Jakes not breeding ?

[owlhoot]

So the question.
What is this about Jakes not breeding? Not being capable ?
I have personally seen a lot of hens running across fields to a Jake strutting and gobbling, apparently they don't know the Jakes ain't doing them any good for egg laying.
He was the only one gobbling in the area. And I know there was just a day before lots of mature gobblers in the area. Big boys must have been occupied or taking a break, lol.
I was thinking I had read the statement about jakes not capable from some well known turkey biologist ?
Any opinions?
Thanks.

[Paulmyr]

It's not that they won't try or aren't capable it's that thier sperm isn't viable yet for reproduction.

[Sir-diealot]

It's not that they won't try or aren't capable it's that thier sperm isn't viable yet for reproduction.

I was just having the discussion on another site about Mike Chamberlains interview on Meateater Podcast and everybody said I was nuts about them not going down to the next tom and that the order had to be established again and everybody brought up that they saw jakes breeding hens but I did not know that it was that they were no viable as well, just that the pecking order had to be reestablished.

[owlhoot]

It's not that they won't try or aren't capable it's that thier sperm isn't viable yet for reproduction.

Oh okay.
So the hens don't know that, or just going in for the fun of it 

[owlhoot]

It's not that they won't try or aren't capable it's that thier sperm isn't viable yet for reproduction.

I was just having the discussion on another site about Mike Chamberlains interview on Meateater Podcast and everybody said I was nuts about them not going down to the next tom and that the order had to be established again and everybody brought up that they saw jakes breeding hens but I did not know that it was that they were no viable as well, just that the pecking order had to be reestablished.

Think I had read that. Puzzled me that a short 1/2-1mile away different toms were on the hens and had been on the hens. Thought maybe pecking order may have been in just a family group, but IDK?

[Shiloh]

I have two chicks in a box in my garage that were fathered by a Jake.  That's for certain. 

[Spitten and drummen]

I find it amusing that some believe jakes wont or cant breed hens and about sperm not being viable. Hogwash. Thats the same as someone saying a young spike buck cant breed or be fertal. Utter nonsense. I say this because I have witnessed several times jakes breeding hens and poults being the result. Some with a spike and a doe.

[Paulmyr]

Of course it's possible but in general I think studies have shown most jakes aren't capable of producing viable sperm during the breeding season. Studies have also shown that subordinate toms don't produce the levels of testosterone needed to produce viable sperm. It's not that they won't try its Just the sperm isn't viable.

Another note. Hen wild turkeys breed with more than one tom and store the sperm until it's time to fertilize. The thinking behind this is when she releases the sperm the strongest sperm fertilizes her eggs ensuring the future of of the species. Her original breeding is done not by happenstance. She chooses carefully it's not a rushed decision. After her original mating she goes off to find other toms or possibly jakes to breed with. I would imagine with time constraints in the breeding cycle she's not as picky with her secondary suitors.

@ Shiloh. Unless you've had the hen and Jake in captivity I'm not sure you can say the chicks in your box are the offspring of a Jake.

[Paulmyr]

I find it amusing that some believe jakes wont or cant breed hens and about sperm not being viable. Hogwash. Thats the same as someone saying a young spike buck cant breed or be fertal. Utter nonsense. I say this because I have witnessed several times jakes breeding hens and poults being the result. Some with a spike and a doe.

Deer and turkeys are 2 completely different species with totaly different mating rituals. Actually deer have no rituals it's breeding by opprotunity. Not sure how comparing the 2 proves a point.

[Ihuntoldschool]

Complete Nonsense.

[owlhoot]

Of course it's possible but in general I think studies have shown most jakes aren't capable of producing viable sperm during the breeding season. Studies have also shown that subordinate toms don't produce the levels of testosterone needed to produce viable sperm. It's not that they won't try its Just the sperm isn't viable.

So now even a subordinate tom does not have good viable sperm?
So how far away does another tom have to be from the dominant tom to be considered dominate with testosterone and viable sperm?

[Paulmyr]

I guess that would be a grey area for me. Is the Sattelite  tom hanging in the outskirts considered to be a subordinate or does the definition apply only to the subordinates in a group of toms that hang together?

[owlhoot]

I guess that would be a grey area. Is the Sattelite  tom hanging in the outskirts considered to be a subordinate or does the definition apply only to the subordinates in a group of toms that hang together?

I would guess the latter. Toms a mile away from others don't seem to pay the other groups of toms much mind.
But a few times through many years, I have seen groups of toms go to other groups of toms and well I guess sort things out. They in those cases started out the morning gobbling a good distance apart but within a short time got together. Lots of gobbling and strutting. No hens around. Low T did not seem to be in the air. 

[WV Flopper]

 Man I wish half of this dumbness was true.... We would have a lot less stupid people in the word, if it applied to less than Alpha males as it does to subordinate Toms as some would think.

Think people, think.

[dah]

There are a few bird species that come to mind , eagles . that don't mature their first year and therefore do not  breed . But they are not out there strutting , gobbling and topping hens . Jake show all the characteristics of a breeder but somehow are sterile . Why would nature play such a trick ?
The argument the hens pick the breeder is a half truth . If this was the case , the gobblers would only display , there would be no fighting and pecking order , the hen would just pick , problem solved . You see this ranking of males thru out the animal kingdom , our bulls would determine who breeds , not the cows , such as lions , gorillas , Elk , Goats , etc,etc,etc. Our peacocks would go to the prettiest tail , never saw the cocks fight and all hens were hatching from Young or old cocks .
I hear it said studies show jakes infertile , but never once have I heard a wildlife department factor that when determining bag limits . They encourage hunters to take mature birds , have not heard them concerned they are leaving hens to sterile jakes .
As far as a subordinate , if you are not a boss , you are subordinate . Bosses will allow subordinates in the group provided they stay in front where he can see you , no breeding and you defend against intruders .
All jakes are not made equal , could there be sterile jakes , probably , late hatch jake or a bird not as healthy . But to say they are sterile , or the hens spend a week picking the next breeder when the boss is taken is wrong . The order is set , next man up . Sometimes a hen , or woman , will hang with a young Tom or young man . They can still get just as pregnant .