The Solution

[owlhoot]

Or better yet, allow non-resident hunters but mandate the hiring of a local guide or outfitter.

I don't think much of this either for reason stated in my last post.  NO WAY IN HELL am I gonna pay a guide to hunt land I know better than they do.  Absolute nonsense.

Sounds like YOU can be the guide

[Meleagris gallopavo]

  if the number of hunters and season dates were the problem , many state parks that do not allow hunting would be over run w/ turkeys......low brood sizes , live poult counts and barren hens are a concern that could have many reasons....however not much discussion on here about large populations in an area that suddenly disappear....if an outbreak of a disease can wipe out the majority of a large flock, which many here have observed , it can also do harm on a smaller scale

Good point.  The small scale wipeouts are hard to study and document.  This is anecdotal, but there was a huge flock I used to hunt and we'd kill like one mature gobbler from that property a year and not go back.  We always went there early in the season and killed lone gobblers that were not with the main flock, which makes me believe they were subordinate gobblers.  My son and I would hunt deer there and count 30-40 birds at the time.  I scouted there in 2020 and never saw a bird!  Another hunter who is a friend of mine hunted adjacent property and he didn't see any either.  Very odd and disappointing.  I went this year some before the season started and saw one hen the four times I went over there.  It's like they vanished from a large block of woods.  Maybe it was disease, but honestly I don't know.


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[saltysenior]

I'm 83 and have seen 4 large population disappear in my lifetime....the first occurred at Fisheating creek in Fl. ... nothing was ever said , but the word was David Austin was studying for Blackhead....that fall I stopped in the brand new NWTF building in Edgefield to find out more....seems like it was a no no to discuss this occurrence.....I threw my torn up membership card on ??his name's deck and walked out........to this day large,fast disappearances of flocks seems to be avoided in discussions 

[Howie g]

If "all " turkey hunters would just do a little to help , instead of just " taking " and not giving anything back to the resource. Do some trapping in your area , if you have private ground ? Do some habitat improvement, plant things turkey need , making nesting areas , don't bush hog during brooding season etc .
Turn in or atleast tell your buddy who kills over his limit how weak he is and what he is taking away from the future .   Bottom line ... do your part , or just complain until there's no population to complain about ! 

[Cowboy]

     My mountainous area (1300 acres) in WV which is private ground has fewer turkeys now.  The habitat has not changed all that much from the exploded population we had in the period 1970-1990s.  What has really changed is the predator population.  During the above time frame coon hunters kept coons and possums at an all-time low and coyotes were not here. Food and habitat are still here and logically what does that leave??

Exactly! Predators

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[owlhoot]

     My mountainous area (1300 acres) in WV which is private ground has fewer turkeys now.  The habitat has not changed all that much from the exploded population we had in the period 1970-1990s.  What has really changed is the predator population.  During the above time frame coon hunters kept coons and possums at an all-time low and coyotes were not here. Food and habitat are still here and logically what does that leave??

Exactly! Predators

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Too bad nothing will be done about it. Game departments will not support it. No bounties , extending predator's seasons . They even talk it down as a solution.
So unless fur becomes the next big camouflages or fashion statement good luck.

[Paulmyr]

So with all this predator talk am I to believe that states or areas that have good turkey populations haven't had an increase in predators since the drop in trapping participation?

[owlhoot]

So with all this predator talk am I to believe that states or areas that have good turkey populations haven't had an increase in predators since the drop in trapping participation?

Doubtfull.  Which states have  increasing turkey populations ?

[lunghit]

So with all this predator talk am I to believe that states or areas that have good turkey populations haven't had an increase in predators since the drop in trapping participation?

Doubtfull.  Which states have  increasing turkey populations ?

Not states as a whole but some areas have increasing populations. My area the turkey numbers are growing rapidly and we do not have a single coyote here.

[Meleagris gallopavo]

South Carolina has had a coyote bounty since 2016.  The link provided indicates it has had an impact on the coyote population.  Would be good to see turkey population data correlated to coyote population data.

https://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/coyote/coyoteincentive.html


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[ChesterCopperpot]

South Carolina has had a coyote bounty since 2016.  The link provided indicates it has had an impact on the coyote population.  Would be good to see turkey population data correlated to coyote population data.

https://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/coyote/coyoteincentive.html


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According to everything I've ever seen come out of South Carolina's DNR, they're experiencing similar turkey declines as most other states in the southeast. Surprisingly they do more habitat work than most other states that I've seen, and are still seeing those declines. So, no, I don't think their coyote initiatives are accomplishing anything with regard to game populations. As far as the takeaway that the coyote population is down 25% and that that's largely attributed to hunter/trapper, I'd like to see the rest of the research rather than just a blanket statement made with nothing backing it up. The areas I hunt in South Carolina I see more coyotes now than I ever have. Assuming that number is even right, it could even be possible that a 25% decline over a couple decades could be a population stabilizing into a landscape's holding capacity. I personally don't think their bounty program, or similar programs in other states, have done anything. We've tried to kill out, trap out, drive out coyotes in this country for more than a century and accomplished nothing but spreading them farther into new ground. Read Dan Flores' Coyote America which talks about this, and what could be done (largely nothing). One thing he does suggest is timed hunts wherein you'd go in and try to kill off large numbers of coyotes just before nesting and fawn drop. I think you'd see a greater potential impact there than what's currently taking place with the majority killed during deer seasons. In SC specifically they would also benefit from opening coyote regs on WMAs during that time to allow hunters to do this. As it currently stands you can hunt them yearround on private, but on WMAs they can only be hunted with a caliber for whatever is in season (i.e. can't hunt them when no game animals are in season, and can't hunt them with anything but squirrel equipment from Jan. 2 through the end of February).


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[eggshell]

science has historically shown that predator control is not a solution to game numbers. However, most of those studies were done many years ago while the fur market was very good. I think for the most part the findings still apply, but with exceptions. Huge explosions of predators that grossly increase population densities can impact game species for a period of time. The prime example is raccoons and nesting birds. With that said, even raccoon populations will correct themselves with disease, like distemper. The problem lies in the mean population level still remains higher than historic values. Couple this with multiple other detrimental factors and you have an impact that wouldn't be necessarily true in a "normal" population dynamic. So, I doubt predator control on it's own will fix much.

That is what makes this such a complicated problem for wildlife managers. It's likened to triage in a trauma center, you address the most life threatening scenarios first and foremost and then sew up the cuts and scrapes later.  Diagnosing the problem is time consuming and complicated, we can easily see symptoms but causative agents are deeply hidden and not openly apparent. To further complicate the issue, wildlife managers often are not given the authority or tools to fix what they find. The consuming business world has a target on Natural resources primarily focused on financial gain and less on environmental impact. Yes, we can slow the bleeding and save the patient, but he may never be the same. Some wounds are lifelong and disabling.

I for one, think we can only save the patient and the dream of making him whole again is far reached if not impossible. It's almost like youthfulness, we can only experience it for a period of life. The boom we all saw after reintroduction was not a true sustainable scenario. The vibrant youth of those days of high turkey densities have faded away with time. Now our mission is to maintain the health of what we have with sound habitat management, managed harvest and disease control (as much as possible). Time to see a new reality and do the hard work to maintain a population at a level as high as possible.

Wildlife managers do not get the needed support from political over-lords, as hunters and fishers just don't carry the voting clout. So we will continue to suck hind teat until we are recognized as a valued social dynamic. So we can discuss and debate the science, but we best not forget the social/political arenas. Making this a turkey or deer only issue will not buy us much. Making it a resource and environmental issue might.

[GobbleGitr]

The problem is not a binary one...hunter vs environment.  A lot of money has went into habitat where there are few/no turkeys, and a lot of game regulations aren't alone making the difference.  However the question asked sparks good debate and needed discussions.  I would advocate that we challenge the NWTF and support TFT as organizations to partner with state game agencies to learn how multiple variables are together causing turkey declines in much of the US.  LPDV, predators (including wild hogs in the SE), buffalo gnats, hunting technology, weather, season timing, habitat, etc, etc...all are presenting a challenge to turkeys that we must understand and overcome as much as possible. 

[eggshell]

I would advocate that we challenge the NWTF and support TFT as organizations to partner with state game agencies to learn how multiple variables are together causing turkey declines in much of the US.

I believe  this is happening and has for decades. Wildlife agencies are and have been engaged with sportsmen's associations for decades. I know this first hand, as a retired Wildlife Agency employee. State agencies are not as asleep at the wheel as we often believe, but at times they do not address a problem as well as we wish they would. Sometimes this is a leadership problem and sometimes it's out of their control. Many agencies are struggling with funding. I know in Ohio the staffing level is considerably lower than it has been. So some things get put aside. Sadly in many states turkeys are not big revenue or activity producers....deer and fishing are going to get attention and funding first. Squeaky wheels get greased.   

[Hoot 000]

I would advocate that we challenge the NWTF and support TFT as organizations to partner with state game agencies to learn how multiple variables are together causing turkey declines in much of the US.

I believe  this is happening and has for decades. Wildlife agencies are and have been engaged with sportsmen's associations for decades. I know this first hand, as a retired Wildlife Agency employee. State agencies are not as asleep at the wheel as we often believe, but at times they do not address a problem as well as we wish they would. Sometimes this is a leadership problem and sometimes it's out of their control. Many agencies are struggling with funding. I know in Ohio the staffing level is considerably lower than it has been. So some things get put aside. Sadly in many states turkeys are not big revenue or activity producers....deer and fishing are going to get attention and funding first. Squeaky wheels get greased.   

I agree turkeys are not as important in my state of Ms. we have lost habitat , need predator control ,we have had disease such as avian pox. Some areas are in better shape than others. It takes money to address these problems and a desire to improve   a situation .