Virginia DWR’s take on population decline

[krm944]

I don't know how much fur is harvested in Virginia, but the collapse of the fur market has to be contributing to turkey decline in Nebraska some. But not from coyotes. Prices for raccoons dropped, then NAFA went bankrupt in 2019 and they really fell off. One of our state biologists commented on a forum that the last 2 years coon harvest has been around 50,000. When coons were worth $10 it was 150,00-200,000. Put a couple years in a row with 100,000 less coons getting killed by hunters and nest raiders are exceptionally higher in number. Those timelines, mixed with drought conditions the last 2 nesting seasons, seem to be pulling a 1-2 punch on nesting success and clutch survival for not only turkeys, but upland birds as well. But it's more than even those two factors.

Weather patterns, fur market, crp contract rates, irrigation restrictions, crop prices, feed prices...those are all factors that can negatively affect our turkey nest success and clutch survival. When multiple sources contribute negatively for a couple seasons in a row, it seems like we get conditions we are currently seeing here.

I'm a VA Hunter and came here to mention this! Our property once had guys running coon hounds after deer season. The property hasnt had coon hounds on it in 8+ years. Most outings you encounter coons on a morning/evening sit. Every trail camera has coons on it. Undoubtedly our coon population is continuously growing.

I don't think coons are the only factor to Turkey decline. On our property, I do think coon/predators are a measurable factor.

[dzsmith]

dzsmith, My very best turkey spot has a big coyote population too. I have sat and watched the coyote and turkey interations many days. The turkeys usually spot the coyote a long ways off and start putting and the coyote just moves on. When they do try to sneak in on them I have never seen them very close before the turkeys just fly up on a limb. I've watched this happen dozens of times

I agree 100%. The places I hunt with the higher predator populations coincidentally have the better turkey populations . With the exception of pigs . Personally the habitat isn't per se better but there's larger unbroken amounts of it. And I love trapping ... but I haven't personally seen a revival of turkeys anywhere on a property that was trapped hard for years and years vs ones that aren't.

[mcw3734]

Eggshell - Thank you for your post! Both for its focus on patience and data driven analysis, and for highlighting agency employees. I've worked for the BLM & Forest Service out west for 20+ years now and I've experienced similar to what you've described. It's funny how some view us as 'others' when really almost all of us are hunting and fishing enthusiasts. I mean, why else would we have spent all that money at college and chosen a career that there is zero possibility we're going to walk away from rich?

I started a thread in January asking folks who work for Fish and Game agencies to identify themselves. I was disappointed by the lack of response and I suspected there was some reluctance to speak up. You implied in your post that you were apprehensive to talk because of possible blowback. To me, that is such a bummer because you provided great insight to help us understand how difficult and dynamic professional wildlife management can be. I have to image there are others that can make similar contributions. Would love for those folks to speak up...

[eggshell]

Post removed because I was getting off topic .... sorry

[rifleman]

Eggshell,  I have no problem with your input and would never choose teaching as a profession either.  But my wife taught for 30 years and most of that was with a Masters plus 45 and top salary of $45k.  Believe me that she spent more time than 9 months on school with homework, school meeting, parent and teacher deals, chaparone.  Lot of our money went into supplies for the classroom.  County school heirachy and fellow teachers brainwash them into believing they must do these things.  Most teachers are under appreciated.  State jobs do not pay well unless you are in a  management position and some of those don't get paid much either. 

[eggshell]

Rifleman, I did not mean any disrespect. teachers have a very large role in our society and they have my respect. It was meant solely as a comparison. we are about to derail this thread so I am deleting my comments so it can stay on topic. I spoke too hastely, I appologize.

[rifleman]

Eggshell,  I have no problem with what you said.  I just wanted to point out how little money they make for the hours they are working other than the classroom.  Also, to show that they spend too much money to keep their classroom functional.  I remember every year buying simple stuff like staples, construction paper, even chalk.  My wife loved teaching but she could have made far more with other employees who could use her teaching skills.  No harm.

[RaspyD]

There are many factors that have lead to the decline of turkey populations and it didn't happen overnight.  It's easier now than ever to kill a turkey with the realistic decoys, blinds and dedicated turkey guns and ammo. Another factor that I feel contributes is the call-in check system or checking in on the app, which leads to inaccuracies in the total harvest from year to year...and some guys just don't know how to count . Had a fella tell me one time that he didn't feel like he had to stop at 3 birds.

[Paulmyr]

Extreme heat can be as big if not  more of a threat to polts than cold wet. They cannot regulate their body temps and during extreme heat they overheat and cook themselves.

[deathfoot]

There are many factors that have lead to the decline of turkey populations and it didn't happen overnight.  It's easier now than ever to kill a turkey with the realistic decoys, blinds and dedicated turkey guns and ammo. Another factor that I feel contributes is the call-in check system or checking in on the app, which leads to inaccuracies in the total harvest from year to year...and some guys just don't know how to count . Had a fella tell me one time that he didn't feel like he had to stop at 3 birds.

No doubt. However, back in the day of check stations..plenty of people just drove on home and never checked anything. There will always be those folks. But each state needs some system and internet is what it is now. The bigger issue is the "earn a buck" system. People kill their buck, then simply check in a doe online (without killing it) just to earn their next buck. Not sure the solution there because we are too far gone to going back to just check stations.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of ways around all of it. It requires honesty. But I still think some system is better than none. Surely the game department of each state is smart enough to figure in an X factor of birds that didn't get checked in and they can go from there. Again, I'm banking on people having common sense. So there's that. I just wish more people had ethics too.

[eggshell]

All the comments seem to have some merit and as several have stated, it didn't happen overnight and not one single factor caused it. The cold hard truth is this will be an extremely hard fix if not impossible. Chances are very good that we will never see the big numbers again, no matter what attempts Wildlife agencies try. Look at what  has happened with other species that fell into decline. Some disappeared and some remain but at much lower levels. Maybe all We can hope for is to save the Wild Turkey at current levels or slightly higher. If it's habitat, we can't make more without the private landowners drastically changing land use (a very hard sale), if it's disease the cat is out of the bag and we have no control, if it's over harvest from hunting and predation then we can fix it (the simplest of all causes) and if it's it weather we are again screwed. In all these scenarios only one gives the state agencies an absolute fix and it most likely is not the problem. So pull up your panties and pray for the best, because at this point I think praying is as good a strategy as anything. You have probably heard that willdlife species are biological and environmental alarms. we are certainly doing better, but so much harm has been done that it's impossible to undo a lot of it. I am not saying we don't try, just be aware this is about keeping the patient alive. Restoring him/her back to their ooriginal young vigor is not likely happening

[Spurs]

There are many factors that have lead to the decline of turkey populations and it didn't happen overnight.  It's easier now than ever to kill a turkey with the realistic decoys, blinds and dedicated turkey guns and ammo. Another factor that I feel contributes is the call-in check system or checking in on the app, which leads to inaccuracies in the total harvest from year to year...and some guys just don't know how to count . Had a fella tell me one time that he didn't feel like he had to stop at 3 birds.

No doubt. However, back in the day of check stations..plenty of people just drove on home and never checked anything. There will always be those folks. But each state needs some system and internet is what it is now. The bigger issue is the "earn a buck" system. People kill their buck, then simply check in a doe online (without killing it) just to earn their next buck. Not sure the solution there because we are too far gone to going back to just check stations.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of ways around all of it. It requires honesty. But I still think some system is better than none. Surely the game department of each state is smart enough to figure in an X factor of birds that didn't get checked in and they can go from there. Again, I'm banking on people having common sense. So there's that. I just wish more people had ethics too.

Kinda on and kinda off topic:

I'm from Arkansas and there is one glaring thing that I think has contributed heavily to the decline in the SE that is NOT discussed....probably because of the $$$ behind the problem.

Timber companies have become much more thorough than they once were thanks to tracked hot saws.  Used to, they could not get skidders into the lowlands nearly as easy, drainage's were skipped and there was more time between harvests. 

Now I'm not the biggest fan of continued over legislation on private companies on their own property, but I think a HUGE benefit to wildlife would be a mandatory Stream Management Zone for landowners who own large tracts of land.  This would create edges that would benefit ALL WILDLIFE. 

Problem is that timber companies pretty much run this state (and several states throughout the SE).  To me, they are the elephant in the room when it comes to habitat.  The Arkansas Game and Fish are quick to say "we only control 10% of huntable property in the state", but they avoid the tough conversation when it comes to corporate ownership.

[Ihuntoldschool]

Timber Harvest is and has been the biggest factor in decline.

With that being said , article is pretty much spot on . Not like you're going to slow down the timber harvest. Too much money.
Good analogy with the coyote, bout like dog chasing squirrel in backyard.

Coyotes pretty successful on killing nest raiders so I guess keep killing them and save those raccoons
, opossums.

[Red_Nekkerson]

I've spent years reading this forum, but never posting, but this topic I felt I had to chime in.  I read the same article and some I agree with and some I don't.  Someone mentioned about letting the biologists do their jobs.  I agree, if they would do their jobs.  And before those on the side of the biologists rise up to stone me to death, allow me to explain.  When I first started hunting turkeys in the spring, we had a 4 week season, 2 bird limit, and we had to be out of the woods at 11am.  Biologists told us, and I remember, because I was present at an event where he said it, that we had be out of the woods at 11 so hens can nest unimpeded.  OK, fast forward about 7-8 years, the biologists told us that we could hunt until noon. then, they added a week to our season and added an additional bird to the bag limit.  Then, low and behold, they decided that we can hunt all day the last 2 weeks of the season, and then this past year decided that we can hunt all day for the last 3 weeks of the season, nesting hens be damned.  The same biologists that told us that we needed to be out of the woods before noon are now the same ones that say we can hunt all day for 60% of the season or are the same agency that the biologists work for at least.  So, someone was either wrong then, or they're wrong now.  I just don't have a lot of faith in the agency.  Another phenomenon that I've noticed, is the same agency that said, 20 years prior, that we needed to be out of the woods by noon to allow hens to nest, exhibit a shocking willingness to set fire to the woods in April and May.  I don't know why they don't do this in January or February, but I suspect it's because the agency might have to furnish coats to the people conducting this business.  Since the "progression" or evolution of our seasons (spring and fall) have changed quite a bit in the last 30 years or so, and with all the advancements in study and research and data collection and access to information, to lay the decline in turkey populations at feet of mother nature, ie wet springs, to me is unpalatable.  Dye could have saved himself some typing if he would have just said "if you want turkey populations to return, then buy an EV and turn in your gas stove ASAP".

The coyote analogy, I'd agree with.  People that blame coyotes for turkey decline are probably the same people that blame muskies for eating all the bass out of the river, but disregard the fact that guides float up and down the river almost daily with paying clients in tow.  I don't know anyone that hunts coons anymore, and I don't know, but it seems like I see a heck of lot more skunks these days than I used to, and there are a heck of a lot more bears than there used to be.  I can't see a bear catching many turkeys, but I'd imagine that they could make quick work of a clutch of eggs.

I would, personally, like to see Va DWR take a more fluid approach to the seasons.  If the trends start downward, back off a tag, back off a week, back off on all-day hunting.  All-day hunting, I find is pretty close to cruel and unusual punishment anyway.  The only benefit I see to it is that it gives the roost shooters twice the opportunity that they'd normally have.

The timber harvest business, I'm willing to admit, might hold some validity.  A place that I hunt regularly, a tract of about 2000 acres, had a shade less than half of it timbered 3 years ago.  I, naively, thought that cutting the timber would concentrate more turkeys on the area that was not cut.  How wrong I was.  Not only did the turkeys disappear from the area that was cut, they disappeared from the areas surrounding as well, not completely but pretty close.  We (my friends, friends kids, my kid, myself) used to get about 8-12 gobblers a year off the place.  Last year, there was not a single gobbler taken off the property by us.  Matter of fact, I didn't even hear one last year, what time I spent there.

[RaspyD]

I would, personally, like to see Va DWR take a more fluid approach to the seasons.  If the trends start downward, back off a tag, back off a week, back off on all-day hunting.  All-day hunting, I find is pretty close to cruel and unusual punishment anyway.  The only benefit I see to it is that it gives the roost shooters twice the opportunity that they'd normally have.

Red, you brought up a lot of good points in your post and I agree 100% with your statement above.  I do believe that the lengthening of the season and the addition of all day hunting was done to increase hunting opportunities for hunters, just as having deer season start on a Saturday and the extended seasons that have come along with that.  Somehow we need to come up with a plan to not only sustain our turkey populations but sustain the tradition of hunting by providing opportunities for folks to hunt.  Both are needed to keep the tradition of hunting going.