Longbeard Question for Clark Bush

[huntindawg]

And to your broadhead statement which one of those broadhead would get better penetration on a trophy buck shoulder?

Considering the weight difference of TSS 9 and lead 4 is threefold and their down range velocities are all but equal (within 8 fps), you would have to compare a 900 grain arrow with a 2" cut to a 300 grain arrow with a 3/4" cut (and assume velocities are the same)   Obviously I would take the 900 grain 2" cut.

#1: The actual weight difference is closer to 2.6x for the lead 4 to the TSS 9
#2: You can't just discount the density of the projectile because you don't understand the math behind how much "harder" a more dense projectile will hit (TSS) than a less dense (lead).

Would you still want to shoot that 900 grain arrow if you knew the 2" broadhead was going to become deformed instantly upon impact, losing that momentum and not pushing the energy through the animal?  Would you rather get hit w/ a 1 pound, 10" water ballon or a softball (weighs roughly 6.25 oz) at 10 yards assuming they're both going 60 mph? 

Even more importantly, would you rather get hit w/ 5 of those same water balloons or 50 of those softballs?

I do understand the math behind it.  I do know that a more dense pellet will have less drag and retain better velocity.  Also, its smaller size will allow it to penetrate ballistics gelatin better, none of that was ever discounted by me.

So even though you understand the math, you would still choose to shoot the inferior product?  Got it.

[klemsontigers7]

And to your broadhead statement which one of those broadhead would get better penetration on a trophy buck shoulder?

Considering the weight difference of TSS 9 and lead 4 is threefold and their down range velocities are all but equal (within 8 fps), you would have to compare a 900 grain arrow with a 2" cut to a 300 grain arrow with a 3/4" cut (and assume velocities are the same)   Obviously I would take the 900 grain 2" cut.

#1: The actual weight difference is closer to 2.6x for the lead 4 to the TSS 9
#2: You can't just discount the density of the projectile because you don't understand the math behind how much "harder" a more dense projectile will hit (TSS) than a less dense (lead).

Would you still want to shoot that 900 grain arrow if you knew the 2" broadhead was going to become deformed instantly upon impact, losing that momentum and not pushing the energy through the animal?  Would you rather get hit w/ a 1 pound, 10" water ballon or a softball (weighs roughly 6.25 oz) at 10 yards assuming they're both going 60 mph? 

Even more importantly, would you rather get hit w/ 5 of those same water balloons or 50 of those softballs?

I do understand the math behind it.  I do know that a more dense pellet will have less drag and retain better velocity.  Also, its smaller size will allow it to penetrate ballistics gelatin better, none of that was ever discounted by me.

So even though you understand the math, you would still choose to shoot the inferior product?  Got it.

Man, you should probably re-read what I've posted.  I can't buy TSS anywhere, and I only reload for rifles and pistols currently.  When I do decide to reload for shotguns, yes, I would like to try TSS.  I shot Hevi-13 (really 12) for about 4 years and liked it but never had phenomenal patterns in any of my guns.  The only HTL load I would shoot right now would be Federal HW but at 3 times the cost of a sufficient lead load, I just don't see the need.

[huntindawg]

I read exactly what you wrote, you equated a lead #4 to a 900 grain arrow w/ a 2" broadhead and a TSS #9 to a 300 grain arrow w/ a 3/4" broadhead and then said given the choice you would shoot the lead #4.  You didn't put any caveats on range or price or anything else, so I just took that to meant you were either ok w/ shooting inferior products or you didn't understand how the density of a projectile could cause it to deliver energy onto a target. 

Now you're telling me that you do understand that TSS/HTL is much better for smashing beaks than lead, but it's really just too expensive, which is a completely different argument. 

[klemsontigers7]

I read exactly what you wrote, you equated a lead #4 to a 900 grain arrow w/ a 2" broadhead and a TSS #9 to a 300 grain arrow w/ a 3/4" broadhead and then said given the choice you would shoot the lead #4.  You didn't put any caveats on range or price or anything else, so I just took that to meant you were either ok w/ shooting inferior products or you didn't understand how the density of a projectile could cause it to deliver energy onto a target. 

Now you're telling me that you do understand that TSS/HTL is much better for smashing beaks than lead, but it's really just too expensive, which is a completely different argument.

I've said that from the beginning.  "Much" better might need to be defined.  I do not think that HEVI-13 (12) is "MUCH" better than 11.34 lead.  Also, my reasoning started from someone trying to say TSS 9 hits as hard as lead 4.  I believe, without a doubt, that TSS 9 will kill any bird walking.  Turkeys aren't armor plated and aren't hard to kill.  1 pellet of lead 7.5 at 40 yards "could" do the trick.  Now, with Long Beards, I can slam him with 50-60 pellets at 40 yards with #6 lead for $2/shot. 

[CrustyRusty]

This is starting to remind me of the nwtf forum.

[300Mag]

I just cut open a old federal premium number six 2 1/4 to compare those pellets against the longbeards. It's easy to see the difference. I counted the pellets in the old 1/4 ounce heavier load and got 465 pellets. The new 2 ounce load has 495. That's messed up!! I wish I would of bought 5's now.

[scdxt]

This is starting to remind me of the nwtf forum.

Seems like every thread has turned into a argument since the longbeards came out. Everyone should shoot what they want and stop bashing everyone elses shell choice. They will all kill a stinking turkey. It doesnt remind me of the nwtf forum, it reminds me of 3rd grade....

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

I know some will say I'm crazy.  But I said before I don't care what the charts say on how a lead #4 or #5 will penetrate.  I'll say this and those that want to think different more power to them.  I would rather shoot Hevi-13 #7's than lead 4's for penetration on the real thing.  I used to shoot a ton of lead 4's.  The Hevi-13 #7's will beat it on penetration on the real thing.  I'm not talking about wood, tin or what have you either.  I'm talking about a live turkey.   

[CrustyRusty]

I've never had a problem killing any turkey with any load I have ever used because I know my limits, my guns limit and the loads limit.  That's probably the mantra we all should follow but I know I'm probably preaching to the choir since we all seem to be on the same page here.  The sad thing is that the folks who need that lesson most aren't on boards like these.

[BandedSpur]

I read exactly what you wrote, you equated a lead #4 to a 900 grain arrow w/ a 2" broadhead and a TSS #9 to a 300 grain arrow w/ a 3/4" broadhead and then said given the choice you would shoot the lead #4.  You didn't put any caveats on range or price or anything else, so I just took that to meant you were either ok w/ shooting inferior products or you didn't understand how the density of a projectile could cause it to deliver energy onto a target. 

Now you're telling me that you do understand that TSS/HTL is much better for smashing beaks than lead, but it's really just too expensive, which is a completely different argument.

I've said that from the beginning.  "Much" better might need to be defined.  I do not think that HEVI-13 (12) is "MUCH" better than 11.34 lead.  Also, my reasoning started from someone trying to say TSS 9 hits as hard as lead 4.  I believe, without a doubt, that TSS 9 will kill any bird walking.  Turkeys aren't armor plated and aren't hard to kill.  1 pellet of lead 7.5 at 40 yards "could" do the trick.  Now, with Long Beards, I can slam him with 50-60 pellets at 40 yards with #6 lead for $2/shot.

That "someone" was me, and not only wasn't I "trying" to say TSS 9s hit as hard as Lead 4s, I didn't say it. I said they will penetrate as deeply, and there are a whole heck of a lot more of them in a load than there are lead 4s.