Virginia DWR’s take on population decline

[RiverBuck]

I live in VA and hawks kill our chickens. Around here I think hawks are the real killers of poults. We had a couple bourbon red turkeys and coyotes ate them but my take was it was more of a hunting accident in that they just happened to be traveling through and took advantage of an easy meal.. but my wife saw the coyote get the turkey. Couple days later the other one was gone with similar looking crime scene left behind. I kill a lot of coyotes and if I play a fawn distress sound when the fawns drop its deadly. On the other hand, I've never called in a coyote when turkey hunting. Not saying they don't but the weather thing makes sense too. Wet, cold, and can't fly is a bad recipe.

[eggshell]

Taking a deep deep breath and deciding if i want to commit internet suicide....

Oh h*ll why not. As some of you know I worked for Ohio's Dept. of Natural Resources for 31 years and 30 of those service years were with the Division of Wildlife. My experience with analyzing and determining wildlife and fisheries dynamics and populations is that causative effects are seldom sudden and usually deeply hidden. Answers seldom come quickly as most good research takes years of data collection. Most biologist have seen the problem coming and are working on it before sportsmen are even aware. Most are monitoring populations constantly. Many times steps are taken that most sportsmen never realized or just took in stride. In cases were problems became extreme and serious public reaction typically was very critical of the agencies. I am here to tell you, those in the agencies are hunters and anglers too and despite beliefs they care very deeply about the resource. You can't even begin to realize how many times in my career I was cussed out called derogative names and generally shamed. All from people who had no clue what I actually done to support their hobbies. Sportsmen and women are keenly aware of the state of our resources and I have to say if called on they will show up as an army and support wildlife agencies. But, in terms of solutions and scientific facts, they are most likely to be wrong. Poster's on old gobbler included. Let the scientist do the science and not speculate. I am not saying we are all wrong on every point, but to insist one particular thing is the great evil is not a solution. Again, let the biologist do their job. Opinions are great, but they need to be supported with facts. I will stop and admit, sometimes agencies drop the ball and I make no excuses for that. So I plead with everyone to be patient and let the agencies do their job. Talk to your agencies and be polite and open minded, you'll learn from them. Should we sound the alarm bells, yes.

Before you pound me with turkey questions I will confess I was in fisheries, but I do have a degree in wildlife management ( but I have not slept in a Holiday Inn ). I will give you a quick case study. We had a lake where we stocked fish for a trophy fishery and it started going down hill just like Turkeys are. We launched a population survey and started monitoring the parameters. We tried some solutions as well. About three years into this the local angler group came forward and wanted to know what the H*ll was we doing. we had been on it for three years at this point. They wanted more fish stocked and size limits and more. At one point we had a public forum and we almost needed a police escort to go home. we decided, no more of that crap. The solution was finally determined that poor water quality was the cause. Overloading of nutrients from household septic systems was souring the lake. Well, that's not and easy fix, but finally a central sewage system was put in (that pissed all  the landowners off). Within three years the weed beds were back and fish populations were recovering and robust. Business picked up around the lake and property values increased and the lake became a destination lake for fishing. Some of the biggest bass tournaments for the area are there. This all took 10 years, and we were all called dirty stupid SOB government workers more times than I can remember. So, this is like an old hardheaded gobbler, be patient and let it work out. Throwing all kind of localized opinions at the wall will not fix it. I am sure that many of those opinions and factors are indeed on point,  but let the biologist test the hypothesis before we bring judgement.

[HillclimberWV]

Well said eggshell. I have several friends that work for the DNR in different capacites across the state of WV and PA and they are all avid hunters and or fishers and care deeply about the wildlife.

[InmemoryofLMC]

Thanks for posting

[WV Flopper]

 Funny how many times I have said "Let the Biologist do their job".

[Hook hanger]

I think there are numerous causes for declines and different  area's don't all have the same problems. But I do know when the state game agency is not being  totally honest to the public because they don't want to make some organizations mad is bs. I know some of the people doing the studies and they are being told by higher ups that they cannot disclose their findings to the public.  Some of these state agencies need to let the biologists be able to tell the whole truth not half-truths.

[huntineveryday]

I don't know how much fur is harvested in Virginia, but the collapse of the fur market has to be contributing to turkey decline in Nebraska some. But not from coyotes. Prices for raccoons dropped, then NAFA went bankrupt in 2019 and they really fell off. One of our state biologists commented on a forum that the last 2 years coon harvest has been around 50,000. When coons were worth $10 it was 150,00-200,000. Put a couple years in a row with 100,000 less coons getting killed by hunters and nest raiders are exceptionally higher in number. Those timelines, mixed with drought conditions the last 2 nesting seasons, seem to be pulling a 1-2 punch on nesting success and clutch survival for not only turkeys, but upland birds as well. But it's more than even those two factors.

Weather patterns, fur market, crp contract rates, irrigation restrictions, crop prices, feed prices...those are all factors that can negatively affect our turkey nest success and clutch survival. When multiple sources contribute negatively for a couple seasons in a row, it seems like we get conditions we are currently seeing here.

[RMP]

Where I hunt in eastern Virginia, over the last two years, I've seen a significant increase in coyote sign, such that I decided to try coyote hunting for the first time in my life last September.  I've seen more tracks and fur-infused scat than I have ever seen in the past.  I've also seen more turkeys than I've ever seen.  Where I hunt, I feel like turkey numbers have increased rather dramatically in the last two years. 

I have this weird habit of poking coyote poop with a stick to see that they've been eating.  I've yet to see anything resembling a feather.  It's always rodent hair and little bones. 

[Crghss]

Always heard the old timers say cold wet springs are bad for turkeys. Read a few old gobbler threads say the same. Hawks, predators then add weather and it adds up.

For turkey never thought hunting made much difference.

Game commissions are not the enemy. But people will believe what they want.

[dzsmith]

There's a lot of truth to that. A wet poult is a dead poult... i would think if you have tons of wet weather during the wrong time for back to back years... it would affect the population . But... we can't control weather , or do anything about it really. Life is a miracle on an all levels. Coyotes have never been the biggest threat to turkeys if ever a threat... that doesn't mean you won't see one killing/ eating a turkey . But Lovett Williams talked about alarm putting on one of his recordings he did .... And the fact that a turkey will putt at you to let you know you're busted . The closer you get the faster the putting until eventually the turkey will simply leave . Many predators will leave when the gig is up .... Because they know it's over.... Not saying that's always the case , but it's how turkeys operate in their environment with predators . Animals aren't in the business in wasting time and energy if it isn't necessary .

[eggshell]

dzsmith, My very best turkey spot has a big coyote population too. I have sat and watched the coyote and turkey interations many days. The turkeys usually spot the coyote a long ways off and start putting and the coyote just moves on. When they do try to sneak in on them I have never seen them very close before the turkeys just fly up on a limb. I've watched this happen dozens of times

[Kyle_Ott]

I've hunted Virginia extensively since '96.  Over the years I've spent a lot of time in northern Virginia, the Northern Neck and I've hunted the central part of the state, as well.

I've also hunted turkeys in 43 states so I have first hand experience with states that take a liberal regulatory approach and those who are extremely conservative.

There are very few states demonstrating immunity to population decline but there are plenty of states who resisted preventative action when it first set in.  Virginia is still operating within the same regulations it was 5-10 years ago and in fact they have liberalized hunting opportunities drastically within the last 5 years to include expanding afternoon hunting opportunities, opening Sunday hunting on public this year, etc.  All of that is in conjunction with a 5 week long season.

Our springs are changing.  We have received frequent and voluminous rain storms throughout May and June the last several years.  The years where we were drier were years with exceptional poult production.  Torrential rain washes out nests in low/floodplain areas.  It soaks poults once they've made it out of the egg.  It also soaks hens who are sitting on nests, which in my opinion makes it easier for predators to smell them sitting on the nest when passing back or track them to the nest based on the high concentration of scent (ever smelled a wet chicken or shot a wet turkey? they stink).

The idea that predator populations aren't expanding is moronic.  As a kid, a lot of folks ran coon dogs.  I knew folks who regularly trapped.  No one runs coon dogs anymore.  Very few people trap.  If you're not actively managing predators, their populations are expanding and I'd be willing to wager fur harvest from Virginia is less than 80% of what it was 15 years ago.

Certain parts of our state currently have stable populations while others have exhibited rapid decline.  There are only a handful of areas where populations have been increasing. 

I personally believe we need to be more mindful of the fragility of this resource.  I think our season is too long, our bag limit is too high and that the non-resident bag limit should be ONE turkey.

[richard black]

Very nice post eggshell and greatly appreciated. Thank you for your input and experience.

[Haymarket]

I've hunted Virginia extensively since '96.  Over the years I've spent a lot of time in northern Virginia, the Northern Neck and I've hunted the central part of the state, as well.

I've also hunted turkeys in 43 states so I have first hand experience with states that take a liberal regulatory approach and those who are extremely conservative.

There are very few states demonstrating immunity to population decline but there are plenty of states who resisted preventative action when it first set in.  Virginia is still operating within the same regulations it was 5-10 years ago and in fact they have liberalized hunting opportunities drastically within the last 5 years to include expanding afternoon hunting opportunities, opening Sunday hunting on public this year, etc.  All of that is in conjunction with a 5 week long season.

Our springs are changing.  We have received frequent and voluminous rain storms throughout May and June the last several years.  The years where we were drier were years were poult production was exceptional.  Torrential rain washes out nests in low/floodplain areas.  It soaks poults once they've made it out of the egg.  It also soaks hens who are sitting on nests, which in my opinion makes it easier for predators to smell them sitting on the nest when passing back or track them to the nest based on the high concentration of scent (ever smelled a wet chicken or shot a wet turkey? they stink).

The idea that predator populations aren't expanding is moronic.  As a kid, a lot of folks ran coon dogs.  I knew folks who regularly trapped.  No one runs coon dogs anymore.  Very few people trap.  If you're not actively managing predators, their populations are expanding and I'd be willing to wager fur harvest from Virginia is less than 80% of what it was 15 years ago.

Certain parts of our state currently have stable populations while others have exhibited rapid decline.  There are only a handful of areas where populations have been increasing. 

I personally believe we need to be more mindful of the fragility of this resource.  I think our season is too long, our bag limit is too high and that the non-resident bag limit should be ONE turkey.

Well said. I wish they would do away with the fall season completely. We don't need hens being harvested.

[deathfoot]

I've hunted Virginia extensively since '96.  Over the years I've spent a lot of time in northern Virginia, the Northern Neck and I've hunted the central part of the state, as well.

I've also hunted turkeys in 43 states so I have first hand experience with states that take a liberal regulatory approach and those who are extremely conservative.

There are very few states demonstrating immunity to population decline but there are plenty of states who resisted preventative action when it first set in.  Virginia is still operating within the same regulations it was 5-10 years ago and in fact they have liberalized hunting opportunities drastically within the last 5 years to include expanding afternoon hunting opportunities, opening Sunday hunting on public this year, etc.  All of that is in conjunction with a 5 week long season.

Our springs are changing.  We have received frequent and voluminous rain storms throughout May and June the last several years.  The years where we were drier were years were poult production was exceptional.  Torrential rain washes out nests in low/floodplain areas.  It soaks poults once they've made it out of the egg.  It also soaks hens who are sitting on nests, which in my opinion makes it easier for predators to smell them sitting on the nest when passing back or track them to the nest based on the high concentration of scent (ever smelled a wet chicken or shot a wet turkey? they stink).

The idea that predator populations aren't expanding is moronic.  As a kid, a lot of folks ran coon dogs.  I knew folks who regularly trapped.  No one runs coon dogs anymore.  Very few people trap.  If you're not actively managing predators, their populations are expanding and I'd be willing to wager fur harvest from Virginia is less than 80% of what it was 15 years ago.

Certain parts of our state currently have stable populations while others have exhibited rapid decline.  There are only a handful of areas where populations have been increasing. 

I personally believe we need to be more mindful of the fragility of this resource.  I think our season is too long, our bag limit is too high and that the non-resident bag limit should be ONE turkey.

Well said. I wish they would do away with the fall season completely. We don't need hens being harvested.

I actually applaud the state for allowing hunting public on Sundays. I never understood why they didn't allow it when sunday hunting became legal (I know why because of conservative beliefs and the politicians went for it) but it made zero sense. If you can hunt on Sunday it should be open for everyone.

The afternoon hunting I didn't agree with. My argument has always been allow hunting until 2 pm the entire season and not all day at any point. But when do they listen to a commoner.

As for the fall...I truly wish they would do away with the season when there is a rifle season open. Since rifles are legal to kill a turkey here in VA theres too many open opportunities for deer hunters to pop one. I've also been vocal to the DWR about banning rifles for turkey here in VA. I love the 2 week winter season tho. however, they ruined that just this year by extending our anterless season for months. I've heard many gobblers in January and it's just as fun.

Like you said, there are portions of Virginia where the Turkey population is doing great and other parts of the state where it isn't. Luckily, I hunt the portion where the population seems to be stable if not increasing a tad. But I do think the DWR needs to be monitoring carefully and making changes if needed. I've already been on here talking about separate tags, etc. But making changes for the fall would help along with a few other tweaks.

This has been a good discussion on this thread. A lot of knowledgeable folks have dealt out some very valid points and great facts. I don't have data, just opinions. And I know all of us on here have a deep love for the turkey and we want the to thrive!!