Read an article yesterday saying Kentucky Game Commission was considering a one bird limit next year?I thought KY was doing well. True or did I misread the article?
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Turkey populations before the urbanization of North America was I believe around 10 million birds. Around the start of the NWTF, the population was around 1.5 million birds. The population rebounded greatly and peaked at around 6.7 million. Now, we are seeing numbers around 6 million. I think what we are seeing regulation wise across the states are knee jerk reactions out of fear that turkeys are going to disappear again or are well on their way to extinction. I believe that turkeys rebounded past their carrying capacity in certain habitats, and naturally you are seeing numbers ebb and flow. As we move forward, I believe we definitely need to keep an eye on the situation, however I think we are seeing regulations succumb to popular opinion rather than repeatable evidence. Turkey numbers have increased in some areas and decreased in others. We will see what happens.
Going to a 1 bird limit in every state wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.
I think it is safe to say that turkey hunter numbers are increasing. Not only that, but it appears the number of turkey hunters that are now traveling to other states to hunt is also on the increase. I think part of what we are seeing in terms of reduced bag limits is a response to the reality that there are more turkey hunters and that more pressure is being put on the resource in a lot of places.
Wildlife managers, under the conditions we are now facing with increasing demand and decreasing resource, are faced with making management decisions based on either "quality" or "quantity". In other words, do we want to give those increasing numbers of hunters a better chance at a quality hunting experience,....i.e...the likelihood of hearing and having more turkeys to hunt,...or do we want to continue to have higher individual bag limits resulting in more turkeys being killed, which in turn, reduces the "quality" aspect of the hunt,...i.e...having fewer gobbling turkeys in the woods for those increasing numbers of hunters to pursue.
The trend we are seeing in wildlife management is that the "quality" philosophy is overriding that "quantity" philosophy,...and especially in those places where the resource is stagnant or decreasing. In addition, the mindset of the new generation of wildlife professionals, many of whom have not been raised in a hunting environment, does not necessarily relate to the past adage that "good hunters should be able to take more game because,...well, they are "good hunters!".
We have heard the argument right here on OG that "10% of the hunters kill 90% of the birds". That may well be true, and that fact is only exacerbated when you allow that 10% to keep killing turkeys when the other 90% is not. Again, I think the trend in wildlife management is to "spread the wealth" to give those increasing numbers of hunters a better chance of success.
For those of us that lived through the "glory years" of turkey hunting with lots of opportunity and high bag limits, that fact may not set too well. The reality today, though, is that "the times,...they are a changin'". Better get used to it....
Quote from: Hook hanger on June 10, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
Going to a 1 bird limit in every state wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.
If the harvest of gobblers is timed correctly (after all the hens are bred), you could in theory harvest every single gobbler in the entire state, and the jakes this year would do the breeding the following year (as 2-year-olds).
So, IMO, it is more an issue of timing the harvest rather than enacting stricter limits...
Quote from: PNWturkey on June 10, 2021, 09:40:35 AM
Quote from: Hook hanger on June 10, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
Going to a 1 bird limit in every state wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.
If the harvest of gobblers is timed correctly (after all the hens are bred), you could in theory harvest every single gobbler in the entire state, and the jakes this year would do the breeding the following year (as 2-year-olds).
So, IMO, it is more an issue of timing the harvest rather than enacting stricter limits...
I agree,...but that entire premise was based on continuing reproductive success in any give turkey population over time. We are seeing increasing concern that some regions are experiencing too many consecutive years where that population recruitment is not keeping up with the gobbler harvest that is taking place on a yearly basis. Again, there reaches a tipping point where that has to be taken into account.
...And again, the solution lies in addressing the issue of reproductive success, but until that happens, the only recourse is to reduce gobbler harvest or go back to supplementing bird numbers artificially where needed (i.e...transplants).
This thread begs the question:
What percent of overall turkey harvest is from hunters harvesting 2+ birds?
Would be interesting to see this data on a state-by-state basis!
i.e. if most of overall harvest is by hunters harvesting just 1 bird, then restricting bag limits to 1 bird obviously doesn't put much of a dent in the overall harvest and is just more of a political/PR/equity stunt...
Quote from: PNWturkey on June 10, 2021, 09:40:35 AM
Quote from: Hook hanger on June 10, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
Going to a 1 bird limit in every state wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.
If the harvest of gobblers is timed correctly (after all the hens are bred), you could in theory harvest every single gobbler in the entire state, and the jakes this year would do the breeding the following year (as 2-year-olds).
So, IMO, it is more an issue of timing the harvest rather than enacting stricter limits...
One must take into consideration the low survival rate and nesting.
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Reducing bag limits would also lead to the inevitable, unreported harvest. How many guys that have shot two turkeys on their own private land are going to just up and stop killing a 2nd bird on their own land that may have sustainable to excellent turkey numbers because the state told them so?
Sure it'll slow down public land harvest, but those guys will continue to kill two on their private lands because they like hunting and they like to eat turkey.
Kansas is prime example of this, and I bet if you asked around small town bars during turkey season how they felt about the bag limit reduction from 2 to 1, they might just tell you they'd already shot three this year.
Quote from: PNWturkey on June 10, 2021, 10:16:09 AM
This thread begs the question:
What percent of overall turkey harvest is from hunters harvesting 2+ birds?
Would be interesting to see this data on a state-by-state basis!
i.e. if most of overall harvest is by hunters harvesting just 1 bird, then restricting bag limits to 1 bird obviously doesn't put much of a dent in the overall harvest and is just more of a political/PR/equity stunt...
I can assure you, those who kill more than one carry a much higher percentage of the overall harvest percentage wise.
I have never been checked or even seen a Wildlife Officer here in N.C. during the Turkey season . Reporting your harvest is pretty much the honor system I think .
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This problem might fix itself. What I mean by that is, yes we have more
traveling turkey hunters now than ever before. It seems to me that turkey
hunting is almost a fad now. If gobbler populations drop to where you would be lucky to hear one bird gobble, a lot of these traveling hunters would stop traveling. It would be too difficult and cost too much money
for too little chance of success.
High turkey populations have fueled a lot of this traveling, and that's all
a lot of these travelers know. They started hunting when populations were high. Older hunters were hunting before the population explosion and will
be less affected.
IMHO, I think that rather than reducing bag limits, we should look for ways to reduce hunter effectiveness.
This would include banning decoys, fanning, and shortening seasons.
IMO this will help populations more than reducing the bag limit.
I know some of you here don't like more regulations, but they're coming
whether you like them or not.
If we really want to reduce hunter effectiveness, then ban turkey calls, camouflage, and firearms too.
Make everyone call with their natural voice, wear hunter orange, and use archery equipment.
Once the bans start, where do they stop?
Quote from: TonyTurk on June 10, 2021, 01:34:29 PM
If we really want to reduce hunter effectiveness, then ban turkey calls, camouflage, and firearms too.
Make everyone call with their natural voice, wear hunter orange, and use archery equipment.
Once the bans start, where do they stop?
I understand your point, I'm just saying that this would be more effective than reducing bag limits.
Another thing they could do if they could get all of the states together
would be to have 3 opening days across the country.
Southern states could open on April 1st, central states could open on
April 15th, and northern states could open on April 30th. That would
eliminate hopping around and hitting a bunch of different opening days.
I'm just trying to throw ideas out there because neither I nor anybody
else really knows what they should do.
I don't really care if they do anything. That was why I said it'll probably
fix itself. There will be less hunters and less turkeys, just like it used to be.
I'm ok with that.
TonyTurk - do you have any ideas about what they can or should do?
It may not be popular opinion, but I am not for reducing success. I hunt turkeys to kill them. I greatly appreciate everything else... The woods coming to life as the sun rises, the time spent with friends, the calls, the people you meet. But, over time, if my chances continue to decline, there will come a point where the gun will hang up for good. The Southern Bobwhite Quail is a prime example. If turkeys ever get to a spot where action must be taken, reducing hunter effectively will simply drive people out of the sport, and the funds for the management of the birds will be driven away with the person that left. Hunters are directly responsible for the survival of game species. If it weren't for us, game would not exist. It's not smart to push people out.
Quote from: Jimspur on June 10, 2021, 04:54:29 PM
Quote from: TonyTurk on June 10, 2021, 01:34:29 PM
If we really want to reduce hunter effectiveness, then ban turkey calls, camouflage, and firearms too.
Make everyone call with their natural voice, wear hunter orange, and use archery equipment.
Once the bans start, where do they stop?
I understand your point, I'm just saying that this would be more effective than reducing bag limits.
Another thing they could do if they could get all of the states together
would be to have 3 opening days across the country.
Southern states could open on April 1st, central states could open on
April 15th, and northern states could open on April 30th. That would
eliminate hopping around and hitting a bunch of different opening days.
I'm just trying to throw ideas out there because neither I nor anybody
else really knows what they should do.
I don't really care if they do anything. That was why I said it'll probably
fix itself. There will be less hunters and less turkeys, just like it used to be.
I'm ok with that.
TonyTurk - do you have any ideas about what they can or should do?
I really like the idea of the three opening date across the country that you proposed. I also wouldn't mind seeing the first 7 days of a season being open for residents only. Give the local guys first crack before the out of staters. Also would not be opposed to some sort of limited-entry draw for the more popular public areas.
I think there are a few places where we can improve the regulations we have, overall. We do not need more regulation IMO.
WV moved their season up one week just to stop the pressure from in state hunters. There was NO research on this, only looking at bordering states dates. That was the only research done on this.
It was determined that we (WV) would gain monies from Nonresidents license sales with an earlier start date. Done deal! When this took effect, local turkey killers cried. Myself included! We lost one of the best weeks of season in some areas of the state (Geographic Regions). Three years of crying and we got our last week back, but the week on the front end stayed! Now we have a season that last seemingly forever.
I will ask this question, in states that have a split season (Early starting dates in sections) how many residents flood the earlier starting are each year? I have wished WV would do this for years, many years. But, I think public ground would get flooded with people, and what kind of hunting experience is that?
I do think we have several issues currently with our population. I also think SOME areas have reached and passed their carrying capacity. Seems like it would be an exciting time to me to be a turkey Biologist, lots of angles and stuff to look at.
We all should not lay down, but we should let the professionals do their job. Yes, we may need to help them along the way as well.
https://wvmetronews.com/2021/06/08/dnr-2021-spring-gobbler-harvest-figures-released
2021 WV harvest figures attached
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2021 WV harvest down over 10% in spite of an additional week of hunting season added.
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Have not yet been to KY. At least they are being proactive, nothing like waiting until it's too late! Lowering limits surely won't hurt as far as population.
And for the guys talking about shooting over limits, those guys already are!
Did anyone who replied read the OP thread?
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In the 1990s and early 2000s there were far fewer predators in the WV woods. Coyotes and bobcats were not firmly rooted in most of the state and only a fraction of coons roamed the landscape compared to these days. 40 to 50 years of nearly year round killing of coons by coon hunters had kept the coon population under control and nest predation by them at a minimum. The strong fur market fueled coon harvest in the season and dog training by fanatic houndsmen kept the pressure on coons in the off season keeping their numbers in check. Trappers also helped in this endeavor when fur prices were robust.
As it stands now, coon populations have exploded, in huge part due to less places to hunt with hounds, a nearly nonexistent fur market, and only a fraction of coon hunters there were back then due to many other reasons.
Bobcats and coyotes are commonly seen now in the daylight hours when neither are most active.
And further, just as a personal observation, I cannot ever remember seeing more birds of prey as I do currently. Owls and hawks of all types are more present than ever in the locations I hunt and on the farm where I live.
These high numbers of predators must certainly have an impact on brooding and nesting success and recruitment. Throw in opossums, crows, and domestic cats and it's not difficult to understand the tough road young turkeys must overcome to adulthood.
Perhaps predation isn't the main cause of turkey decline but I believe it is one of the major components that need to be addressed. Foothold traps, live traps, dog proof traps, and hound hunting can put a large dent in the coon population rather quickly. Seasoned trappers can effectively thin the coyotes, foxes and bobcats in an area as well. I acknowledge there's nothing that can be done about owls and hawks but crows can be killed easily with electronic calls and a box of shotgun shells.
These steps may not restore turkey numbers to the heights of the good old days but it will without a doubt produce better results than sitting on a forum bitching, moaning, and crying in your beers about the current state of things. These attempts certainly won't hurt anything and will provide opportunity to be outdoors.
In my lifetime I've certainly done my part in the realm of raccoon harvest. All the trucks at a UPS hub couldn't haul the coons I've killed in my lifetime. A heart attack at 46 effectively ended my hound hunting for the most part but I still run a few traps, call in several coyotes per year, and takeout all the known non-protected nest predators I come across. My point is that I try to practice what I preach and my place has kept a solid turkey population while other farms not far away have declined. I encourage others to give it a try.
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Quote from: snoodcrusher on June 10, 2021, 07:34:13 PM
In the 1990s and early 2000s there were far fewer predators in the WV woods. Coyotes and bobcats were not firmly rooted in most of the state and only a fraction of coons roamed the landscape compared to these days. 40 to 50 years of nearly year round killing of coons by coon hunters had kept the coon population under control and nest predation by them at a minimum. The strong fur market fueled coon harvest in the season and dog training by fanatic houndsmen kept the pressure on coons in the off season keeping their numbers in check. Trappers also helped in this endeavor when fur prices were robust.
As it stands now, coon populations have exploded, in huge part due to less places to hunt with hounds, a nearly nonexistent fur market, and only a fraction of coon hunters there were back then due to many other reasons.
Bobcats and coyotes are commonly seen now in the daylight hours when neither are most active.
And further, just as a personal observation, I cannot ever remember seeing more birds of prey as I do currently. Owls and hawks of all types are more present than ever in the locations I hunt and on the farm where I live.
These high numbers of predators must certainly have an impact on brooding and nesting success and recruitment. Throw in opossums, crows, and domestic cats and it's not difficult to understand the tough road young turkeys must overcome to adulthood.
Perhaps predation isn't the main cause of turkey decline but I believe it is one of the major components that need to be addressed. Foothold traps, live traps, dog proof traps, and hound hunting can put a large dent in the coon population rather quickly. Seasoned trappers can effectively thin the coyotes, foxes and bobcats in an area as well. I acknowledge there's nothing that can be done about owls and hawks but crows can be killed easily with electronic calls and a box of shotgun shells.
These steps may not restore turkey numbers to the heights of the good old days but it will without a doubt produce better results than sitting on a forum bitching, moaning, and crying in your beers about the current state of things. These attempts certainly won't hurt anything and will provide opportunity to be outdoors.
In my lifetime I've certainly done my part in the realm of raccoon harvest. All the trucks at a UPS hub couldn't haul the coons I've killed in my lifetime. A heart attack at 46 effectively ended my hound hunting for the most part but I still run a few traps, call in several coyotes per year, and takeout all the known non-protected nest predators I come across. My point is that I try to practice what I preach and my place has kept a solid turkey population while other farms not far away have declined. I encourage others to give it a try.
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. This fella sees it the same way I see it .
Quote from: PNWturkey on June 10, 2021, 10:16:09 AM
This thread begs the question:
What percent of overall turkey harvest is from hunters harvesting 2+ birds?
Would be interesting to see this data on a state-by-state basis!
i.e. if most of overall harvest is by hunters harvesting just 1 bird, then restricting bag limits to 1 bird obviously doesn't put much of a dent in the overall harvest and is just more of a political/PR/equity stunt...
it's pretty low in my state. Like less than 20% even kill multiple birds and less than 10 tag out. So we killed 9000 this year roughly . Down from 12k last year and 13 the year before. So around a 1000 birds would be spared by the 10% who tag out , and you have to consider 50% of the 20% who kill multiple birds are the 10% who tag out. So let's just say another 500-1000 birds are saved . In the end , while it would help some , it doesn't seem to be part of the problem. I am that 10%..... and even though it wouldn't matter much.... I would be happy to see a reduction in the bag limit personally. Makes me a hypocrite I guess .
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 10, 2021, 09:52:34 AM
Quote from: PNWturkey on June 10, 2021, 09:40:35 AM
Quote from: Hook hanger on June 10, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
Going to a 1 bird limit in every state wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.
If the harvest of gobblers is timed correctly (after all the hens are bred), you could in theory harvest every single gobbler in the entire state, and the jakes this year would do the breeding the following year (as 2-year-olds).
So, IMO, it is more an issue of timing the harvest rather than enacting stricter limits...
I agree,...but that entire premise was based on continuing reproductive success in any give turkey population over time. We are seeing increasing concern that some regions are experiencing too many consecutive years where that population recruitment is not keeping up with the gobbler harvest that is taking place on a yearly basis. Again, there reaches a tipping point where that has to be taken into account.
...And again, the solution lies in addressing the issue of reproductive success, but until that happens, the only recourse is to reduce gobbler harvest or go back to supplementing bird numbers artificially where needed (i.e...transplants).
I like the transplants idea. Restocking seems to have gotten this whole population boom going. Lets get it going again .
Also comparison of how long the restocking was started- stopped before population in that state started to decline compared to states that have stable or increasing population. Tackle that one.
Quote from: snoodcrusher on June 10, 2021, 06:49:01 PM
2021 WV harvest down over 10% in spite of an additional week of hunting season added.
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Seems to be that the 2020 season had a lot if increases in a lot of states due to covid shutdowns increasing hunters numbers and extra time in the field.
Then the 2021 season in those states had a decrease in harvest.
Could this be a sign of increasing harvest leaving not enough for a good harvest the next year or more ?
Guess we will see in 2022.
EDIT: I incorrectly listed this as the record harvest. It is the second lowest since 2011. I had read an article during season which stated we were on track to beat last years but it didnt end up that way.
This is the record of harvest statewide here in KY for the spring 2021 season.
Male. Female Total.
28961. 232. 29193
If that's what they say is the best option to continue forward I'm for it. I think there are plentiful reasons for the numbers changing nationwide, predator numbers and increased hunter pressure being a great part of that. We have a 1 Buck limit as well for deer.
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When the minds passing the time at the agencies, why have they not considered trapping hens from an area of relative abundance and transfer them to an area with suitable habitat which is struggling? I think genetic stagnation may be a more significant factor than has been wildly considered.
Going to get back on subject for a minute - KENTUCKY LIMITS. Having lived in KY from 1995 - 2004 I may have been there during the peak of KY turkey success. Living within sight of LBL I hunted it through its short season and never struck out. The limit in the KY portion of LBL was always one. Many hunters were selective and, although legal, jakes were usually safe. KY established one of the best Telecheck systems in the country so anyone can see if the actually harvest numbers have plummeted state wide and if there should be real concern. Take a look at KY Telecheck and make up your own mind. IMO there are many ways various states can slow these declines. Number one is later opening days. Through the late 1990s you heard a consistent whining about opening the season earlier rather than later so "we can hunt when they're gobblin' good". Ohio a prime example. I started turkey hunting in Ohio in the 1970s and got almost tired of hearing this. Ohio was doing a fairly good job until this year when they went with the insane Saturday opener which effectively added an extra weekend to the season. IMO there are lots of little things that can be done but one giant problem is racoons which should be treated like rats. Fun stuff even if I can only take one bird instead of two. Any state still with a three bird limit is fooling themselves.
Quote from: silvestris on June 12, 2021, 02:04:29 AM
When the minds passing the time at the agencies, why have they not considered trapping hens from an area of relative abundance and transfer them to an area with suitable habitat which is struggling? I think genetic stagnation may be a more significant factor than has been wildly considered.
I have thought about genetic stagnation as well and would like to hear
what biologists have to say about this.
Quote from: snoodcrusher on June 10, 2021, 07:34:13 PM
In the 1990s and early 2000s there were far fewer predators in the WV woods. Coyotes and bobcats were not firmly rooted in most of the state and only a fraction of coons roamed the landscape compared to these days. 40 to 50 years of nearly year round killing of coons by coon hunters had kept the coon population under control and nest predation by them at a minimum. The strong fur market fueled coon harvest in the season and dog training by fanatic houndsmen kept the pressure on coons in the off season keeping their numbers in check. Trappers also helped in this endeavor when fur prices were robust.
As it stands now, coon populations have exploded, in huge part due to less places to hunt with hounds, a nearly nonexistent fur market, and only a fraction of coon hunters there were back then due to many other reasons.
Bobcats and coyotes are commonly seen now in the daylight hours when neither are most active.
And further, just as a personal observation, I cannot ever remember seeing more birds of prey as I do currently. Owls and hawks of all types are more present than ever in the locations I hunt and on the farm where I live.
These high numbers of predators must certainly have an impact on brooding and nesting success and recruitment. Throw in opossums, crows, and domestic cats and it's not difficult to understand the tough road young turkeys must overcome to adulthood.
Perhaps predation isn't the main cause of turkey decline but I believe it is one of the major components that need to be addressed. Foothold traps, live traps, dog proof traps, and hound hunting can put a large dent in the coon population rather quickly. Seasoned trappers can effectively thin the coyotes, foxes and bobcats in an area as well. I acknowledge there's nothing that can be done about owls and hawks but crows can be killed easily with electronic calls and a box of shotgun shells.
These steps may not restore turkey numbers to the heights of the good old days but it will without a doubt produce better results than sitting on a forum bitching, moaning, and crying in your beers about the current state of things. These attempts certainly won't hurt anything and will provide opportunity to be outdoors.
In my lifetime I've certainly done my part in the realm of raccoon harvest. All the trucks at a UPS hub couldn't haul the coons I've killed in my lifetime. A heart attack at 46 effectively ended my hound hunting for the most part but I still run a few traps, call in several coyotes per year, and takeout all the known non-protected nest predators I come across. My point is that I try to practice what I preach and my place has kept a solid turkey population while other farms not far away have declined. I encourage others to give it a try.
This is spot on! I have relentlessly trapped coons and possums on our small piece of ground and have caught over 300 in 3-4 years. That's unbelievable. I've also watched Cooper's hawks come in and clean up poults like you wouldn't believe. We had 42 poults hatch successfully a few years ago. By august we had 7 remaining poults. So all the trapping of nest predators was helpful but the aerial predators knocked them way back. It was so frustrating. Now we have an explosion of coyotes and bobcats to contend with. One thing that I think will help is the growth in popularity of thermal night vision predator hunting. I'm liking that people are catching on and getting into that.
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Predator hunting/reduction should be number 1 effort to help turkeys. In the glory days of turkey, '90-'00 there where very low coyotes numbers east of Mississippi River. Trapping for raccoon, opossum and fox was still a thing but not any more.
I feel that lowering harvest #'s can never hurt. Also makes it less appealing for non-resident hunters if they can only harvest 1 vs 2.
2 things that can never be overcome.
One is loss of hunting habitat. Which drives more hunters into smaller hunting areas.
Two is Raptors, way more hawks now days.
Agree 100% on the predator issue.
I have seen more nests that were raided/destroyed by predators in the last 3 years, than I saw in the previous 20 years.
Quote from: joey46 on June 12, 2021, 06:08:34 AM
Going to get back on subject for a minute - KENTUCKY LIMITS. Having lived in KY from 1995 - 2004 I may have been there during the peak of KY turkey success. Living within sight of LBL I hunted it through its short season and never struck out. The limit in the KY portion of LBL was always one. Many hunters were selective and, although legal, jakes were usually safe. KY established one of the best Telecheck systems in the country so anyone can see if the actually harvest numbers have plummeted state wide and if there should be real concern. Take a look at KY Telecheck and make up your own mind. IMO there are many ways various states can slow these declines. Number one is later opening days. Through the late 1990s you heard a consistent whining about opening the season earlier rather than later so "we can hunt when they're gobblin' good". Ohio a prime example. I started turkey hunting in Ohio in the 1970s and got almost tired of hearing this. Ohio was doing a fairly good job until this year when they went with the insane Saturday opener which effectively added an extra weekend to the season. IMO there are lots of little things that can be done but one giant problem is racoons which should be treated like rats. Fun stuff even if I can only take one bird instead of two. Any state still with a three bird limit is fooling themselves.
I agree. This 3 bird limit in my state is getting ridiculous too.
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Quote from: HookedonHooks on June 10, 2021, 10:43:47 AM
Reducing bag limits would also lead to the inevitable, unreported harvest. How many guys that have shot two turkeys on their own private land are going to just up and stop killing a 2nd bird on their own land that may have sustainable to excellent turkey numbers because the state told them so?
Sure it'll slow down public land harvest, but those guys will continue to kill two on their private lands because they like hunting and they like to eat turkey.
Kansas is prime example of this, and I bet if you asked around small town bars during turkey season how they felt about the bag limit reduction from 2 to 1, they might just tell you they'd already shot three this year.
I dont believe that is a true statement. Only people I know that were pissed about the bag limit reduction were outfitters. Those same outfitters said this was the toughest year they have ever seen. Lots of turkey hunters I know here were unsuccessful this year. Might be a few rogue hunters still shooting more but they were going to do it regardless of the bag limit. I live here and own property and wont be buying a tag next year.
Quote from: EastKyGobblerSlayer on June 11, 2021, 11:03:56 PM
This year was a record harvest statewide here in KY.
Male. Female Total.
28961. 232. 29193
If that's what they say is the best option to continue forward I'm for it. I think there are plentiful reasons for the numbers changing nationwide, predator numbers and increased hunter pressure being a great part of that. We have a 1 Buck limit as well for deer.
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Not the record harvest...
Quote from: Roost 1 on June 12, 2021, 02:47:11 PM
Quote from: EastKyGobblerSlayer on June 11, 2021, 11:03:56 PM
This year was a record harvest statewide here in KY.
Male. Female Total.
28961. 232. 29193
If that's what they say is the best option to continue forward I'm for it. I think there are plentiful reasons for the numbers changing nationwide, predator numbers and increased hunter pressure being a great part of that. We have a 1 Buck limit as well for deer.
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Not the record harvest...
Absolutely right after I read more into it, I've corrected and noted my error in my previous post.
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Quote from: Howie g on June 10, 2021, 08:00:44 PM
Quote from: snoodcrusher on June 10, 2021, 07:34:13 PM
In the 1990s and early 2000s there were far fewer predators in the WV woods. Coyotes and bobcats were not firmly rooted in most of the state and only a fraction of coons roamed the landscape compared to these days. 40 to 50 years of nearly year round killing of coons by coon hunters had kept the coon population under control and nest predation by them at a minimum. The strong fur market fueled coon harvest in the season and dog training by fanatic houndsmen kept the pressure on coons in the off season keeping their numbers in check. Trappers also helped in this endeavor when fur prices were robust.
As it stands now, coon populations have exploded, in huge part due to less places to hunt with hounds, a nearly nonexistent fur market, and only a fraction of coon hunters there were back then due to many other reasons.
Bobcats and coyotes are commonly seen now in the daylight hours when neither are most active.
And further, just as a personal observation, I cannot ever remember seeing more birds of prey as I do currently. Owls and hawks of all types are more present than ever in the locations I hunt and on the farm where I live.
These high numbers of predators must certainly have an impact on brooding and nesting success and recruitment. Throw in opossums, crows, and domestic cats and it's not difficult to understand the tough road young turkeys must overcome to adulthood.
Perhaps predation isn't the main cause of turkey decline but I believe it is one of the major components that need to be addressed. Foothold traps, live traps, dog proof traps, and hound hunting can put a large dent in the coon population rather quickly. Seasoned trappers can effectively thin the coyotes, foxes and bobcats in an area as well. I acknowledge there's nothing that can be done about owls and hawks but crows can be killed easily with electronic calls and a box of shotgun shells.
These steps may not restore turkey numbers to the heights of the good old days but it will without a doubt produce better results than sitting on a forum bitching, moaning, and crying in your beers about the current state of things. These attempts certainly won't hurt anything and will provide opportunity to be outdoors.
In my lifetime I've certainly done my part in the realm of raccoon harvest. All the trucks at a UPS hub couldn't haul the coons I've killed in my lifetime. A heart attack at 46 effectively ended my hound hunting for the most part but I still run a few traps, call in several coyotes per year, and takeout all the known non-protected nest predators I come across. My point is that I try to practice what I preach and my place has kept a solid turkey population while other farms not far away have declined. I encourage others to give it a try.
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. This fella sees it the same way I see it .
well said
Lowering limits and not killing hens in the fall season is a positive in our state. I wish they would make Jake's off limits also.
Travel for Merriams and Rios is always a treat I'd hate to give up.
Could you link the article? I can't find anything about ky going to one bird limit? I would love to see them get rid of the fall season and only allow jakes to be harvested by youth hunters
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[/quote] I live here and own property and wont be buying a tag next year.
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Sorry to hear that.
So the state that will not stop the shooting of hens in the fall, allows all non residents over the counter tags goes ahead and reduces spring hunting opportunity for everyone. ( Now I do think that non-resident landowners, those that hunt on family or relatives farms should still be allowed).
Quote from: Kygobblergetter on June 13, 2021, 12:05:01 PM
Could you link the article? I can't find anything about ky going to one bird limit? I would love to see them get rid of the fall season and only allow jakes to be harvested by youth hunters
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It was just a suggestion.... If you wanna hear the whole thing go to KDFWR JUNE 4th meeting on YouTube.
FRANKFORT, Ky. (WTVQ) – Disease, predators and poor property management are taking their toll on two of the state's most popular game animals...
And it has the group responsible for managing the state's hunting and fishing rules worried.
...
"We're going to be making some really hard changes like Arkansas has, or Louisiana is talking doing or Tennessee has done. I mean these states are at the point where it is kind of like a crisis mode..."
...
The board will consider some recommendations next month and also develop programs to help land owners better manage their wildlife, especially wild turkeys, which are falling prey to bobcats, coyotes and other predators.
Quote from: topnotch on June 12, 2021, 08:59:17 PM
Lowering limits and not killing hens in the fall season is a positive in our state. I wish they would make Jake's off limits also.
Travel for Merriams and Rios is always a treat I'd hate to give up.
Making jakes off-limits helps save more than just the jakes. It will also
stop people from shooting at a red head without seeing the beard.
The flip side of this is how many people will still shoot at a red head,
and if it's a jake just leave it laying there.
Close down Spring Turkey Hunting at the " Land Between The Lakes" for 1 Spring since that is a Mecca for out of state Spring Turkey Hunters.
Quote from: topnotch on June 12, 2021, 08:59:17 PM
Lowering limits and not killing hens in the fall season is a positive in our state. I wish they would make Jake's off limits also.
Travel for Merriams and Rios is always a treat I'd hate to give up.
Are hens really an issue? I believe there are several hens in my home state. Not advocating the harvest of fall hens, but is that really the root cause of anything? I see several hens without poults in my area each and every year. Poult and nesting predation big factors in this issue. Habitat loss another. Private land is being chopped up and sold off for small acreage home sites. I missed an opportunity to buy a small block myself. Only 6 acres but it was a thicket area that joined our 54 acre farm. Now it's being cleaned up for a home site. And yes it was a nesting place for turkey. Big farmers also want to clean every square inch of their fields as well. No edges or cover in those fence rows. I see that every day also.
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Quote from: Cowboy on June 15, 2021, 05:05:07 AM
Quote from: topnotch on June 12, 2021, 08:59:17 PM
Lowering limits and not killing hens in the fall season is a positive in our state. I wish they would make Jake's off limits also.
Travel for Merriams and Rios is always a treat I'd hate to give up.
Are hens really an issue? I believe there are several hens in my home state. Not advocating the harvest of fall hens, but is that really the root cause of anything? I see several hens without poults in my area each and every year. Poult and nesting predation big factors in this issue. Habitat loss another. Private land is being chopped up and sold off for small acreage home sites. I missed an opportunity to buy a small block myself. Only 6 acres but it was a thicket area that joined our 54 acre farm. Now it's being cleaned up for a home site. And yes it was a nesting place for turkey. Big farmers also want to clean every square inch of their fields as well. No edges or cover in those fence rows. I see that every day also.
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Hey cowboy. There seems to be a lot of issues all leading to the same thing. It also seems that we can only do so much to try help.
In this case of the hens , in my opinion anyway, that the more we have = 1. Don't shoot them. 2. Try to protect them by doing what we can. The better chance they have to reproduce.
Maybe in the case of saturation , the more hens we have nesting the better chance they have of escaping those predators.
Anytime you allow hens to live and not be shot it has to help. Sometimes there are hens who are very successful at hatching a nest and raising the poults. If that hen is shot because she has a beard or is shot in the fall you are potentially eliminating many many future turkeys. In my opinion no hen should ever be shot. That is especially true right now, in a time when we all seem to agree that turkey populations in many areas are struggling and declining. Every hen counts because any hen could be the very best hen in that area when it comes to a successful nest and beyond.
What of all states lowered non residents to just 1 bird?
Prostaff member for Old Crow Custom Calls
Agree a non-res limit should be one in any state having this population crisis. One isn't a bad idea crisis or not. Just a imo.
:newmascot:
Quote from: joey46 on June 16, 2021, 08:42:56 AM
Agree a non-res limit should be one in any state having this population crisis. One isn't a bad idea crisis or not. Just a imo.
I agree but there are a lot of people who are greedy and don't check their birds in and shoot over the limit.
Quote from: MISSISSIPPI Double beard on June 16, 2021, 09:31:00 AM
:newmascot:Quote from: joey46 on June 16, 2021, 08:42:56 AM
Agree a non-res limit should be one in any state having this population crisis. One isn't a bad idea crisis or not. Just a imo.
I agree but there are a lot of people who are greedy and don't check their birds in and shoot over the limit.
agreed
the reduction to one bird for non res would lighten up the pressure on some states for some people that are destination states
I like the fun of the hunt. I do not need a lot. But a bird now and then would not hurt. New York has cut back the fall season and a 1 bird spring limit would not hurt my feelings. Just saying.
Any updates?
I have been hunting a limited access area for the past four years, and the turkey numbers are increasing in these woods