Jakes not breeding ?

[Meleagris gallopavo]

Two scenarios = early hatch jakes will breed when the hens are willing .
2 = when there are no mature gobblers in a given area .

Yes


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[owlhoot]

Two scenarios = early hatch jakes will breed when the hens are willing .
2 = when there are no mature gobblers in a given area .

Yes


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Up to 28 percent of Jakes possessed mature sperm and could be capable of breeding according to study.
from google scholar.

[Meleagris gallopavo]

Two scenarios = early hatch jakes will breed when the hens are willing .
2 = when there are no mature gobblers in a given area .

Yes


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Up to 28 percent of Jakes possessed mature sperm and could be capable of breeding according to study.
from google scholar.

Yes.


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[wvmntnhick]

Man I wish half of this dumbness was true.... We would have a lot less stupid people in the word, if it applied to less than Alpha males as it does to subordinate Toms as some would think.

Think people, think.

This may be the smartest thing I've read here. I've not finished the thread nor do I intend to. But, for the love of God, they're not going through this for fun. Very few organisms go through the mating ritual just for fun. Some mammals (humans, apes, dolphins) will but the rest of the animal kingdom isn't set up that way. Come on gang. Don't overthink this too much.


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[deerhunt1988]

Didn't know there was sooo many turkeyoligist !

All you need is a FB or Instagram account now and follow the right people.

What's dangerous is when so many start believing theory as fact and then push their state agencies to make changes based on theory rather than science.

[Meleagris gallopavo]

Man I wish half of this dumbness was true.... We would have a lot less stupid people in the word, if it applied to less than Alpha males as it does to subordinate Toms as some would think.

Think people, think.

This may be the smartest thing I've read here. I've not finished the thread nor do I intend to. But, for the love of God, they're not going through this for fun. Very few organisms go through the mating ritual just for fun. Some mammals (humans, apes, dolphins) will but the rest of the animal kingdom isn't set up that way. Come on gang. Don't overthink this too much.


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I have no idea what either of you said...


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[GobbleNut]

All of this is all well and good, but the real question comes down to whether or not, in any given turkey population, there are enough (viable) male turkeys in the population to accomplish "breeding saturation".  That is, are all breeding-age hens being fertilized such that they have the opportunity to nest and potentially pull off a successful clutch of poults? 

If there are not, then THAT is the problem, not whether it is a mature gobbler or jake that is doing the breeding.  Bottom line is that if wildlife biologist's anywhere are focusing on viability of the male turkeys in any given area without correspondingly investigating the percentage of breeding-age hens in that population that are producing fertile eggs, then they are just spinning their wheels. 

Sure, it is a good idea to know all these percentages about male turkeys, but ultimately, it all comes down to making sure the hens are being fertilized in some way, shape, or form.  Really, I suspect that these corresponding studies are being carried out at the same time.  I'm just pointing out the obvious.... 

[dah]

 Gallapavo  ,
  The jakes where I hunt in Oklahoma and Texas Gobble like crazy the first week of season . After that , sometimes I think they disappear or I see them just pick their head up and look as the season progresses . For sure they will get hot and gobble , my experience is they cool down .

[Meleagris gallopavo]

Gallapavo  ,
  The jakes where I hunt in Oklahoma and Texas Gobble like crazy the first week of season . After that , sometimes I think they disappear or I see them just pick their head up and look as the season progresses . For sure they will get hot and gobble , my experience is they cool down .

Wow.  I'm probably wrong then.  I do know that where I hunt that my only experience with gobbling jakes is late in the season.


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[dah]

 Doubt you are wrong , just turkeys being turkeys . Good luck .

[owlhoot]

Gallapavo  ,
  The jakes where I hunt in Oklahoma and Texas Gobble like crazy the first week of season . After that , sometimes I think they disappear or I see them just pick their head up and look as the season progresses . For sure they will get hot and gobble , my experience is they cool down .

Wow.  I'm probably wrong then.  I do know that where I hunt that my only experience with gobbling jakes is late in the season.


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Seems like they gobble anytime during the season here in Mo. Sometimes later on in this season unless you get a visual a guy can get fooled because some jakes don't sound any different than adult toms.
North central Kansas hybrids with 3" beards can make your jaw drop when they gobble , all you can say is NO WAY did that come out of him.

[owlhoot]

All of this is all well and good, but the real question comes down to whether or not, in any given turkey population, there are enough (viable) male turkeys in the population to accomplish "breeding saturation".  That is, are all breeding-age hens being fertilized such that they have the opportunity to nest and potentially pull off a successful clutch of poults? 

If there are not, then THAT is the problem, not whether it is a mature gobbler or jake that is doing the breeding.  Bottom line is that if wildlife biologist's anywhere are focusing on viability of the male turkeys in any given area without correspondingly investigating the percentage of breeding-age hens in that population that are producing fertile eggs, then they are just spinning their wheels. 

Sure, it is a good idea to know all these percentages about male turkeys, but ultimately, it all comes down to making sure the hens are being fertilized in some way, shape, or form.  Really, I suspect that these corresponding studies are being carried out at the same time.  I'm just pointing out the obvious.... 

Lots of studies of hens nesting percentages. Nest and re-nest of older hens and younger ones obviously.

[GobbleNut]

All of this is all well and good, but the real question comes down to whether or not, in any given turkey population, there are enough (viable) male turkeys in the population to accomplish "breeding saturation".  That is, are all breeding-age hens being fertilized such that they have the opportunity to nest and potentially pull off a successful clutch of poults? 

If there are not, then THAT is the problem, not whether it is a mature gobbler or jake that is doing the breeding.  Bottom line is that if wildlife biologist's anywhere are focusing on viability of the male turkeys in any given area without correspondingly investigating the percentage of breeding-age hens in that population that are producing fertile eggs, then they are just spinning their wheels. 

Sure, it is a good idea to know all these percentages about male turkeys, but ultimately, it all comes down to making sure the hens are being fertilized in some way, shape, or form.  Really, I suspect that these corresponding studies are being carried out at the same time.  I'm just pointing out the obvious.... 

Lots of studies of hens nesting percentages. Nest and re-nest of older hens and younger ones obviously.

As far as I am aware (which I admit I may not be fully up to date on the matter), those studies are based on populations where the "base parameters" include the assumption that there are enough gobblers in the population to result in full breeding of the hens in that population.  Nesting percentages based on the assumption of full breeding are not the same as percentages based on an inadequate number of gobblers available to accomplish that.

My current thought/question is that, in these seriously declining turkey populations we currently speak of, are there too few viable gobblers,...whether they be mature birds or jakes,...to result in all viable hens being bred?  I am not so sure there have been studies done to find that out,...perhaps there have been. 

Spring gobbler seasons are based on the fundamental premise that, since turkeys are polygamous, there will always be a harvestable surplus of gobblers in any given population each spring.  Without regular, recurring population recruitment (i.e....successful nesting), every year we hunt a population that is not having that nesting success, we are gradually decreasing the number of viable gobblers.  At some point in time, that decrease has to result in inadequate/incomplete breeding of the hen population. 

Have we reached that point in some populations now?  I don't know, but in my mind THAT is a very important consideration in all of this discussion.  When we reach a point where there are not enough gobblers left to result in that "breeding saturation" mentioned,....and we continue to kill a few more of the remaining gobblers each spring,...there comes a point where we cannot justify that fundamental spring-hunting premise of "surplus gobblers".  There has to be a tipping point where there are no longer surplus males. 

Again, I don't know if there are areas of the country where this situation exists,...but it is something that needs to be ascertained at some point.  And finally, I want to emphasize that in no way am I trying to state that spring gobbler hunting,....within healthy turkey populations,...is a significant factor in population declines.  It is not,...but there comes a point in certain situations where we have to ask ourselves,..."should we be killing the few remaining gobblers we have in this population?"

[ChesterCopperpot]

At some point in time, that decrease has to result in inadequate/incomplete breeding of the hen population. 

Have we reached that point in some populations now?  I don't know, but in my mind THAT is a very important consideration in all of this discussion.

I agree with you 100% and I'd say yes to your question whether we've reached that point in some current populations. I'd add that it's not only the overall loss but that research now suggests the removal of alphas early season (something greatly increased by modern tactics—strutter decoys, reaping, etc.) and the subsequent timeline of restructuring the social ladder also leads to inadequate/incomplete breeding cycles.


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[deerhunt1988]

I'd add that it's not only the overall loss but that research now suggests the removal of alphas early season (something greatly increased by modern tactics—strutter decoys, reaping, etc.) and the subsequent timeline of restructuring the social ladder also leads to inadequate/incomplete breeding cycles.


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I keep seeing this repeated over and over on social media and forums. It is important to realize that this HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN BY SCIENCE. It is currently THEORY and there is research looking into it. Structuring seasons based on theory is a dangerous path because once opportunity is taken away, we likely won't get it back!

Not saying the above is wrong. But it is important that we don't start letting season structures be adjusted based on theory, mostly that of one man.