point in time, that decrease has to result in inadequate/incomplete breeding of the hen population. 

Have we reached that point in some populations now?  I don't know, but in my mind THAT is a very important consideration in all of this discussion.

I agree with you 100% and I'd say yes to your question whether we've reached that point in some current populations. I'd add that it's not only the overall loss but that research now suggests the removal of alphas early season (something greatly increased by modern tactics—strutter decoys, reaping, etc.) and the subsequent timeline of restructuring the social ladder also leads to inadequate/incomplete breeding cycles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 30, 2021, 11:55:39 AM

I'd add that it's not only the overall loss but that research now suggests the removal of alphas early season (something greatly increased by modern tactics—strutter decoys, reaping, etc.) and the subsequent timeline of restructuring the social ladder also leads to inadequate/incomplete breeding cycles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I keep seeing this repeated over and over on social media and forums. It is important to realize that this HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN BY SCIENCE. It is currently THEORY and there is research looking into it. Structuring seasons based on theory is a dangerous path because once opportunity is taken away, we likely won't get it back!

Not saying the above is wrong. But it is important that we don't start letting season structures be adjusted based on theory, mostly that of one man.

Quote from: deerhunt1988 on May 30, 2021, 12:15:57 PM

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 30, 2021, 11:55:39 AM

I'd add that it's not only the overall loss but that research now suggests the removal of alphas early season (something greatly increased by modern tactics—strutter decoys, reaping, etc.) and the subsequent timeline of restructuring the social ladder also leads to inadequate/incomplete breeding cycles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I keep seeing this repeated over and over on social media and forums. It is important to realize that this HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN BY SCIENCE. It is currently THEORY and there is research looking into it. Structuring seasons based on theory is a dangerous path because once opportunity is taken away, we likely won't get it back!

Not saying the above is wrong. But it is important that we don't start letting season structures be adjusted based on theory, mostly that of one man.

I didn't say anything about restructuring season dates. I said that research now suggests the timeline for social ladder restructuring takes longer and has a greater impact than previously thought, that when an alpha is taken out of a population that spot isn't filled the next day or days or perhaps even weeks, and that that can and does have an impact on inadequate/incomplete breeding cycles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: warrent423 on May 23, 2021, 08:53:07 PM
Y'all still have not realized that this Chamberland feller is a kook

Curious. Why is he a kook?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 30, 2021, 12:37:19 PM

Quote from: deerhunt1988 on May 30, 2021, 12:15:57 PM

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 30, 2021, 11:55:39 AM

I'd add that it's not only the overall loss but that research now suggests the removal of alphas early season (something greatly increased by modern tactics—strutter decoys, reaping, etc.) and the subsequent timeline of restructuring the social ladder also leads to inadequate/incomplete breeding cycles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I keep seeing this repeated over and over on social media and forums. It is important to realize that this HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN BY SCIENCE. It is currently THEORY and there is research looking into it. Structuring seasons based on theory is a dangerous path because once opportunity is taken away, we likely won't get it back!

Not saying the above is wrong. But it is important that we don't start letting season structures be adjusted based on theory, mostly that of one man.

I didn't say anything about restructuring season dates. I said that research now suggests the timeline for social ladder restructuring takes longer and has a greater impact than previously thought, that when an alpha is taken out of a population that spot isn't filled the next day or days or perhaps even weeks, and that that can and does have an impact on inadequate/incomplete breeding cycles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Restructuring dates?  Hasn't that already happened? In some southern states. And isn't it based off theory?

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 30, 2021, 08:47:30 AM

Quote from: owlhoot on May 30, 2021, 12:41:04 AM

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 28, 2021, 08:47:02 AM
All of this is all well and good, but the real question comes down to whether or not, in any given turkey population, there are enough (viable) male turkeys in the population to accomplish "breeding saturation".  That is, are all breeding-age hens being fertilized such that they have the opportunity to nest and potentially pull off a successful clutch of poults? 

If there are not, then THAT is the problem, not whether it is a mature gobbler or jake that is doing the breeding.  Bottom line is that if wildlife biologist's anywhere are focusing on viability of the male turkeys in any given area without correspondingly investigating the percentage of breeding-age hens in that population that are producing fertile eggs, then they are just spinning their wheels. 

Sure, it is a good idea to know all these percentages about male turkeys, but ultimately, it all comes down to making sure the hens are being fertilized in some way, shape, or form.  Really, I suspect that these corresponding studies are being carried out at the same time.  I'm just pointing out the obvious....  :)

Lots of studies of hens nesting percentages. Nest and re-nest of older hens and younger ones obviously.

As far as I am aware (which I admit I may not be fully up to date on the matter), those studies are based on populations where the "base parameters" include the assumption that there are enough gobblers in the population to result in full breeding of the hens in that population.  Nesting percentages based on the assumption of full breeding are not the same as percentages based on an inadequate number of gobblers available to accomplish that.

My current thought/question is that, in these seriously declining turkey populations we currently speak of, are there too few viable gobblers,...whether they be mature birds or jakes,...to result in all viable hens being bred?  I am not so sure there have been studies done to find that out,...perhaps there have been. 

Spring gobbler seasons are based on the fundamental premise that, since turkeys are polygamous, there will always be a harvestable surplus of gobblers in any given population each spring.  Without regular, recurring population recruitment (i.e....successful nesting), every year we hunt a population that is not having that nesting success, we are gradually decreasing the number of viable gobblers.  At some point in time, that decrease has to result in inadequate/incomplete breeding of the hen population. 

Have we reached that point in some populations now?  I don't know, but in my mind THAT is a very important consideration in all of this discussion.  When we reach a point where there are not enough gobblers left to result in that "breeding saturation" mentioned,....and we continue to kill a few more of the remaining gobblers each spring,...there comes a point where we cannot justify that fundamental spring-hunting premise of "surplus gobblers".  There has to be a tipping point where there are no longer surplus males. 

Again, I don't know if there are areas of the country where this situation exists,...but it is something that needs to be ascertained at some point.  And finally, I want to emphasize that in no way am I trying to state that spring gobbler hunting,....within healthy turkey populations,...is a significant factor in population declines.  It is not,...but there comes a point in certain situations where we have to ask ourselves,..."should we be killing the few remaining gobblers we have in this population?"

Oh ok. That is interesting , I have wondered about that and like others try not to shoot out an area we hunt, based of sightings or amount of gobbling birds.
Stop shooting the jakes, let them grow into breeders.
Some of the studies I read recommended by Meleagris gallapova showed the percentage of tagged hens that nested with fairly high percentages. But Toms tagged seemed sufficient, so who knows?

I'm still trying to figure out what constitutes a theory or a fact in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 31, 2021, 08:00:06 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what constitutes a theory or a fact in this thread.

Theory and fact tend to bleed into each other.  Furthermore, what is a theory in one instance may actually be a fact in another.  Intuitive reasoning based on empirical evidence has to come into play at some point.  Personally, I have seen way too much evidence that the people in charge of the decision making processes in many instances lack the ability to comprehend that,...or if they have the ability, they tend to ignore it.    ??? ;D

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 31, 2021, 09:15:44 AM

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 31, 2021, 08:00:06 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what constitutes a theory or a fact in this thread.

Theory and fact tend to bleed into each other.  Furthermore, what is a theory in one instance may actually be a fact in another.  Intuitive reasoning based on empirical evidence has to come into play at some point.  Personally, I have seen way too much evidence that the people in charge of the decision making processes in many instances lack the ability to comprehend that,...or if they have the ability, they tend to ignore it.    ??? ;D

Huh? Can ya dumb that down for me? Maybe draw some pictures or something

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Quote from: Happy on May 31, 2021, 09:34:11 AM

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 31, 2021, 09:15:44 AM

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 31, 2021, 08:00:06 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what constitutes a theory or a fact in this thread.

Theory and fact tend to bleed into each other.  Furthermore, what is a theory in one instance may actually be a fact in another.  Intuitive reasoning based on empirical evidence has to come into play at some point.  Personally, I have seen way too much evidence that the people in charge of the decision making processes in many instances lack the ability to comprehend that,...or if they have the ability, they tend to ignore it.    ??? ;D

Huh? Can ya dumb that down for me? Maybe draw some pictures or something

:TooFunny: Not sure that is possible in your case...   :toothy12: :toothy9:

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 31, 2021, 08:00:06 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what constitutes a theory or a fact in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would like to hear what you have come up with so far.

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 31, 2021, 09:15:44 AM

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 31, 2021, 08:00:06 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what constitutes a theory or a fact in this thread.

Theory and fact tend to bleed into each other.  Furthermore, what is a theory in one instance may actually be a fact in another.  Intuitive reasoning based on empirical evidence has to come into play at some point.

If you look at my quote on my OG internet page you can see that I base most things on empirical evidence.  Published research studies are documented results that test empirical observations/evidence.  They give proof to what we have questions about.  So far as this thread is concerned, based on what I've read, is that jakes may contribute to bred hens and resulting poults, but not to a great degree.  There are a lot of factors that contribute to evidence of declining turkey populations in a given area.  One area may have different reasons for population decline than another.  But I think that relying on jakes to breed hens is not a sustainable answer to maintaining turkey populations.  Some Jakes "may" help or contribute to bred hens, but to a small degree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 31, 2021, 10:27:46 AM

Quote from: Happy on May 31, 2021, 09:34:11 AM

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 31, 2021, 09:15:44 AM

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 31, 2021, 08:00:06 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what constitutes a theory or a fact in this thread.

Theory and fact tend to bleed into each other.  Furthermore, what is a theory in one instance may actually be a fact in another.  Intuitive reasoning based on empirical evidence has to come into play at some point.  Personally, I have seen way too much evidence that the people in charge of the decision making processes in many instances lack the ability to comprehend that,...or if they have the ability, they tend to ignore it.    ??? ;D

Huh? Can ya dumb that down for me? Maybe draw some pictures or something

:TooFunny: Not sure that is possible in your case...   :toothy12: :toothy9:

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 31, 2021, 12:29:41 PM

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 31, 2021, 09:15:44 AM

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 31, 2021, 08:00:06 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what constitutes a theory or a fact in this thread.

Theory and fact tend to bleed into each other.  Furthermore, what is a theory in one instance may actually be a fact in another.  Intuitive reasoning based on empirical evidence has to come into play at some point.

If you look at my quote on my OG internet page you can see that I base most things on empirical evidence.  Published research studies are documented results that test empirical observations/evidence.  They give proof to what we have questions about.  So far as this thread is concerned, based on what I've read, is that jakes may contribute to bred hens and resulting poults, but not to a great degree.  There are a lot of factors that contribute to evidence of declining turkey populations in a given area.  One area may have different reasons for population decline than another.  But I think that relying on jakes to breed hens is not a sustainable answer to maintaining turkey populations.  Some Jakes "may" help or contribute to bred hens, but to a small degree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok, yes. Due to jakes having a low percentage of breeding capability from studies from harvested jakes.
I don't believe that jakes can be relied upon to maintain turkey populations.
I do believe that jakes should not be legal game and that they should be left to grow into future breeders, left for replacing the adult toms taken by hunting and those dying from natural causes such as age.

Didn't read all the responses, but around 20 to 25% of Jakes are sexually mature and capable of reproduction their first year.  (Totally different than pen raised birds which are fed all they could want to eat... almost all of them are sexually mature their first spring)

Almost all jennies can produce a clutch their first spring, but usually a month or so after the adult hens lay.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk

I am just smart enough (barely) to say "I don't know".
I do not dismiss Chamberlains research. I am not a biologist, but i have chased these crazy birds waay more than any sane person
ever would have.
There are two things, through my observations (not scientific research), that I am quite certain about.
One is that not all male turkeys are breeders, including some non jakes. Second is that if you want to experience an early season gobbling and pecking party later in the season, then shoot the dominant bird in any given area. I have seen it happen too much over the years to dismiss it.
Both of these things do lead me to believe that some of these findings are worth listening to. Just my .02

There is actually a study being conducted right now on the viability of Jakes as breeders. 

Quote from: Paulmyr on May 24, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
THE EARTH IS FLAT!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Gooserbat on June 04, 2021, 09:26:37 AM
There is actually a study being conducted right now on the viability of Jakes as breeders.

Thanks.
If you get some information about it i would like to read about it.