I wasn't really expecting to see this....
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-remingtonoutdoor-bankruptcy/u-s-gunmaker-remington-reaches-deal-with-creditors-to-file-for-bankruptcy-idUSKBN1FW23Q
Yep.. some of the other big names are struggling as well. Sales are way down. Obama was the best thing to ever happen to them...and they know it. Having Trump get elected was the worst thing ... no more fear factor..
You can only go off your name and sell junk for so long until people get tired of it. 15 years ago Remington was a quality shotgun and a great price, not so true anymore
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It's for sure sad days in the world of gun making ...companies ...some of Remington's low in rifles have not been very good quality but with most of the shotguns I've not seen a lot of problems. I'm thinking Remington was the first to come on the market with lower price 870 pump with the birch stocks etc. Which started changing the market for all gun manufacturers....down hill for quality for sure...
Quote from: davisd9 on February 13, 2018, 10:36:38 AM
You can only go off your name and sell junk for so long until people get tired of it. 15 years ago Remington was a quality shotgun and a great price, not so true anymore
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I agree 110%. You couldn't give me a new Remington product.
Quote from: FL-Boss on February 13, 2018, 09:17:29 AM
Yep.. some of the other big names are struggling as well. Sales are way down. Obama was the best thing to ever happen to them...and they know it. Having Trump get elected was the worst thing ... no more fear factor..
yep. Thanks a lot Trump!
I have firearms from each of the manufactures out their with 0 problems from their end. Remington started making the lower end firearms to be sold at Wal-Mart such as 788 and 887 as well as the No finish 870. The shotguns and rifles with the life time warranty are good to go. People want auto and pump shotguns for 200 dollars and expect them to be like 20,000 dollar guns.
Honestly I believe that AR platform firearms have became the demand in this day and time followed closely by custom built firearms. There are a whole bunch of companies showing up now days that are building firearms. Just my 2 cents.
Yep back in the day they were the real deal, not so much now.
It is sad that an American company that's been around as long as Remington could not keep up the quality. My old 870 Wingmaster has served me well but the new models I've seen have been pretty rough.
Quote from: davisd9 on February 13, 2018, 10:36:38 AM
You can only go off your name and sell junk for so long until people get tired of it. 15 years ago Remington was a quality shotgun and a great price, not so true anymore
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EXACTLY!!!!!!!
Quote from: Big Guy on February 13, 2018, 12:01:27 PM
Quote from: FL-Boss on February 13, 2018, 09:17:29 AM
Yep.. some of the other big names are struggling as well. Sales are way down. Obama was the best thing to ever happen to them...and they know it. Having Trump get elected was the worst thing ... no more fear factor..
yep. Thanks a lot Trump!
Has nothing to do with Trump. It has to do with selling junk. Their products have been on a decline for years. With the new administration supporting gun rights, they just won't sell as much junk.
Look at the numbers overall. Ruger, S&W, and others are seeing declining sales...and stock pricing way off the highs before the election. True, the Remington quality is not the same.. but I guess we older guys think that about everything these days. Nothing like my old 870 Wingmaster, Winchester Model 12 or Belgium made Browning, or 1984 Chevy truck... how often do we say that.
Obama created tons of fear for gun owners which keep gun shops packed.
There are a lot of trends going on here, as we hate to think there are a lot less of us "Hunters" in the market any more and fewer coming in to it. I still live in an area where hunting is pretty active, but I see less youth getting in to it... There are a lot of reasons I feel are about this but that's my interpretation . And would agree company wise they have fallen from the quality of product they have been making, in part competing in price with others. Drop in price, drop in manufacturing, drop in quality... Remington struggled many years ago and this is part of that result... I would have to look into the Chapter 11, but think this let's them do business for a while and see what they can do with the company, such as selling and such. Going to be a hard day for those involved and the suppliers and other businesses. Hopefully they can find a way to remain open and get back to the once quality firearm they produced.
MK M GOBL
I'd still prefer Trump to Obama bankruptcy or not lol
Some of their stuff is still excellent, the 700 rifle & variations, 7600 for example IMO. But they aren't $200. They do not sell because people buy cheap firearms. I was given a 710 bolt action, its junk compared to a higher end bolt. Mike
Quote from: Phillipshunt on February 13, 2018, 03:11:58 PM
I'd still prefer Trump to Obama bankruptcy or not lol
Exactly. If queen Hillary would have been elected we really would be in a dark place.
Quote from: Phillipshunt on February 13, 2018, 03:11:58 PM
I'd still prefer Trump to Obama bankruptcy or not lol
Ain't that the truth!!!!!
FL boss, I didn't mean to jump on you, I was stating that Trump didn't start this decline. I own 3 Remington firearms 1100, 870 and 700 BDL from the 70 and 80's. LOVE them. Many shells through all 3. But the current president didn't have a thing to do with Remmy going out of business. For years, American gun companies have had to compete with overseas companies for market share. To compete, they have had to cut corners. In some cases, many corners and quality has slipped greatly. Obama (FEAR=Market) was the Band aid that kept these companies going. Now it's time to pay the Piper. I've always been a walnut wood stock guy but it's hard to find a rifle or shotgun now that doesn't have many stamped parts and tons of plastic. We (Hunters) are a dying breed. Fewer young people are interested in the outdoors and as such more outdoor companies will be following this same practice or you will see companies consolidating. Cabelas and Bass Pro are just the tip of iceberg. Just saying.
I see your point bbcoach and I agree the quality and lack of future buyers is fading. My point was it's just not Remington. It's all the big U.S. gun companies.. Interesting read - https://nypost.com/2016/11/21/trump-win-sinks-gun-stocks-and-gun-shop-sales/
https://nypost.com/2017/12/08/smith-wesson-owners-stock-takes-a-shot-to-the-gut/
It's funny how someone has 1 bad experience with a product and they call it junk. And it's kind of adorable of those who say, "they don't make them like they used to." Of course they don't. They have to make the product cheaper to stay competitive. I have shot several 870's over the years and they have all been amazing. Yes Remington has struggled with handguns but they make quality shotguns and rifles. Yes they've had recalls but what gun manufacture hasn't. I bet that the people calling them junk shoot the $1800 Benelli Super Black Eagle 3 and think that a $300 shotgun should work just as well and when it doesn't they think that it's sub par. There has been a reason that they have sold millions of 870's and 700's.
Quote from: Premier Turkey Calls on February 13, 2018, 07:11:54 PM
It's funny how someone has 1 bad experience with a product and they call it junk. And it's kind of adorable of those who say, "they don't make them like they used to." Of course they don't. They have to make the product cheaper to stay competitive. I have shot several 870's over the years and they have all been amazing. Yes Remington has struggled with handguns but they make quality shotguns and rifles. Yes they've had recalls but what gun manufacture hasn't. I bet that the people calling them junk shoot the $1800 Benelli Super Black Eagle 3 and think that a $300 shotgun should work just as well and when it doesn't they think that it's sub par. There has been a reason that they have sold millions of 870's and 700's.
I called it junk and I have messed with a good number of the 870s in the last 10 years helping people get them set up. I have an 11-87 20 ga in the safe that rusts when you breath on it. I picked up the 700 and sat it down cause it felt like sand paper when working the bolt, I was promised it would get better with use, but the Savage I bought felt good right then and there. Never own a Benelli. I turkey hunt with a Mossberg 500 and duck hunt with a 835 I used to turkey hunt with. Some of us has more experience with what we are talking about than you are willing to give us credit for.
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The last 2 700's I bought within the last 4 years work and shoot just fine .
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I called it junk and I have messed with a good number of the 870s in the last 10 years helping people get them set up. I have an 11-87 20 ga in the safe that rusts when you breath on it. I picked up the 700 and sat it down cause it felt like sand paper when working the bolt, I was promised it would get better with use, but the Savage I bought felt good right then and there. Never own a Benelli. I turkey hunt with a Mossberg 500 and duck hunt with a 835 I used to turkey hunt with. Some of us has more experience with what we are talking about than you are willing to give us credit for.
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[/quote]
Saying that something is junk is all about perception. That stiff bolt on your 700 might go unnoticed to someone where that's all that they've ever known. Growing up shooting guns I never noticed trigger pull weight because I was unaware that trigger pulls varied significantly or affected the shot. I just shot guns and adapted to how they operated and thought nothing of it. When I learned about trigger pull affecting accuracy, then I started to nitpick triggers. The gun's that you say are junk and have problems with may not be a problem for the next guy because they've adapted to it's situation. Your 11-87 that rusts might not be a problem for the average guy who adapted to it and his solution is to apply extra oil. My point is that calling a gun junk is mere opinion. I could call a Benelli junk because it misfired where my Ruger never misfired therefore it's superior. Opinion.
They will likely emerge through this , but may be forced to sell off thier numerous divisions/companies like bushmaster
Nearly 1 billion in debt is no joke.
I will say the remington ammunition. ..not sure if dupont still controls that is a utter joke in its waterfowl and turkey selections and its.been stagnant for 30 years in that area--sleeping at the wheel
I have 4 Remington shotguns (all pre 2000) and all are great hunting guns. Ugly as mud posts, but great guns. Their core lock ammo also shoots very well in my -06.
I've looked at some of their new guns but they feel cheap in fit and finish.
I'm just sorry they bought Marlin which has really gone down hill. If Remington has to sell off divisions, hopefully Marlin gets bought by another gun maker who will improve quality...
Quote from: Kylongspur88 on February 13, 2018, 08:45:47 PM
I have 4 Remington shotguns (all pre 2000) and all are great hunting guns. Ugly as mud posts, but great guns. Their core lock ammo also shoots very well in my -06.
I've looked at some of their new guns but they feel cheap in fit and finish.
I'm just sorry they bought Marlin which has really gone down hill. If Remington has to sell off divisions, hopefully Marlin gets bought by another gun maker who will improve quality...
They feel cheap because they're being compared to your previous guns. Someone picking the new 870 up for the first time might say it feels like a solid gun. Feeling cheap is different than being cheap. And yes they have changed the gun. If they built the 870 the way they used to it wouldn't be as affordable as it is now. I own a post 2000 870 and despite it "feeling cheap" I have yet to have a problem.
Model 870 over 12,000,000 ; Model 700 over 6,000,000 ; Model 1100 over 4,000,000 ; Model 760 over 1,000,000 ; Model 742 over 1,500,000 ; Nylon 66 over 1,250,000 ; I bought an 870 Turkey/Predator new 5 yrs ago and it has performed flawlessly and killed every turkey shot at, I own a Special Field 20 ga, an 1187 12 ga and an 1100 12 ga in the last 30 yrs and all performed flawlessly. That's proof to me. I know something else (no offense meant) but opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one. Give me a Remington any day. My :z-twocents: worth.
Figures I just bought an 870 youth turkey gun for myself Sunday. I know they aren't what they used to be but it was one that I could get a 21 inch barrel in. I grew up on Remington and still have a 1970's wingmaster that was passed down to me from my dad. It has taken a lot of game. I also have a couple model 700's that were from the 90's and are awesome rifles.Hopefully the new one holds up
Quote from: FL-Boss on February 13, 2018, 09:17:29 AM
Yep.. some of the other big names are struggling as well. Sales are way down. Obama was the best thing to ever happen to them...and they know it. Having Trump get elected was the worst thing ... no more fear factor..
100%
WOW Big Green going down....hate to hear this.
Bankruptcy doesn't mean we'll necessarily see the end of Remington. Corporately they will likely restructure and possibly merge with another company or a new CEO will be brought into rejuvenate the company and the brand. That's my glass half full scenario. Lots of competition nowadays. We shall see.
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Quote from: trkehunr93 on February 14, 2018, 11:10:46 AM
Bankruptcy doesn't mean we'll necessarily see the end of Remington. Corporately they will likely restructure and possibly merge with another company or a new CEO will be brought into rejuvenate the company and the brand. That's my glass half full scenario. Lots of competition nowadays. We shall see.
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i'm sure its a restructure, even at a loss that's too much revenue to walk away from
Here's a good read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Arms Remington is already called Freedom Group. They were sold back in early 2007 and had already accumulated millions of dollars of debt. This may be chapter 11 but this doesn't look good for their future. I think we will see some go under and some companies consolidate just to stay afloat.
I'm glad trump is in office and I am glad I just went to Walmart and bought a new 870 20 gauge camo compact for 367.00 plus taxes model 81174
And I bought a new Remington 11-87 about 3 or 4 years ago.
Some call It junk I say thank God for others junk in my trunk because one mans trash in another mans treasure I also have a benelli sbe2 25th anniversary, and a new Franchi Affinity 3 not bragging just saying speaking from someone who has em both. I love em all. I will agree the Remington shotgun today ain't your grandpas 1100 or wingmaster but to call them junk is a little wild I believe.
I don't want to see any gun manufacture go belly up. We love our guns and gear. That would be folks without jobs, no money equals no way to afford mortgage payments car payments and food.
I am thankful for America, I am thankful for my president, I am thankful for Remington.
Hopefully benelli will buy em out and keep them in business.
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Quote from: SKFOOTER on February 13, 2018, 01:43:42 PM
Quote from: davisd9 on February 13, 2018, 10:36:38 AM
You can only go off your name and sell junk for so long until people get tired of it. 15 years ago Remington was a quality shotgun and a great price, not so true anymore
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EXACTLY!!!!!!!
Its more a sign of the times than anything...Scrimp,cut corners,get it out the door as fast as possible at all costs.(It just finally caught up with them)..Hopefully they will get back to quality and not quantity and pull through...
I also agree less hunters and more competition has a part to play in it..
Quote from: trkehunr93 on February 14, 2018, 11:10:46 AM
Bankruptcy doesn't mean we'll necessarily see the end of .....
How true,....If only it were not....
Nevermind their firearms...they lost me with their ammo issues a long time ago. My brother, Dad, and I got burned on corelokt misfires out of 3 different calibers...
I've never owned a rem shotgun, but i watched a friend of mine's new 870 fall apart on him. No doubt the older shotguns are great, but the newer stuff had taken a nose dive IMO.
They'll pull through the re-structure though, and will probably be better for it.
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I own three Remington shotguns and three remingto rifles. All of them are older except for one of the rifles which was purchased in 2010. You can tell a big difference in the quality of the older guns versus the new guns. I hope big green can get through this and get back to producing the guns we grew up with and expect from Remington.
Quote from: davisd9 on February 13, 2018, 10:36:38 AM
You can only go off your name and sell junk for so long until people get tired of it. 15 years ago Remington was a quality shotgun and a great price, not so true anymore
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The problem I had with the last Remington I bought goes back to about 1998.
But this paragraph tells the story of one of its biggest problem, and that is being bought by the LBO pirates (they adopted "private equity" for better PR) and pillaged, plundered, and stripped to death by fees while suffering declining quality and a big drop in gun sales.
Cerberus Capital Management LP, the private equity firm that controls Remington, will lose ownership of the company as a result of the bankruptcy. The company's creditors, which include Franklin Templeton Investments and JPMorgan Asset Management, will exchange their debt holdings for equity in the company.
I like Remington.Ive fired thousands of rounds through Remington shotguns.Never a problem.
Haven't seen any problems :smiley-char092: yet ?
See my post about discontinuing a lot of parts for the 11-87 Super Mag. That's my thoughts on Remington, they can forget my business.
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I've said it before 99.9% of the complaints about 870s is with the cheap Express models. Spend some money and get a Wingmaster and you will have no issues. The model 700's same thing if you try to bargain hunt and buy a Wallmart Adl model you'll get what you pay for the higher end BDL is a better made gun. It's like everything else Remington couldn't keep the low end models the same quality as the high end models and make a profit. I hope Remington can make it thru this situation and not move production to China or Japan like Winchester.
Quote from: Phillipshunt on March 17, 2018, 09:59:55 AM
I've said it before 99.9% of the complaints about 870s is with the cheap Express models. Spend some money and get a Wingmaster and you will have no issues. The model 700's same thing if you try to bargain hunt and buy a Wallmart Adl model you'll get what you pay for the higher end BDL is a better made gun. It's like everything else Remington couldn't keep the low end models the same quality as the high end models and make a profit. I hope Remington can make it thru this situation and not move production to China or Japan like Winchester.
Here in lies the problem, Quality! Buy a Wingmaster, instead of an Express or a BDL over an ADL. Why make a product if there are going to be issues? Company names are associated with the products they sell, Good or Bad. If Quality slips so does the company. When a company makes a lesser product and the quality of that product slips or fails, that company has to except that and sometimes it ends bad. The early Remington firearms were Quality Arms, many today are made with plastics which fail. I hope Remington and others will learn from their mistakes and put Quality first.
Remington 870 express, are cheap guns, but they are just the ticket for a lot of people.I would not buy one, but I have bought a few for realitives.
Quote from: bbcoach on March 17, 2018, 11:13:02 AM
Quote from: Phillipshunt on March 17, 2018, 09:59:55 AM
I've said it before 99.9% of the complaints about 870s is with the cheap Express models. Spend some money and get a Wingmaster and you will have no issues. The model 700's same thing if you try to bargain hunt and buy a Wallmart Adl model you'll get what you pay for the higher end BDL is a better made gun. It's like everything else Remington couldn't keep the low end models the same quality as the high end models and make a profit. I hope Remington can make it thru this situation and not move production to China or Japan like Winchester.
Here in lies the problem, Quality! Buy a Wingmaster, instead of an Express or a BDL over an ADL. Why make a product if there are going to be issues? Company names are associated with the products they sell, Good or Bad. If Quality slips so does the company. When a company makes a lesser product and the quality of that product slips or fails, that company has to except that and sometimes it ends bad. The early Remington firearms were Quality Arms, many today are made with plastics which fail. I hope Remington and others will learn from their mistakes and put Quality first.
You want a smooth action and nice dark bluing buy a Wingmaster you want a Express it's gonna have cheap Matt finish synthetic stock and the action will be a little ruff when new. I guess Remington thinks if you can't afford the Wingmaster then your opinion doesn't matter ...I agree with Remington.
BTT. Just saw this https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunmaker-remington-files-bankruptcy-024501891--sector.html Looks as if it's official, as of yesterday. I hope they find a CEO that will get them back on track.
Quote from: Phillipshunt on March 17, 2018, 05:03:13 PM
Quote from: bbcoach on March 17, 2018, 11:13:02 AM
Quote from: Phillipshunt on March 17, 2018, 09:59:55 AM
I've said it before 99.9% of the complaints about 870s is with the cheap Express models. Spend some money and get a Wingmaster and you will have no issues. The model 700's same thing if you try to bargain hunt and buy a Wallmart Adl model you'll get what you pay for the higher end BDL is a better made gun. It's like everything else Remington couldn't keep the low end models the same quality as the high end models and make a profit. I hope Remington can make it thru this situation and not move production to China or Japan like Winchester.
Here in lies the problem, Quality! Buy a Wingmaster, instead of an Express or a BDL over an ADL. Why make a product if there are going to be issues? Company names are associated with the products they sell, Good or Bad. If Quality slips so does the company. When a company makes a lesser product and the quality of that product slips or fails, that company has to except that and sometimes it ends bad. The early Remington firearms were Quality Arms, many today are made with plastics which fail. I hope Remington and others will learn from their mistakes and put Quality first.
You want a smooth action and nice dark bluing buy a Wingmaster you want a Express it's gonna have cheap Matt finish synthetic stock and the action will be a little ruff when new. I guess Remington thinks if you can't afford the Wingmaster then your opinion doesn't matter ...I agree with Remington.
Agreed. Not everyone needs or can afford the high end of that manufacturer's model. Except for the guns I have won at charity events as raffle and door prizes, I have bought every single gun I own. Not daddy or rich Uncle Moneybags. Fresh out of college, I bought a "cheap" Remington ADL from Academy Sports and Outdoors for $330 in 2004 as my first rifle. Yeah, it had an ugly plastic stock, plastic trigger guard, and other "shortcuts" but the barrel and the trigger were great and I couldn't afford to spend twice as much for the wood stock BDL. Same with my first 870.
I can now afford a little better of a gun and that's what I do when it's time for me to purchase one.
And as previously mentioned by a few, bankruptcy doesn't mean going out of business. There are several types of "bankruptcy" and they are probably just restructuring their debt. Some of the people they currently owe money to are going to get screwed.
The gun control crowd is taking advantage of this though, good media hype for them ::). I say lets have a national conversation about men being fathers to their sons and getting people appropriate mental health care when it's needed. Those are the two conversations that need to be had, I've had both with my 15 year old son and to a much lesser degree my 6 year old son because it's my responsibility as a father.
Remington has come close to bankruptcy another time in it's history. After the Civil War, when everybody had a gun, it almost went bankrupt but was saved by it's new Remington Rolling Block rifle which was the newest, hottest gun on the market because you could put a ready made cartridge into it and shoot at least 10 times a minute with a little practice. No more muzzle loading! They went on to manufacture millions of Rolling Blocks and RBs were even used in WW2. Rolling Blocks are getting more popular now with all the "cowboy action, and old single shot fans. More buffalo hunters used RBs than any other gun. It was invented in 1858 by Leonard Geiger and he sold the patent rights to Rem. and helped them develop it further. The first ones were used in the last few months of the Civil War. Geo. Custer had one at the Battle of the Little Bighorn but his troops hadn't received them yet. There were also RB shotguns made. It's actually the gun that won the West. Very interesting part of history and one of the most significant advancements in firearms ever made. Leonard Geiger deserves a lot more recognition for his ground breaking invention. I bet you never heard of him!
:(I have some older Remingtons that are great guns . I got a ne Remington 870 bottom land last year rght before turkey season it was a real peace of JUNK would not hold a pattern at all no matte whit I shot . when Remington was in n.y. they had greatguns BUT when they moved to MAYFIELD KY that's when they started putting out JUNK if it says MAFILED KY on it its JUNK all my turkey gun now say MOSSBERG .....
Quote from: captfire on April 01, 2018, 05:46:00 PM
:(I have some older Remingtons that are great guns . I got a ne Remington 870 bottom land last year rght before turkey season it was a real peace of JUNK would not hold a pattern at all no matte whit I shot . when Remington was in n.y. they had greatguns BUT when they moved to MAYFIELD KY that's when they started putting out JUNK if it says MAFILED KY on it its JUNK all my turkey gun now say MOSSBERG .....
You bought a Bottomland 870 last year new ....cool were did you find the time machine? Lol
The problem with the bankruptcy however it turns out usually means more corner cutting remember when Winchester made all ther Guns in the us? Not any more a lot of Japanese and other imports. Good news there are thousands of good Wingmasters for sale used that haven't even been broken in yet.
Quote from: Phillipshunt on March 17, 2018, 09:59:55 AM
I've said it before 99.9% of the complaints about 870s is with the cheap Express models. Spend some money and get a Wingmaster and you will have no issues. The model 700's same thing if you try to bargain hunt and buy a Wallmart Adl model you'll get what you pay for the higher end BDL is a better made gun. It's like everything else Remington couldn't keep the low end models the same quality as the high end models and make a profit. I hope Remington can make it thru this situation and not move production to China or Japan like Winchester.
Exactly. Everything is built to a price point and many people don't want to pay for a Wingmaster or a BDL 700. To accommodate these people, there are other lines such as, the Express, 783, etc. No way they can be produced with the same quality as the higher end guns and charge less. It's the same in every manufacturing business that tries to accommodate everyone. Like you said Phillipshunt, 99.9% of the complaints are with the less expensive models due to actions not being as smooth, etc.
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Quote from: Phillipshunt on April 01, 2018, 06:16:42 PM
Quote from: captfire on April 01, 2018, 05:46:00 PM
:(I have some older Remingtons that are great guns . I got a ne Remington 870 bottom land last year rght before turkey season it was a real peace of JUNK would not hold a pattern at all no matte whit I shot . when Remington was in n.y. they had greatguns BUT when they moved to MAYFIELD KY that's when they started putting out JUNK if it says MAFILED KY on it its JUNK all my turkey gun now say MOSSBERG .....
You bought a Bottomland 870 last year new ....cool were did you find the time machine? Lol
The problem with the bankruptcy however it turns out usually means more corner cutting remember when Winchester made all ther Guns in the us? Not any more a lot of Japanese and other imports. Good news there are thousands of good Wingmasters for sale used that haven't even been broken in yet.
He probably bought number 81125, which is the 870 Super Magnum Turkey/Waterfowl model.
Also Capt, Remington is still right here in NY, where they started, still producing quality shotguns and rifles.
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