Virginia DWR’s take on population decline

[nativeks]

I've spent years reading this forum, but never posting, but this topic I felt I had to chime in.  I read the same article and some I agree with and some I don't.  Someone mentioned about letting the biologists do their jobs.  I agree, if they would do their jobs.  And before those on the side of the biologists rise up to stone me to death, allow me to explain.  When I first started hunting turkeys in the spring, we had a 4 week season, 2 bird limit, and we had to be out of the woods at 11am.  Biologists told us, and I remember, because I was present at an event where he said it, that we had be out of the woods at 11 so hens can nest unimpeded.  OK, fast forward about 7-8 years, the biologists told us that we could hunt until noon. then, they added a week to our season and added an additional bird to the bag limit.  Then, low and behold, they decided that we can hunt all day the last 2 weeks of the season, and then this past year decided that we can hunt all day for the last 3 weeks of the season, nesting hens be damned.  The same biologists that told us that we needed to be out of the woods before noon are now the same ones that say we can hunt all day for 60% of the season or are the same agency that the biologists work for at least.  So, someone was either wrong then, or they're wrong now.  I just don't have a lot of faith in the agency.  Another phenomenon that I've noticed, is the same agency that said, 20 years prior, that we needed to be out of the woods by noon to allow hens to nest, exhibit a shocking willingness to set fire to the woods in April and May.  I don't know why they don't do this in January or February, but I suspect it's because the agency might have to furnish coats to the people conducting this business.  Since the "progression" or evolution of our seasons (spring and fall) have changed quite a bit in the last 30 years or so, and with all the advancements in study and research and data collection and access to information, to lay the decline in turkey populations at feet of mother nature, ie wet springs, to me is unpalatable.  Dye could have saved himself some typing if he would have just said "if you want turkey populations to return, then buy an EV and turn in your gas stove ASAP".

The coyote analogy, I'd agree with.  People that blame coyotes for turkey decline are probably the same people that blame muskies for eating all the bass out of the river, but disregard the fact that guides float up and down the river almost daily with paying clients in tow.  I don't know anyone that hunts coons anymore, and I don't know, but it seems like I see a heck of lot more skunks these days than I used to, and there are a heck of a lot more bears than there used to be.  I can't see a bear catching many turkeys, but I'd imagine that they could make quick work of a clutch of eggs.

I would, personally, like to see Va DWR take a more fluid approach to the seasons.  If the trends start downward, back off a tag, back off a week, back off on all-day hunting.  All-day hunting, I find is pretty close to cruel and unusual punishment anyway.  The only benefit I see to it is that it gives the roost shooters twice the opportunity that they'd normally have.

The timber harvest business, I'm willing to admit, might hold some validity.  A place that I hunt regularly, a tract of about 2000 acres, had a shade less than half of it timbered 3 years ago.  I, naively, thought that cutting the timber would concentrate more turkeys on the area that was not cut.  How wrong I was.  Not only did the turkeys disappear from the area that was cut, they disappeared from the areas surrounding as well, not completely but pretty close.  We (my friends, friends kids, my kid, myself) used to get about 8-12 gobblers a year off the place.  Last year, there was not a single gobbler taken off the property by us.  Matter of fact, I didn't even hear one last year, what time I spent there.

Got to put fire on the ground when you have resources to do it, and when you can do the most good. Fire timing effects how the plant community responds. An example:
The last 2 years I have done a growing season burn around Sept 1 on my property. Not only does it knock the sericea back, but it is great for killing brush.
My spring burned patch had chest high sericea in areas mid summer while it was hard to find it in the growing season burn area.

I will be putting fire into 10 acres of grass as soon as the weather allows. If I can get it in march it favors forbs. If I do it mid april to may it favors the warm season grasses.

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[HillclimberWV]

Red_nekkerson the only pushback to your statements i will say is that i think you are blaming the wrong portion of the agency. I would be willing to bet that the decisions you listed are pushed more by the people concerned with generating revenue than the bioligists on the ground.

[mountainhunter1]

Red_Nekkerson brought up a good thought - one that has puzzled me for a long time. Question is simply this: Why do so many states in the south do most of their burning in April and May while turkeys are sitting on the nest? I have wanted an answer to that for years.

[GobbleNut]

Red_Nekkerson brought up a good thought - one that has puzzled me for a long time. Question is simply this: Why do so many states in the south do most of their burning in April and May while turkeys are sitting on the nest? I have wanted an answer to that for years.

I'm not sure why some states burn when they do, but I do know that the general idea is to burn when the moisture content of the fuel is such that the vegetation will burn without the risk of wildfire,...and apparently in some places that window of time when those conditions occur is pretty narrow.  Unfortunately, based on what has happened recently with controlled burns getting out of hand (example: New Mexico in 2022), I suspect there will be much more scrutiny about controlled burning. 

[Red_Nekkerson]

I didn't mean to come off as being against controlled burns or that I'm against timbering.  I do believe that both can and are beneficial.  I just question the timing the of the burns.  Burning in April and May just seems a little off to me, when turkey numbers are in decline.  Imagine them burning in November.  The deer community would be outraged and would see that those responsible were rode out of the state on a rail.

HillClimberWV, I agree...I think these guys are going to do what they're told to do, and say what they're told say, and the bottom line is $$$.  I've read somewhere or heard someone say that it's not worth it to go to a state as a non-resident to Spring Gobbler hunt if they didn't allow all day hunting.  I don't agree with the statement, but I've heard or read some statement to that effect, and maybe some people feel that way.  I'm not one of them.


 

[eggshell]

Here again is an example of variable habitat management throughout different regions. That make it confusing when people from across the country all contribute to a specific discussion. Here in the upper midwest with our almost entirely hardwood forest, we do not burn our woods intentionally and fight fires at all cost. Our woods are high dollars veneers and saw lumber that fire greatly damages the value of. occasionally a controlled burn will be used in an old brush filled area (like an old clear cut), but it is not common. We do  not see the rejuvenation from burning. Our forest build layers of leaf mulch and decomposing matter that we want to protect. Our turkeys do not benefit from burning like they do in the south

[Paulmyr]

From my understanding is growing season burns are good for controlling woody plants species. It's also my understanding that in the south when the forest get choked with these species and is ready to burn the hens tend to not use the areas much. The 1st year after a burn is good for polt rearing. The 2nd not so much but they will use it for nesting. After  the 3rd year they tend to stay clear for nesting and polt rearing as the cover is to thick and adds itself to nest predators like snakes the like. So over the long run the benefits outway the short term losses depending on what type of vegetation your trying to control.

[WV Flopper]

 In Virginia did the Biologist come up with the all day hunting? Or did the hunters keep pushing the issue until the commission caved in?

The Biologist can do their jobs, to their limits. When their bosses over rule them that's a different story. To much public "Money" input comes into play.

WV had a cave in a few years back with bringing their season in a week early. It was done just to appease the hunter. They shifted the season a week ahead. I, along with others complained that it took a week away from us in the mountain region. So, they gave us another week, now we have a 5 week season. Used to be four, now 5.

Problem is, to much public influence! The public should not be dictating season lengths, dates or times.

Let the Biologist do the job they are paid to do. The commissioners should take the Biologist referrals and make the seasons to the Biologists recommendations.

I am all about killing turkeys! My voice is biased and should not be used to determine seasons.

Every since I was a kid people have said the season came in a week late. "No, it didn't." We had a growing population then. Now we have a declining or stabile population, but not growing. 30 years ago agencies "Actually" listened to their biologist.....go figure

[nativeks]

Red_Nekkerson brought up a good thought - one that has puzzled me for a long time. Question is simply this: Why do so many states in the south do most of their burning in April and May while turkeys are sitting on the nest? I have wanted an answer to that for years.

I'm not sure why some states burn when they do, but I do know that the general idea is to burn when the moisture content of the fuel is such that the vegetation will burn without the risk of wildfire,...and apparently in some places that window of time when those conditions occur is pretty narrow.  Unfortunately, based on what has happened recently with controlled burns getting out of hand (example: New Mexico in 2022), I suspect there will be much more scrutiny about controlled burning.

Some of it is a matter of resources. Fire folks are not year round on most jurisdictions. They are generally 13/13 employees (only guaranteed 13 pay periods). The home unit may pick up more time from their regular budget. Some of this is changing to keep wildland folks from jumping ship. Then to pull off a burn you have to pull in folks from all over. After Cerro Grande we had to have an insane number of resources even though a farmer could burn the same unit with 2 people. That relaxed about 2010 but I bet it picks back up again.

Some of it is fire effects. A fire in november is far different than a fire in May. A growing season burn hurts alot of undesirable plant species while promoting greater biodiversity.

Here is an article from the SC DNR

April 9, 2015
Growing-season burns a natural ecological process in South Carolina
If you see or smell smoke near one of the S.C. Department of Natural Resources? heritage preserves this spring and summer, it may be coming from a prescribed fire.

Prescribed burns (also called controlled burns) are generally conducted in the dormant season, mostly in late winter and very early spring. But periodic burns in the growing season can improve habitat in ways dormant season burns cannot. Growing-season burns, which are conducted after the new leaves appear in the spring, are much more effective in controlling undesirable hardwoods, and are key in restoring and maintaining the herbaceous vegetation so crucial to brood-rearing for species like bobwhite quail and wild turkey..

The herbaceous native vegetation stimulated by growing-season prescribed burns, especially bunch-grasses and legumes, provides excellent cover and insect foraging areas for turkey poults and quail chicks, and for hens of both species. About 90 percent of the diet of both young turkeys and bobwhite quail during the first few weeks after they hatch consists of insects, which provide vital protein for early development of feathers and muscle.



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[Chordeiles]

Red_nekkerson the only pushback to your statements i will say is that i think you are blaming the wrong portion of the agency. I would be willing to bet that the decisions you listed are pushed more by the people concerned with generating revenue than the bioligists on the ground.

Exactly. Gary Norman was against the all day hunting, and the year he retired, the commission started pushing for it. More $$. They wanted the whole season but settled for the last three weeks after the public comment session. I was against it and made sure to submit my comments.

A lot of good discussion going on in this thread.

Some things I would like to see happen in Va: separate the Turkey tag from the deer tags, manage Turkeys by region, do away with killing hens in the fall and stop letting people shoot bearded hens in the spring.

I encourage everyone in Va to sign up for notifications of future public comment opportunities.

https://dwr.virginia.gov/about/public-comment-opportunities/

[eggshell]

WV Flopper is correct. His scenario happens way too much. The public often lobbies for changes that are not good biology and when the roar get's loud enough agencies give in. A prime example just happened to us here in Ohio. Our bag limit was reduced to one and restrictions put on public land. I watched the numbers and it reduced the kill around 4,000 birds state wide. That seems like a lot but it is only one gobbler for every 4,000 -5,000 acres. That's not going to change much. It will make very little difference to the flock and be numericaly insignificant, but poeple were crying, "do something" and they did. That is what makes public discussions on regulations and biological strategies a slippery slope. Be as informed as possible before lobbying for change, make sure it is a good thing scientifically. I have watched it happen too many times. Especially when we were stocking fish. I can't tell you how many  times I dumped fish in a lake or stream I knew I was wasting the fish, just because some big shot or sportsman's club wanted it. Don't get too mad at wildlife administrators. When the man whose name is on your check calls and says do it or I will find someone who will, you do it. That is why we should not involve politicians in matters of science.

[idratherb]

well said eggshell

[deathfoot]

Red_nekkerson the only pushback to your statements i will say is that i think you are blaming the wrong portion of the agency. I would be willing to bet that the decisions you listed are pushed more by the people concerned with generating revenue than the bioligists on the ground.

Exactly. Gary Norman was against the all day hunting, and the year he retired, the commission started pushing for it. More $$. They wanted the whole season but settled for the last three weeks after the public comment session. I was against it and made sure to submit my comments.

A lot of good discussion going on in this thread.

Some things I would like to see happen in Va: separate the Turkey tag from the deer tags, manage Turkeys by region, do away with killing hens in the fall and stop letting people shoot bearded hens in the spring.

I encourage everyone in Va to sign up for notifications of future public comment opportunities.

https://dwr.virginia.gov/about/public-comment-opportunities/

I really liked Gary Norman. He was a top notch person. I would also like to encourage VA hunters to do the yearly turkey hunter survey. I've been doing it since like 1995, missed a few years tho living in other states.

https://dwr.virginia.gov/wildlife/turkey/turkey-survey/

[RMP]

In Virginia fall turkey kills are mostly incidental to hunting other game.  I've shot more turkeys in the fall hunting deer and small game than I have hunting specifically for turkeys.  In some counties, Virginia implemented a 2 week winter season that, in most of those counties, falls after the close of deer season.  It's a chance to get out and hunt fall/winter birds without having to be clad in orange.  I welcome that season and availed myself of it this winter.  Virginia's justification was that there is a decrease in interest in fall turkey hunting.  I believe that.  I haven't seen anyone out hunting specifically for turkeys in the fall in many years, and I hunt principally public land with decent numbers of turkeys.  I haven't seen anyone with a turkey dog in the woods in decades.  YMMV.  Fall harvests are minuscule compared to spring harvests.  Something like 10% of the spring harvest.  Hen kills are less than half of the total fall harvest.  In 2022-2023, under 800 statewide. 

The fall season is broken up into segments, with some days falling during early muzzle loader deer season, then two days in November, and the some days near the end of the deer season, when many deer hunters have limited or given up.  Hunting for anything has fallen way off by the time this third segment arrives.  Then, in some counties, a 4th segment, 2 weeks in January.  Given the low numbers harvested, I don't see legal hen harvest in the fall as threatening.  I hope the fall season with its segments continues.  Doing it this way seems well thought out.  The numbers harvested simply don't support limiting it further.

As far as the spring season goes, the spring season did go to all day hunting, but only for the second half of the spring season.  The first half still has a 12 noon stop time.   Virginia's spring season already starts well after the majority of mating is over.  Anyone that spends a lot of time in the woods here in Va knows that.  Gobbling starts in February and peaks in March.  It's at its peak now.  And there is 3 weeks to go before the spring season starts.  By the time it starts, most of the hens have been mated and gobbling is far more sporadic.

Virginia has managed its population well, and in IMO, better than many states.  Once you limit, there is no possibility to buy more tags and continue the kills.  I know in states like Tennessee, you could at one time buy tags, then buy left over tags after the first tags were filled.  Virginia never subscribed to that.  Once your tags are filled in Va, you're done.  There are no second chances.

I'm not sure what the yearly turkey mortality in Virginia is.  I know in some states, it's 50% or more per year, from all sources of mortality.  IF the yearly turkey mortality in Virginia is anything close to that, then legal hunting is not the principal cause.   In some states, like West Virginia, studies have shown that illegal mortality accounts for significantly more mortality than legal hunting.  I suspect that's the case in Virginia, too.  Some of the turkey poaching busts that have made the news are mind boggling.  How much goes undetected?

Natural mortality probably accounts for most of the losses.  When people talk about predators, people think coyotes, bobcats, raccoons, and no doubt they kill some turkeys and destroy eggs.  But I think eagles and geese.  Nothing we can do about those.  But the Bald Eagle population in eastern Virginia has exploded.  I saw five in circling over a small tract of public land I hunt last Thursday, and there is limited water there, so they weren't looking for fish.  As far as coyotes, I've seen a fairly dramatic increase in the coyotes signs on the land I hunt, but no evidence in their crap that they are eating turkeys, though its possible.

And there has been a huge increase in the population of resident Canada Geese.  Geese are known carriers of avian flu and it's spread through their droppings.  Virginia biologists have long said that Virginia Turkeys weren't susceptible to avian flu because Canada Geese and turkeys inhabit different niches.  Maybe at night.  But I pass by fields that 10 years ago had turkeys in them, and are now covered in geese.  Nary a turkey to be seen anymore.  The damned geese are everywhere.  They are, by and large, no longer a migratory species and there needs to be an open season on them.

Turkey harvests in Virginia is just a small component of the overall causes of turkey mortality in Virginia.  I think the seasons are fine.  I do wish there were more DWR law enforcement officers.  On any given day, there are only two on duty in the area I hunt, part of hundreds square miles they have to cover.  If there were more there could be a crackdown on illegal hunting which, it appears, is as significantly, or maybe more so, than legal hunting.   There needs to be a open season with liberal limits on resident geese (which I suppose is a federal issue). 

And there isn't much we can do about the weather.  We're a hurricane and nor'easter prone state.

[sippy cup]

I live in Virginia and coyotes do have a small impact on poults and weather conditions do effect hatches but the state does nothing for wildlife no food planting or anything unless it is for their own gain and the nwtf is a joke they don't try at all unless it's big plots of private land and can get their reps rights to hunt here all they do is cut all the timber and support paper mills or burn everything in the spring which kills who knows how many baby turkeys and deer