Unpopular opinion on TSS 20ga

[Poohflinger]

So I normally shoot a Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag 12 gauge 3.5" magnums with copper plated #5's. I've had great success with this set up like most hunters do. Now I'm researching 20 gauge Turkey guns mostly the Stoeger M3020. This light weight absolutely awesome shotgun is being paired up with the new TSS loads. I understand that guys are getting sweet patterns at long ranges etc. etc. But are you really gaining anything other than a lighter shotgun to tote around? I'm having trouble believing that the 20 gauge  #7.5-#9 shot in a TSS load is gonna penetrate and inflict more damage than a 12 ga load with bigger shot carrying energy down range. I see the paper patterns and they do pepper the kill zone. But does the 20 gauge TSS really get you an advantage? (I've shot doves with #8 loads and watched them stutter and fly away.) I'm thinking it's just the new popular thing to do to change things up a bit right now and create more of a challenge.  Would like to hear from those that have had success with the above mentioned set ups at +40 yard situations. Thanks in advance. ?

[Greg Massey]

So I normally shoot a Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag 12 gauge 3.5" magnums with copper plated #5's. I've had great success with this set up like most hunters do. Now I'm researching 20 gauge Turkey guns mostly the Stoeger M3020. This light weight absolutely awesome shotgun is being paired up with the new TSS loads. I understand that guys are getting sweet patterns at long ranges etc. etc. But are you really gaining anything other than a lighter shotgun to tote around? I'm having trouble believing that the 20 gauge  #7.5-#9 shot in a TSS load is gonna penetrate and inflict more damage than a 12 ga load with bigger shot carrying energy down range. I see the paper patterns and they do pepper the kill zone. But does the 20 gauge TSS really get you an advantage? (I've shot doves with #8 loads and watched them stutter and fly away.) I'm thinking it's just the new popular thing to do to change things up a bit right now and create more of a challenge.  Would like to hear from those that have had success with the above mentioned set ups at +40 yard situations. Thanks in advance. ?

If you do a search on the forum, you can read all you want about lead VS TSS ... Lots of good posts and reads... Good luck...

[ol bob]

A 12 ga. #5, want come close to a 20ga, #9, in performance.

[guesswho]

Poohflinger?   Ok, I'll bite. 

I had my doubts as well.   Then shot this hog at 20 yards with 9 1/2's, yes 9 1-2's.   One shot kill, shot in the head.  And have killed a couple more since this one.   I doubt #5 copper would have had the same result.  Oh, and this was a 410. 

[mountainhunter1]

So I normally shoot a Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag 12 gauge 3.5" magnums with copper plated #5's. I've had great success with this set up like most hunters do. Now I'm researching 20 gauge Turkey guns mostly the Stoeger M3020. This light weight absolutely awesome shotgun is being paired up with the new TSS loads. I understand that guys are getting sweet patterns at long ranges etc. etc. But are you really gaining anything other than a lighter shotgun to tote around? I'm having trouble believing that the 20 gauge  #7.5-#9 shot in a TSS load is gonna penetrate and inflict more damage than a 12 ga load with bigger shot carrying energy down range. I see the paper patterns and they do pepper the kill zone. But does the 20 gauge TSS really get you an advantage? (I've shot doves with #8 loads and watched them stutter and fly away.) I'm thinking it's just the new popular thing to do to change things up a bit right now and create more of a challenge.  Would like to hear from those that have had success with the above mentioned set ups at +40 yard situations. Thanks in advance. ?

Welcome to this site, glad to have you. And Greg is correct, do a little research to give you confidence that you make the right decision for you. But a couple of things just based on what you said to help you grasp what TSS is all about: A number 8 field load in the dove field is not a load of number 9 TSS. Due to the incredible density, the very tiny #9 TSS hits with the same knockdown of somewhere between number 4-5 lead, so you cannot compare #9TSS to a #8 field load in any way because #9 TSS is going to hit as hard downrange as any lead turkey load you can come up with by going to a larger pellet in that said lead load. If you choose to shoot a TSS load in the 7-8 range, that downrange energy just goes much higher and once you get down to the #7 TSS range you will actually begin to see some complete pass through on reasonable range shots at turkeys which is unreal based on what we have seen from lead shot for decades.

Second, even though a 12 gauge can carry more pellets, the payload is being delivered at an almost identical feet per second. For example, the Apex 12 gauge 3" #9 TSS load is running at 1200 feet per second, while the Apex 20 gauge 3" inch load of #9 TSS is running at 1175 feet per second. Pretty close in speed coming out of the barrel, so both are going to inflict nearly identical damage downrange just based on velocity with the same size shot in both shells. I say this with humility just trying to help - in that when you go to TSS, conventional thinking that we have all had with lead and steel has to be dropped and we have to embrace a new way of thinking.

Even though TSS is amazing, you mentioned performance at +40 yards situations. Yes, TSS even in the smaller #9 range will kill turkeys dead dead at ranges of fifty to sixty yards and maybe slightly further. But, I humbly suggest that even with this new found far superior load you approach this with the mindset to try and still shoot your turkeys inside of 40 yards. TSS will kill a bird every single time if you hit the brain and spine at 60 yards, but there is a lot that can wrong at those extreme ranges. Read up as Greg suggested and please let us know what you decide.

P.S. - TSS does not like constriction like lead shot does. I would suggest that you stay in the range of .565-585 when trying to pattern that Stoeger if you do go the TSS route. 

[aclawrence]

I've also smoked a hog with my 20ga 9's tss. Took a couple shots though. Also, not sure if this data is helpful at all lol.


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[Gooserbat]

A 12 ga. #5, want come close to a 20ga, #9, in performance.

That's right.  Think of the biggest baddest 12 ga #5 lead as a solid 2nd base hit and the tss #9 1 5/8 oz being a home run.  I've been shooting it since it was handloading only and I've killed a lot of birds with it.  In a 20 ga #9 is the ticket.  Its going to be solidly effective beyond the 40 yard mark... Like beyond the 50 and probably the 60 and no I'm not talking about the golden BB.

[g8rvet]

It is not about knockdown power (hydrostatic pressure) because that is pretty much a meaningless term People used to say a 4 gauge lead ball had knockdown power vs a bull elephant.  Then the Nitro magnum calibers had knockdown power.  Karamojo Bell proved killing was achieved through penetration to the brain with relatively small calibers.

The exact same is true with turkey hunting.  You don't need to obliterate the brain.  You need to penetrate to the brain, spinal cord or traumatize the cord enough to damage it. The higher density, smaller shot of TSS allows penetration similar to the larger lead loads because it retains downrange energy longer (Force=mass x acceleration).  The denser the material, the greater the mass and the longer it takes to slow down.  Does not kill them any more dead than your #5 lead does, it just puts probably more pellets on target with the same penetration as the larger lead. A quick google search can show you.

Call them in close and it is all a moot point anyway.  The bird I shot this year would have been dead with #8 lead loads (under 20 yards). 

[ShortMagFan]

Go research pellet count per ounce of lead and TSS 9s. Sit and think about it and you'll start to understand

Would you rather someone throw a beach ball at you or a golf ball at the same velocity?

[howl]

The advantage of the 20 is weight savings. The advantage of the 835 is cheaper shells. Also you don't have ro worry about cracking a tooth on TSS.

Same otherwise.

[aclawrence]

The advantage of the 20 is weight savings. The advantage of the 835 is cheaper shells. Also you don't have ro worry about cracking a tooth on TSS.

Same otherwise.

Having a lightweight gun is so nice. My youth 870 20ga is a dream to carry compared to my old 12ga 870 Express Super Magnum.


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[davisd9]

Biggest thing is to understand the differences in tungsten and lead densities.

[ChesterCopperpot]

If a man wants to batter his shoulder with 3.5" magnums in 2023 I say let him All kidding aside, there's honestly little reason to hunt 12ga for anything with wings anymore aside from maybe snow geese and sandhill cranes and passing shots of that sort. With modern loads and modern chokes and modern sights a 20ga is hands down the best all around gauge at this point. You can go lighter but to me I don't know the reasoning. 20ga recoil is super negligible and if it's that bad drop it down to some 2.75" shells and lighten the pay loads. 2oz of tungsten is overkill on turkeys in just about every ethical situation.


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[Paulmyr]

Kills them just as dead as a 12 and you can hold the 3020 at the ready for extended periods of time. I know if one gobbler that came in from behind me, had I not had the 20, would still be gobbling today. No way I could have even come close to holding a 12 at the ready for fraction of the time needed to wait on him to take the last couple steps to clear some brush.

[Wigsplitter]

Go research pellet count per ounce of lead and TSS 9s. Sit and think about it and you'll start to understand

Would you rather someone throw a beach ball at you or a golf ball at the same velocity?

This!!