Kentucky Limits

[TonyTurk]

If we really want to reduce hunter effectiveness, then ban turkey calls, camouflage, and firearms too.
Make everyone call with their natural voice, wear hunter orange, and use archery equipment.

Once the bans start, where do they stop?

I understand your point, I'm just saying that this would be more effective than reducing bag limits.

Another thing they could do if they could get all of the states together
would be to have 3 opening days across the country.
Southern states could open on April 1st, central states could open on
April 15th, and northern states could open on April 30th. That would
eliminate hopping around and hitting a bunch of different opening days.

I'm just trying to throw ideas out there because neither I nor anybody
else really knows what they should do.

I don't really care if they do anything. That was why I said it'll probably
fix itself. There will be less hunters and less turkeys, just like it used to be.
I'm ok with that.

TonyTurk - do you have any ideas about what they can or should do?

I really like the idea of the three opening date across the country that you proposed.  I also wouldn't mind seeing the first 7 days of a season being open for residents only.  Give the local guys first crack before the out of staters.  Also would not be opposed to some sort of limited-entry draw for the more popular public areas. 

[WV Flopper]

 I think there are a few places where we can improve the regulations we have, overall.  We do not need more regulation IMO.

WV moved their season up one week just to stop the pressure from in state hunters. There was NO research on this, only looking at bordering states dates. That was the only research done on this.

It was determined that we (WV) would gain monies from Nonresidents license sales with an earlier start date. Done deal! When this took effect, local turkey killers cried. Myself included! We lost one of the best weeks of season in some areas of the state (Geographic Regions). Three years of crying and we got our last week back, but the week on the front end stayed! Now we have a season that last seemingly forever.

I will ask this question, in states that have a split season (Early starting dates in sections) how many residents flood the earlier starting are each year?  I have wished WV would do this for years, many years. But, I think public ground would get flooded with people, and what kind of hunting experience is that?

I do think we have several issues currently with our population. I also think SOME areas have reached and passed their carrying capacity. Seems like it would be an exciting time to me to be a turkey Biologist, lots of angles and stuff to look at.
We all should not lay down, but we should let the professionals do their job. Yes, we may need to help them along the way as well.

[snoodcrusher]

https://wvmetronews.com/2021/06/08/dnr-2021-spring-gobbler-harvest-figures-released

2021 WV harvest figures attached


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[snoodcrusher]

2021 WV harvest down over 10% in spite of an additional week of hunting season added. 


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[Dtrkyman]

Have not yet been to KY.  At least they are being proactive, nothing like waiting until it's too late!  Lowering limits surely won't hurt as far as population.

And for the guys talking about shooting over limits, those guys already are!

[fallhnt]

Did anyone who replied read the OP thread?

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[snoodcrusher]

In the 1990s and early 2000s there were far fewer predators in the WV woods.  Coyotes and bobcats were not firmly rooted in most of the state and only a fraction of coons roamed the landscape compared to these days.  40 to 50 years of nearly year round killing of coons by coon hunters had kept the coon population under control and nest predation by them at a minimum.  The strong fur market fueled coon harvest in the season and dog training by fanatic houndsmen kept the pressure on coons in the off season keeping their numbers in check.  Trappers also helped in this endeavor when fur prices were robust. 

As it stands now, coon populations have exploded, in huge part due to less places to hunt with hounds, a nearly nonexistent fur market, and only a fraction of coon hunters there were back then due to many other reasons. 

Bobcats and coyotes are commonly seen now in the daylight hours when neither are most active. 
And further, just as a personal observation, I cannot ever remember seeing more birds of prey as I do currently.  Owls and hawks of all types are more present than ever in the locations I hunt and on the farm where I live. 

These high numbers of predators must certainly have an impact on brooding and nesting success and recruitment.  Throw in opossums, crows, and domestic cats and it's not difficult to understand the tough road young turkeys must overcome to adulthood. 

Perhaps predation isn't the main cause of turkey decline but I believe it is one of the major components that need to be addressed.  Foothold traps, live traps, dog proof traps, and hound hunting can put a large dent in the coon population rather quickly.  Seasoned trappers can effectively thin the coyotes, foxes and bobcats in an area as well.  I acknowledge there's nothing that can be done about owls and hawks but crows can be killed easily with electronic calls and a box of shotgun shells. 

These steps may not restore turkey numbers to the heights of the good old days but it will without a doubt produce better results than sitting on a forum bitching, moaning, and crying in your beers about the current state of things.  These attempts certainly won't hurt anything and will provide opportunity to be outdoors.

In my lifetime I've certainly done my part in the realm of raccoon harvest.  All the trucks at a UPS hub couldn't haul the coons I've killed in my lifetime.  A heart attack at 46 effectively ended my hound hunting for the most part but I still run a few traps, call in several coyotes per year, and takeout all the known non-protected nest predators I come across.  My point is that I try to practice what I preach and my place has kept a solid turkey population while other farms not far away have declined.  I encourage others to give it a try.


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[Howie g]

In the 1990s and early 2000s there were far fewer predators in the WV woods.  Coyotes and bobcats were not firmly rooted in most of the state and only a fraction of coons roamed the landscape compared to these days.  40 to 50 years of nearly year round killing of coons by coon hunters had kept the coon population under control and nest predation by them at a minimum.  The strong fur market fueled coon harvest in the season and dog training by fanatic houndsmen kept the pressure on coons in the off season keeping their numbers in check.  Trappers also helped in this endeavor when fur prices were robust. 

As it stands now, coon populations have exploded, in huge part due to less places to hunt with hounds, a nearly nonexistent fur market, and only a fraction of coon hunters there were back then due to many other reasons. 

Bobcats and coyotes are commonly seen now in the daylight hours when neither are most active. 
And further, just as a personal observation, I cannot ever remember seeing more birds of prey as I do currently.  Owls and hawks of all types are more present than ever in the locations I hunt and on the farm where I live. 

These high numbers of predators must certainly have an impact on brooding and nesting success and recruitment.  Throw in opossums, crows, and domestic cats and it's not difficult to understand the tough road young turkeys must overcome to adulthood. 

Perhaps predation isn't the main cause of turkey decline but I believe it is one of the major components that need to be addressed.  Foothold traps, live traps, dog proof traps, and hound hunting can put a large dent in the coon population rather quickly.  Seasoned trappers can effectively thin the coyotes, foxes and bobcats in an area as well.  I acknowledge there's nothing that can be done about owls and hawks but crows can be killed easily with electronic calls and a box of shotgun shells. 

These steps may not restore turkey numbers to the heights of the good old days but it will without a doubt produce better results than sitting on a forum bitching, moaning, and crying in your beers about the current state of things.  These attempts certainly won't hurt anything and will provide opportunity to be outdoors.

In my lifetime I've certainly done my part in the realm of raccoon harvest.  All the trucks at a UPS hub couldn't haul the coons I've killed in my lifetime.  A heart attack at 46 effectively ended my hound hunting for the most part but I still run a few traps, call in several coyotes per year, and takeout all the known non-protected nest predators I come across.  My point is that I try to practice what I preach and my place has kept a solid turkey population while other farms not far away have declined.  I encourage others to give it a try.


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.  This fella sees it the same way I see it . 

[dzsmith]

This thread begs the question:

What percent of overall turkey harvest is from hunters harvesting 2+ birds?

Would be interesting to see this data on a state-by-state basis!

i.e. if most of overall harvest is by hunters harvesting just 1 bird, then restricting bag limits to 1 bird obviously doesn't put much of a dent in the overall harvest and is just more of a political/PR/equity stunt...

it's pretty low in my state. Like less than 20% even kill multiple birds and less than 10 tag out. So we killed 9000 this year roughly . Down from 12k last year and 13 the year before. So around a 1000 birds would be spared by the 10% who tag out , and you have to consider 50% of the 20% who kill multiple birds are the 10% who tag out. So let's just say another 500-1000 birds are saved . In the end , while it would help some , it doesn't seem to be part of the problem. I am that 10%..... and even though it wouldn't matter much.... I would be happy to see a reduction in the bag limit personally. Makes me a hypocrite I guess .

[owlhoot]

Going to a 1 bird limit in every state wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.

If the harvest of gobblers is timed correctly (after all the hens are bred), you could in theory harvest every single gobbler in the entire state, and the jakes this year would do the breeding the following year (as 2-year-olds).

So, IMO, it is more an issue of timing the harvest rather than enacting stricter limits...

I agree,...but that entire premise was based on continuing reproductive success in any give turkey population over time.  We are seeing increasing concern that some regions are experiencing too many consecutive years where that population recruitment is not keeping up with the gobbler harvest that is taking place on a yearly basis.  Again, there reaches a tipping point where that has to be taken into account. 

...And again, the solution lies in addressing the issue of reproductive success, but until that happens, the only recourse is to reduce gobbler harvest or go back to supplementing bird numbers artificially where needed (i.e...transplants).

I like the transplants idea. Restocking seems to have gotten this whole population boom going. Lets get it going again .
Also comparison of how long the restocking was started- stopped before population in that state started to decline compared to states that have stable or increasing population. Tackle that one.

[owlhoot]

2021 WV harvest down over 10% in spite of an additional week of hunting season added. 


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Seems to be that the 2020 season had a lot if increases in a lot of states due to covid shutdowns increasing hunters numbers and extra time in the field.
Then the 2021 season in those states had a decrease in harvest.
Could this be a sign of increasing harvest leaving not enough for a good harvest the next year or more ? 
Guess we will see in 2022.

[EastKyGobblerSlayer]

EDIT: I incorrectly listed this as the record harvest. It is the second lowest since 2011. I had read an article during season which stated we were on track to beat last years but it didnt end up that way.

This is the record of harvest statewide here in KY for the spring 2021 season.

                      Male.   Female   Total.                     
                     28961.  232.       29193

If that's what they say is the best option to continue forward I'm for it. I think there are plentiful reasons for the numbers changing nationwide, predator numbers and increased hunter pressure being a great part of that. We have a 1 Buck limit as well for deer.

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[silvestris]

When the minds passing the time at the agencies, why have they not considered trapping hens from an area of relative abundance  and transfer them to an area with suitable habitat which is struggling?  I think genetic stagnation may be a more significant factor than has been wildly considered.

[joey46]

Going to get back on subject for a minute - KENTUCKY LIMITS.  Having lived in KY from 1995 - 2004 I may have been there during the peak of KY turkey success.  Living within sight of LBL I hunted it through its short season and never struck out.  The limit in the KY portion of LBL was always one.  Many hunters were selective and, although legal, jakes were usually safe.  KY established one of the best Telecheck systems in the country so anyone can see if the actually harvest numbers have plummeted state wide and if there should be real concern.  Take a look at KY Telecheck and make up your own mind.  IMO there are many ways various states can slow these declines.  Number one is later opening days.  Through the late 1990s you heard a consistent whining about opening the season earlier rather than later so "we can hunt when they're gobblin' good".  Ohio a prime example.  I started turkey hunting in Ohio in the 1970s and got almost tired of hearing this.  Ohio was doing a fairly good job until this year when they went with the insane Saturday opener which effectively added an extra weekend to the season.  IMO there are lots of little things that can be done but one giant problem is racoons which should be treated like rats.  Fun stuff even if I can only take one bird instead of two.  Any state still with a three bird limit is fooling themselves.   

[Jimspur]

When the minds passing the time at the agencies, why have they not considered trapping hens from an area of relative abundance  and transfer them to an area with suitable habitat which is struggling?  I think genetic stagnation may be a more significant factor than has been wildly considered.

I have thought about genetic stagnation as well and would like to hear
what biologists have to say about this.