"Call Shy" and "Educated" seems to be something that gets brought up pretty regularly amongst turkey hunters and I just wanted to hear some opinions on birds being call shy and "educated".
I think I must be in the minority here, but I wonder if a bird can get "educated" enough to become truly call shy. My take on it is that there are naturally going to be birds that are more cautious than others... and not because they are "educated" by some kind of learned behavior from humans. Just like some bucks are more aggressive and dominant, so are some turkey and the more aggressive/reckless/vocal ones get culled out (killed by hunters) much more easily so by the end of the season, naturally, you got a lower % of turkey running around who are over-eager to race in to your call and what you're left with is more of the birds that were naturally cautious to begin with.
In other words, I believe that FOR THE MOST PART the reason we think its easier to kill 2 year olds than 3 year olds has less to do with the amount of "education" they recieve from that extra year of age and more to do with the fact that the easy birds get knocked off pretty quick in a heavily hunted area so the tight lipped birds are more likely to make it to the next year.
What say the old gobbler brain trust?
I think it is true, but for different reasons than most people think. I think they get educated if they come in to a call several times and never see a hen. They just give up and expect a hen to come to them.
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I think it is true, but for different reasons than most people think. I think they get educated if they come in to a call several times and never see a hen. They just give up and expect a hen to come to them.
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I would some what agree with that. Some birds are more vocal then others, but I do believe then can be educated by humans. IF I spook turkeys off the roost a few days in a row, they move. I've spooked them out of box stands while deer hunting and the next day they stare down the box. I can also drive a tractor right thru a flock and they only run a few yards off the field or road and as soon as I pass they come right back out. When I walk up on them they run or fly until I can't see them and seldom come back that day.
Not sure how much they can be educated, but truly think they can feel a presence of danger. I would have to believe that the same could be applied to birds that have be called to a lot.
As far as older birds verses younger birds being harder to kill, I believe it has less to do with education and more to do with the older birds having the hens. I think the younger birds have been chased away from the hens and are looking for action more then the older more dominate ones.
Quote from: dirt road ninja on February 24, 2012, 01:01:58 PM
Not sure how much they can be educated, but truly think they can feel a presence of danger. I would have to believe that the same could be applied to birds that have be called to a lot.
x2 and this is what I refer to as call shy or educated birds, maybe a bad choice of words but its what im referring to when I speak of them.
Pressured is a more applicable word I feel than call shy or educated.
The throaty loud mouth birds on heavily hunted ground are the first to have their neck stepped on.
Quote from: dirt road ninja on February 24, 2012, 01:01:58 PM
I would some what agree with that. Some birds are more vocal then others, but I do believe then can be educated by humans. IF I spook turkeys off the roost a few days in a row, they move. I've spooked them out of box stands while deer hunting and the next day they stare down the box. I can also drive a tractor right thru a flock and they only run a few yards off the field or road and as soon as I pass they come right back out. When I walk up on them they run or fly until I can't see them and seldom come back that day.
Not sure how much they can be educated, but truly think they can feel a presence of danger. I would have to believe that the same could be applied to birds that have be called to a lot.
I do agree that they can learn, to some extent, what does and doesnt represent a threat to them if they experience it enough times. I think your example of bumping a roost day after day is a good example.
I think "call shy" is a little different in that I dont know how often they really associate that with humans where as bumping them off the roost by what they can clearly identify as humans a lot of times. I dont know that a bird that you work and never get a shot at (or bump in any other way) gets call shy or learns anything from that experience because he never sees something to identify as danger to associate with a the calling and I dont feel like they are intellegent enough to piece the puzzle together and avoid calling because of education. Now, you may have some bad callers out there that dont sound enough like a turkey to get them interested but for the most part, i think it's just a turkey being a turkey. I've seen plenty of real hens calling from one side of a field to a gobbler on the other side and the gobbler, at that point in time, not be interested for whatever reason.... stage of the breeding cycle, territorial issues/afraid of a more dominant gobbler in the area, has hens with him already etc. Because he's in a field, I can see the lack of response, even to a real hen, but if you couldnt see him and it was a person doing the calling instead, there's plenty of guys ready to write that lack of response off to being "call shy" or "educated" and i dont think that has anything to do with it in most cases.
Call shy and educated. Fiction, also known as excuses.
As long as your calling is natural, I don't believe turkeys are per se "call shy." I think it is merely a conclusion that a lot of people jump to without knowing the circumstances.
In other words, sounding like a hen is only one phase of turkey calling. I don't believe this is the phase that makes gobblers wary. I think what makes them wary is the location of the calling, progression of the season, lack of visual confirmation, and unrealistic decoy movement just to name a few.
For example, you are setup in the woods and calling at a gobbler. He responds and seems to be moving closer to you. And, as we've all experienced, he hangs up either out of sight or out of gun range. There could be several reasons for this. The primary reason is biological- the hen is supposed to come to him. At this point, he knows the hen is aware of his presence. If she is "receptive" then she would go to him. If she doesn't show, then he likely realizes he is wasting his time and moves on to find another hen willing to play the game. We do the same thing- if we know a gobbler has hens and isn't interested in our calling, we know we are wasting our time calling to him despite the fact that he gobbles every time we call.
It's similar to deer hunting. Mature bucks are only after does in estrous. A mature buck could care less about an unreceptive doe that looks pretty standing in a field. Whereas younger bucks will be out pesturing her, the older bucks keep cruising until they find one ready to breed.
With turkey hunting, just because a hen yelps or cutts doesn't mean she is willing to breed. The same yelping and cutting will get a gobbler's attention, but if she doesn't come to him, why should he search her out and pesture her when he knows he is unlikely to "get any." He's better off moving to the next hen.
The scenario is the same evern if he sees your lone hen decoy. If he knows she can see him strutting, but doesn't act like she's interested, why try to win her over when there are plenty of hens ready and waiting?
This explains a common biological occurence in which gobblers are commonly perceived to be call shy.
However, I do believe that there are several scenarios that do put a gobbler on notice, but not because of your actual calling. All turkeys have two things in common: they are constantly moving, and they make a lot of noise scratching for food in the woods. The only exception to this general rule is during the incubation period.
In simpler terms, it is very unlikely that a hen will stand in place for an extended period and without scratching in the leaves. Sometimes gobblers hang up not because they expect the hen to come to them, but because they don't hear the usual commotion that is associated with hen talk. This is merely a theory, but I have overcome several hung up gobblers by simply raking leaves to sound like a scratching hen.
Another factor in the equation is simply the mood of the gobbler. He may not want to put in the extra effort to seek you out.
In short, I don't believe it is the fact that you sound like a hen that makes them wary. I have a hard time believing that gobblers know the difference between a real hen and a turkey call (with some exceptions pertaining to the user and where he is familiar with certain hens). I believe more commonly than not, it's the circumstances surrounding your calling that tips your hand- not simply the calling itself.
i dont believe they are call shy so much as human shy. i think that some birds have the ability to avoid humans from contact with them, seeing a hunter move, being shot at, and called to with the same type call day after day. i also think they are just so moody that on the right day they will run you over after not responding on the previous day.
I have encountered several birds on hard hunted public land that will turn the other way as soon as you let loose a series of yelps. They will continue gobbling, but turn completely away from you and walk off. If this is considered call shy, then yes, I'd say there are call shy birds.
But on the same note, those birds can be killed by calling...Tone it down, just cluck/purr/scratch, no yelps. I can never recall turning a turkey by just clucking or purring. So technically that bird may just be shy to certain vocalizations that it hears all the time from other hunters....
However, I have went in on some mid-day/afternoon hunts on these same birds and had them come right in, acting completely different than they did first thing that morning. I guess I feel apt to call it "conditioning". They hear so many turkey calls from other hunters in the morning, but rarely hear it any other time of day...A "call shy" bird can be made to look like a fool if you catch him at the right time.
I've done a lot of hunting on open public land that is as pressured as it gets. I know that towards the end of the season on one place hearing a bird gobble is rare and they don't get all killed out cause I would still see plenty of fresh strutting signs on the sandy roads every day.
Another place as the season goes on, they would still gobble good early morning off the roost, but pay absolutely no attention to a call. They wouldn't gobble back at my calling, but just keep gobbling as they were. Like if the only way they were going to do business is for you to come to them. Course there's always an occasional hot gobbler that sat up on a limb all night long thinking about it that will come in like it's the first day.
Quote from: guesswho on February 24, 2012, 02:32:43 PM
Call shy and educated. Fiction, also known as excuses.
X2
A lot of what people hear and see is directly related to the different phases of the breeding cycle, then interpreted as call shy, educated, unkillable ect. Most people I've hunted with approach all phases of the season the same way, in reality a different calling tactic might be needed. The more successful people I've hunted with seem to understand this. I guess for some people it's just easier to come up with excuses than it is to figure out whats really going on.
Quote from: guesswho on February 24, 2012, 06:45:25 PM
A lot of what people hear and see is directly related to the different phases of the breeding cycle, then interpreted as call shy, educated, unkillable ect. Most people I've hunted with approach all phases of the season the same way, in reality a different calling tactic might be needed. The more successful people I've hunted with seem to understand this. I guess for some people it's just easier to come up with excuses than it is to figure out whats really going on.
If he doesnt come to my squeeling hen call. He is unkillable. I dont care what you say. ;D
:TooFunny: Probably so!
WHy I got you one here. WHat's your tip for killing a gobbler that will gobble a few times on the roost and then shuts up when he flies down?
Well, on hard pressured land, if turkeys are so stupid as to not know something is going on after seeing and hearing so many hunters walking around making turkey noises...a lot of turkey hunters need to take some feathers out of their hats.
Quote from: Shotgun on February 24, 2012, 07:43:43 PM
WHy I got you one here. WHat's your tip for killing a gobbler that will gobble a few times on the roost and then shuts up when he flies down?
He more than likely has hens close by. Return later in the morning after the hens have left him and he may be getting lonesome.
Quote from: Shotgun on February 24, 2012, 07:43:43 PM
WHy I got you one here. WHat's your tip for killing a gobbler that will gobble a few times on the roost and then shuts up when he flies down?
My tip would be to pm me the gps coords so I can check out the situation, then I'll pm you a game plan. ;D
Quote from: guesswho on February 24, 2012, 08:04:12 PM
Quote from: Shotgun on February 24, 2012, 07:43:43 PM
WHy I got you one here. WHat's your tip for killing a gobbler that will gobble a few times on the roost and then shuts up when he flies down?
My tip would be to pm me the gps coords so I can check out the situation, then I'll pm you a game plan. ;D
:lol:
Labels used to describe Henned up birds.
Call shy and educated are a real condition but the next day he may run over you.
Flyrodder
Quote from: 2ounce6s on March 06, 2012, 08:22:11 PM
Quote from: hoyt on February 24, 2012, 07:54:28 PM
Well, on hard pressured land, if turkeys are so stupid as to not know something is going on after seeing and hearing so many hunters walking around making turkey noises...a lot of turkey hunters need to take some feathers out of their hats.
Good post and true. IMO there are call shy and educated turkeys. Mostly due to conditioning from hunting pressure. Public land has more of it in my experience. A lot of subordinate tom behavior is blamed on call shy and education though. On average the difference in a 2 year old tom and a 3 year old tom is about as drastic as the difference in a 1.5 year old buck and a 3.5 IMO. I know a lot of fellows who have no trouble killing big old toms on low pressured prime land but can't cut a feather on well hunted public land. Ditto for deer. They are as smart as you make them and when you think you know it all about them you are fixing to be humbled.
What he said. I can take some of my buddies who only hunt private land to some hard hunted areas here in OK and they can't kill squat.
I think it's a bunch of bull. I hunt only public land, and I have hunted the same turkeys day after day and they will do the same things every morning. Fly down and shut up, gobble his brains out until 7:30 then shut up, Gobble every breath while walking away then shut up. Then you go back one morning and he pitches down and walks right in. Or you go back at 11:00 and strike a call and he answers you and you make another call and he tries committing suicide while running to you. Boys it's all about the time of season. When he answers you but won't come closer more likely than not he has hens and has no reason to come to your party unless he feels that another tom is gonna get to you first. Now i do think that if you call one up and blaze away at him and he runs off with powder burns, that he is going to be tougher to kill but not unkillable. Just need a different approach the next time. I have missed turkeys and they run to the next hillside and go back to gobbling, crossed over to him and he comes right in. I think every bird is different and they will all act different to each scenario, but i dont think they get call shy, if they did there wouldn't be anymore turkeys because they wouldn't ever go to a hen and breed, hens call all day every day. I agree with pressure to an extent but not call shy.
I think it was Lovett Williams that said he doesnt believe birds ever get "call shy."They depend on their vocalizations to communicate and if they became call shy, they'd never breed. More so, they become hunter shy. They notice if we are intruding into their world, esp if they had to dodge a load of shot. As long as ur calls sound passably realistic, and u call in natural tones and cadences, turkeys will believe you are another turkey. They simply lack the ability to rationalize it any further, but they will definitely get spooky due to human presence in the woods. JM2C
I have observed Toms that I have got into position on and could visually see out in a field and as soon as I start calling they would run the other direction. This was with suttle calling even. Any conclusions to that scenario?
Quote from: talltines on March 08, 2012, 08:30:18 AM
I have observed Toms that I have got into position on and could visually see out in a field and as soon as I start calling they would run the other direction. This was with suttle calling even. Any conclusions to that scenario?
Without hearing you call it's tough to say.... :toothy12:
In all seriousness, it could depend on the particular bird. Pecking order has quite a bit to do with how birds live their lives and I've seen gobblers be so whipped by other gobblers that they constantly looked like they were looking over their shoulder and at the first sound of another male turkey, they were out of there. Not saying you were doing this but some folks hen calls can have more characteristics of a Gobblers vocalizations when yelping or clucking... Again, it's hard to say without being there but it could be that your cadence (gobblers seem to be slower cadence and have a little deeper pitch that's hard to describe) made him think he was intruding on another, more dominant, tom.
The other this is that if you can see them, they can usually see you too. He may have saw something he didnt like and gone the other direction.
This is a great thread! I must say I see both sides of the fence here. But just like somebody else said, when you think you have it all figured out, get ready to be humbled again. That's why I love this sport! You actually have to get involved and put yourself both mentally and physically in the situation. I've heard many ole timers compare turkey hunt to playing a game of chess. Always trying to consider two or three plays ahead. I do know that the more information you know about the turkeys you hunt the better.
Jonathan
I always look forward to this discussion on just about every forum,..every spring. ...Same old stuff... real turkey calling, fake turkey calling,..good callers, bad callers,...heavy pressure, light pressure,...public land birds, private land birds,...yada, yada, yada,...on and on and on. It's make for great conversation, discussion, and opinion.
At some point, though, all of it has to be based on FACT. ...And here, once again, are the facts. All organisms, including turkeys, can be "conditioned", if you will, to respond in certain ways to certain stimuli. That conditioning can be based on positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement.
In short, a turkey can and will "learn" to associate turkey calling with danger if it has enough negative encounters or experiences with "unconfirmed" turkey calling that it hears. The more a turkey is hunted and experiences negative consequences when it approaches a turkey-like sound, the more likely it will be to stop approaching turkey-like sounds, whether they are articial or real,...unless there are other positive stimuli involved which override that individual turkey's fear of the consequences of approaching a turkey-like sound.
To suggest that turkeys do not have the brain-capacity to learn to associate any turkey calling with danger, and therefore avoid it, is, simply put, going against the overwhelming evidence of scientific fact. Period. The End.
Im not sure how anyone could pretend to have the definitve answer on this topic. Even the real "experts" are divided on the topic. All i can say is i live and hunt in an area that is traditionally recognized at turkey hunting at its most difficult. Pennsylvania, with its public land and a whole slew of turkey hunters. These birds get hammered by calls and some are just plain bad. They get shot at, busted off the roost, and just plain harrassed during turkey season. Yet they still gobble as much as turkeys i hunt elsewhere, depending on timing and weather, and i manage to find a few kamikaze ones every year. I dont always have to call like an old timer once in two hours, scratch in the leaves or bushwack one. They still come to the call and i'm certainly no pro circuit calling champion or an indian in the woods. All i can say for sure is it makes a handy excuse if i fail. :D
Here's my arguement....
I think that there are some turkey that are just born to be less aggressive/responsive to calling than others, just like some are naturally more dominant and some are naturally more submissive. Some are NATURALLY, less vocal and some are naturally more cautious.
Even if you were talking about a wild flock of turkey that NEVER seen or heard another human during their time on this earth, there would be some that are just born less vocal, less dominant/more dominant, less spooky/more spooky.
My theory is that by the end of the season on public ground or hard hunted private, there are NATURALLY more of the subordinate, less vocal, less agressive turkey still walking the woods because the ones that sound off and charge in to calls tend to get shot more quickly due to the number of hunters in the woods. So by seasons end, every one say's YEP, they have been educated...and maybe some have but from a numbers standpoint, it might have more to do with the fact that the loud ones got themselves thinned out early on and you're stuck hunting what's left. Same thing with the ones that make it to be 3 and 4 year olds on hard hunted property....YES they are harder to hunt than a loud mouthed 2 year old but is it because they have had so many encounters that they have been educated or because they, again are just naturally quieter than some of the other birds you might find?
Everyone wants to use public/hard hunted birds as an example so I'm going to do just the opposite. I got on a lease about 6 years ago that was loaded with turkey and hadnt been hunted (according to the land owner) in 6 years prior to us getting on the lease. I mean it was 5000 continuous acres of turkey hunting heavan.... I can just about guarantee that NONE of these turkey had ever heard a turkey call from a human prior to me stepping foot on the property. Anyhow, the second day of the first season, I killed the biggest bird I've ever taken in my 20+ years of turkey hunting and he came in completely silent after what must have been an hour of trying to circle/check out the situation and looking like a whipped dog watching for something to jump out and whoop his azz. He had to be a 4 year old with the hooks he had. Point being, if I had killed this bird on public land and told the same story, a lot of guys would have told me about how this bird had been educated in to acting like that because he was call shy.
In this particular case, I can dang near promise you that no one had hunted this bird during his time on earth and I would almost be willing to be that the reason he was acting the way he was is as simple as him being the low man on the totem pole in the area and he didnt want the ol boss gobbler to jump out and beat on him for trying to get some action. As big as he was, he was naturally submissive acting and less vocal than 90% of the rio's that I've taken and I doubt education had anything to do with it.
Also, i'm not saying birds CANT learn after some amount of repetition... I just think that most of the time it's just turkey being turkey.
We hunt these things by calling and then shooting what comes in so naturally, the ones that are more willing to come to the call get culled out first. The ones that are naturally more cautious/less aggressive live longer....educated or not.
Great post!
Quote from: hoyt on February 24, 2012, 07:54:28 PM
Well, on hard pressured land, if turkeys are so stupid as to not know something is going on after seeing and hearing so many hunters walking around making turkey noises...a lot of turkey hunters need to take some feathers out of their hats.
Some have earned those feathers, others get them just like a lot of people aquire a lot of things, they buy them
Quote from: 2ounce6s on March 06, 2012, 08:22:11 PM
I know a lot of fellows who have no trouble killing big old toms on low pressured prime land but can't cut a feather on well hunted public land. Ditto for deer. They are as smart as you make them.
Agreed. I know roughly ten or twelve people who turkey hunt around here. Two of them are going to kill birds if there are birds on the property be it prime private or hard pressured public . The others are going to kill birds early when theres more of the two year old class running aroung begging to die.
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 07, 2012, 05:00:03 PM
I can take some of my buddies who only hunt private land to some hard hunted areas here in OK and they can't kill squat.
That sounds more like uneducated turkey hunters than educated and call shy birds. I'd bet my next paycheck that the two guys I mentioned above could go in there and spend three days and each would kill a bird if the place actually has birds. Out of the ten or twelve that I know who turkey hunt around here two of them will tell you call shy and educated birds is nothing more than an excuse or an ego bandaid. The other ten will be in complete agreement that there are call shy and educated turkeys. Dang, I'm starting to see a pattern. It's not a 100% but I've noticed more less successful turkey hunters on the call shy side of the fence vs. visaversa.
Explain this senerio. You call a turkey over a ridge so you can see him at 30 to 40 yards. When he comes over the ridge you have seconds to kill him or he is gone cause he dont see a hen. How does he associate this with danger if he has no concept of humans,calling etc.
I believe turkeys can learn to some degree. Call shy I dont believe exist.
I'm probably talking more about gobblers that quit gobbling from the roost than call shy per say. But I know for a fact they will shut down on one WMA I hunted in Fl..not all of them, but it would get to where you were lucky to hear a gobble from the roost towards the end of the season. It wasn't because they were nearly all killed out or henned up either, because as I posted earlier you would see fresh strutting sign every morning on the sandy roads and most of the hens are on the nest late in the season. Gobbling should be more instead of less at this time.
The place I'm talking about was bombarded with locals close to the area every day starting way before the season, blowing every kind of shock gobble call made.
It has so many woods Rd's you can't get 300yds from one and they all get vehicle traffic even on into the season. But it's a jam up place to turkey hunt if you get the first wk of quota hunts...lots of turkeys.
Far as public and private...it's just how hard the place gets hunted. Don't take but a few hunts close together to make killing turkeys harder.
The best example I know of is on another WMA in Fl. late in the season gobbling would get real slow. However, every time I wanted to make about a 5mi. bike ride into a no vehicle area that butted up to a no hunting area..it would sound like a barn yard over there with all the gobbling going on.
When I lived in Florida all I hunted down there was WMA's. From the mid 60's until I moved in 93, so roughly 25 years or so. I noticed a decrease in gobbling toward the end of the season as well. I always wrote it off to there being less birds, plus their breeding season being over for the most part. You would see strut marks ect. but most of the birds I killed during this peoriod would ball up for a couple steps then come out of strut and grab a bug or something. Food at this point in the season pretty much took priority over breeding. They were more interested in eating and getting back together in bachelor groups than they were the hens who had very little interest in them as well, thus less gobbling and less responsive to hen talk.
Quote from: 2ounce6s on March 08, 2012, 01:07:09 PM
Quote from: redleg06 on March 08, 2012, 12:01:42 PM
Anyhow, the second day of the first season, I killed the biggest bird I've ever taken in my 20+ years of turkey hunting and he came in completely silent after what must have been an hour of trying to circle/check out the situation and looking like a whipped dog watching for something to jump out and whoop his azz. He had to be a 4 year old with the hooks he had. Point being, if I had killed this bird on public land and told the same story, a lot of guys would have told me about how this bird had been educated in to acting like that because he was call shy.
Basically (IMO) you are relating an experience just like I was talking about when I said earlier in this thread that "subordinate tom behavior is often times percieved/blamed on "call shy" or educated". Size doesn't always matter with turkeys, it's the meanest bird who is the boss. I raised turkeys as a kid, yeah they weren't wild strain but they still possessed many of the same characteristics as wild turkeys when it comes to pecking order.
I've also hunted private land turkeys that were tough as hell to kill, sometimes harder than public land birds. Generally speaking though, private land toms gobble a heck of a lot more where I hunt in upstate SC.
When folks start appying human thought processes, emotions and reactions to turkeys they are only "outsmarting" theirselves. When they start talking about how "dumb" they are I have to start questioning their experience hunting truly pressured birds. Sure you can kill kamakazi toms on public land, there's a regular turn over rate of uneducated birds as long as there is recruitment. A 3+ year old tom is generally gonna be the hardest bird to kill on pressured land and I don't think anyone will deny that. You take that same bird and find he only squeezes out a few gobbles because every time he does three hunters run at him or he's caught a load of 6's in the arse a time or two and you've surely found one that can be "call shy" and "educated".
Much of my opinion has been formed around the fact that most of the hardest to kill turkeys I've taken over the years turned out to have healed over pellets in their rump or breast. Again, my experience has been limited to the piedmont of SC over 30 years hunting turkeys.
I think some of the arguement comes in because it looks like I'm trying to argue that private/ unpressured birds are just as tough to kill as highly pressured birds and that's not the case. I think the pressure DOES make it much more challenging and I've hunted both private and public and even some private that has more pressure than most good places.
My talking point is really WHY is it that high pressured birds are more difficult to kill? Is it largely because of "education" by hunters because turkey are more intellegent than we give them credit for OR is it because Mother nature and the good lord naturally made some turkey to be born more cautious, less vocal, less aggressive etc than others so it turns into a numbers game over the course of a season or two on hard hunted land?
Here's a Hypothetical:
If you take 9 Gobblers (all of the same age, and all with the exact same level of "education", or lack their of, and all living on the same piece of highly pressured land) and divided them into 3 categories, which ones will be likely to survive to next year and which are likely to die opening weekend to average joe turkey hunter?:
Category A) Kamakazi Bird - Extremely Territorial, Possibly the most dominant bird in the area and has first pick of breeding rights or at the very least not afraid to challenge for them....he is not afraid to gobble his head off, walk to find the ladies and generally isnt afraid to let his presence be known in the area. (This guy is the easiest to Kill In My opinion and about any decent hunter can bag him)
Category B) Just your Average Spring Turkey- Not overly vocal, not afraid to go to a hen, but also not going to sprint in to the first call he hear's in the morning and just toss caution to the wind. He'll gobble but he's usually going to quiet down as the day wears on and will occasionally crank it up and get loud. (This is just your average turkey)
Category C) Subordinate Tom- afraid of his own shadow, doesnt want the other gobblers to know he's even in the world, MAY gobble a few times in the tree but rarely from the ground. Doesnt want to travel far to a hen and if he does, he's not going to be vocally letting his presence be known while he does it. ( I think your average hunter either runs and guns past this turkey because he doesnt respond, gets impatient and bumps him because he did sit quite long enough, or bumps him while moving from set up to set up without ever knowing it because this turkey is quiet and on high alert most of the year anyway. Also, this bird doesnt gobble as much on the limb or during the day so, as a result, he draws less attention to himself from hunters.... all the hunters are running and gunning to try and find gobbler A.
I think NATURALLY (as in not a result of education or pressure- they are just born that way) there are going to be birds that fall under these categories just like some dogs, deer, humans, etc etc etc all have a mind of their own and as a result, on heavily pressured land, the bird in category A are the first to die and then category B because they attract the highest amount of attention to themseleves, while the bird in category C is going about his business without making much noise. So, by the end of the season Group A is getting thinned out, group B is starting to take some hits and what you're left with is category C because they are the ones that didnt run in and get themselves shot as quickly..... Well, then if my theory is right, it only makes sense that the category C gobbler is also the most likely one to become a 3 or 4 year old turkey because, again, he is the last one to get culled out.
That doesnt mean there arent some instances where a gobbler gets shot at enough to where they cant learn but I just generally feel like most quiet bird on highly pressured hunting land are as a result of survival of the fittest - in this case the fittest being option C because he didnt naturally draw as big of a crowd of predators to him during the season.
We hunt these birds for 6-8 weeks a year... I just dont know that they have the capacity (in most cases) to put it all together in that limited amount of exposure. Hell, I've watched turkey come to a barb wire fence (not even a high fence) and be absolutely baffled by how to get around it.... and they live there 365 days a year and have crossed it lord knows how many times before....maybe even earlier that same day. But they get to it and it absolutely blows their minds.... That's why, by and large, I just dont know how much of these birds getting call shy and educated is as much of a factor as some folks think. Again, not saying that it isnt more difficult to bag a bird on highly pressured land vs low pressured land...I just dont neccessarily agree with logic as to why that may be the case.
There are exceptions to every rule but there have been days (you can shoot all your tags in one day in Tx if you want to) where I've called in and killed turkey from the same group, using the same call, within hours of one another. If you guys have ever hunted in some of the plains states, you might have 5-10 or more gobblers all roosted in the same tree cause they dont have many to choose from so when the fly down, they usually come in in groups. If they were readily call shy, I dont know that we'd ever kill any after the second or third week of the season out there cause I got to figure that most of them have played witness to watching some of their buddie's heads getting blown off at least once or twice before...
This is from the S.C. Department of Natural Resources and might explain why so much gobbling was going on across the fence in the "no hunting zone" during late season when not much was going on in the WMA.
By the first week in April the nesting phase of the wild turkey breeding period is underway. During this time hens will lay one egg per day until the clutch is complete. In South Carolina most of the laying is done in about two weeks, therefore, most hens begin incubation during the first half of April. When the majority of hens begin incubation gobbling begins in earnest. Remember, male turkeys gobble to attract hens. During peak breeding hens are available, therefore, little gobbling takes place. Once hens begin spending increasing amounts of time away from the gobblers (extended stays at the nest and ultimately continuous incubation) the longest and most consistent peak in gobbling occurs. This time frame offers the best opportunity to hunt gobbling birds.
The only point I'm making is that gobbling from the roost in a couple of WMA's I hunted in Fl. almost stopped towards the end of the season and that it wasn't because they were dead. Also everything I have ever read about gobblers gobbling towards the end of the season when hens are scarce is that they gobble more.
However, I have never personally seen that to to be the case on hard pressured land...just the opposite...less gobbling.
To prove my point I used the scenario of birds gobbling their heads off on one side of the fence (no hunting area) and shut mouth on the other side (hard pressured). Even though on the hard pressured side of the fence there was fresh strut sign every morning. The roads are sandy and you could see tracks where they would walk out of the woods and strut in the roads. Lots of them.
Quote from: hoyt on March 09, 2012, 07:19:01 AM
The only point I'm making is that gobbling from the roost in a couple of WMA's I hunted in Fl. almost stopped towards the end of the season and that it wasn't because they were dead. Also everything I have ever read about gobblers gobbling towards the end of the season when hens are scarce is that they gobble more.
However, I have never personally seen that to to be the case on hard pressured land...just the opposite...less gobbling.
To prove my point I used the scenario of birds gobbling their heads off on one side of the fence (no hunting area) and shut mouth on the other side (hard pressured). Even though on the hard pressured side of the fence there was fresh strut sign every morning. The roads are sandy and you could see tracks where they would walk out of the woods and strut in the roads. Lots of them.
Well, from my Florida WMA experiences, if they keep gobbling much on the roost, they are going to get shot at on the roost. We probably hear more roost shooting down there than we do shots at birds on the ground. I imagine that along with a few stray pellets will give them the incentive to remain hush mouth most of the time.
Great thread -thanks. I always learn a ton from this type of discussion.
I'm not offering any answers, just tossing my 2 cents into the discussion, asking for your thoughts and how it applies to hunting.
Here are my assumptions.
#1 priority of a turkey (or any organism) is survival.
Under the umbrella of survival comes the general: food, water, shelter (this is a given).
Also under the umbrella of survival (in no particular order) comes: flocking instinct, reproduction, alertness to danger, individual traits (dominant, subordinate, etc). IMO here's how I see flocking instinct, reproduction, alertness to danger, individual traits interacting with each other.
Flocking instinct. Pretty straightforward (gregarious). A member of the flock may signal discomfort or alarm at a situation caused by a hunter or other predator. The hunter may not even see this bird, but others of the flock are put on the alert. Tough to hunt this bird(s) at this time.
Reproduction. The different stages of the breeding season, time of day and need to roam looking for available hens (as already mentioned). Some individual gobblers are less careful than others in their reproductive manners and will sprint headlong into a face-full of lead. Other individuals will be very cautious -circle out of sight from where the call originated or just move to a hidden advantage point to spy things out before committing to gun range. PERHAPS (I can't say with any authority), but perhaps a cautious gobbler will wait and read the reaction of other turkey or wildlife to possible dangers.
Anyway... My premise is survival, under which the other categories fall. If gobblers are not experiencing a bout of uncontrollable "hormone rage" or the competitive juices are not flowing (trying to out-shine his cousins) or not being just plain careless, then even the "smell" of danger in the field (IMO) will cause shyness and beak lock when he's on the ground.
Anyway X2, I think the general theme is survival. This is how I systematize the behavior of gobblers when I try to hunt 'em. They are survivors.
Thanks for indulging me on this topic. Any thoughts are welcome.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on March 09, 2012, 09:30:23 AM
Quote from: hoyt on March 09, 2012, 07:19:01 AM
The only point I'm making is that gobbling from the roost in a couple of WMA's I hunted in Fl. almost stopped towards the end of the season and that it wasn't because they were dead. Also everything I have ever read about gobblers gobbling towards the end of the season when hens are scarce is that they gobble more.
However, I have never personally seen that to to be the case on hard pressured land...just the opposite...less gobbling.
To prove my point I used the scenario of birds gobbling their heads off on one side of the fence (no hunting area) and shut mouth on the other side (hard pressured). Even though on the hard pressured side of the fence there was fresh strut sign every morning. The roads are sandy and you could see tracks where they would walk out of the woods and strut in the roads. Lots of them.
Well, from my Florida WMA experiences, if they keep gobbling much on the roost, they are going to get shot at on the roost. We probably hear more roost shooting down there than we do shots at birds on the ground. I imagine that along with a few stray pellets will give them the incentive to remain hush mouth most of the time.
If I didn't hear shots before daylight I'd think I was in the wrong WMA.
I'll tell you something else they do in the one WMA that doesn't have gates. Kids will get in there at night and turn their trucks at a 90 degree angle with the sandy main roads and just spin the tires and make a hole almost a foot deep. You really need to keep your eyes on the road.
I made this post in th General Forum, but will reply here as well.
MS !!
Got in tight this am with him gobbling like crazy!
75 yards out, I say nothing. He pitches dow at 40 to 45 yards slight to my right. He is walking with a purpose, but not spooked. He goes behind some large pines and I ease my gun into position. I find him in the scope, make a a 3-4 not soft yelp to stop him for the shot, and he is gone!!!
BEEP BEEP!!!!
Road Runner Style!!! :newmascot:
But he's not call shy? He's just not in the mood!!!
:TooFunny: :TooFunny:
Quote from: K9Doc on March 25, 2012, 10:07:20 PM
I made this post in th General Forum, but will reply here as well.
MS !!
Got in tight this am with him gobbling like crazy!
75 yards out, I say nothing. He pitches dow at 40 to 45 yards slight to my right. He is walking with a purpose, but not spooked. He goes behind some large pines and I ease my gun into position. I find him in the scope, make a a 3-4 not soft yelp to stop him for the shot, and he is gone!!!
BEEP BEEP!!!!
Road Runner Style!!! :newmascot:
But he's not call shy? He's just not in the mood!!!
:TooFunny: :TooFunny:
I read that post in the general forum and wanted to find out more about yall's wild turkey over there in that area. I've hunted other public/ pressured areas and seen birds shutdown gobbling activity because of hunters crowding and spooking them as they bumble around in the woods or unknowingly bump them while walking around calling and making noise, but never seen one just flat out panic over a turkey call... or at least not one that could be recognized as a turkey call. But then again, I've never hunted these Mississippi birds you speak of...
In mississippi, the birds arent scared or "call shy" of gobbler's vocalizations (gobbling) but are deathly afraid if they hear a hen (even the softest 3-4 note yelp)?
Are they call shy of other turkey talking to each other or can they just tell the difference between a hunter calling to them verses a real hen?
It could be the same anywhere i think. I am hunting Noxubee National Wildlife Regufe, located only 15 minutes from Starkville, MS and Mississippi State University.
Lots of college guys hit this area very hard all season. People in MS grow up hunting and fishing, more so than most states. It's in their heritage and in their blood!!!
This place really gets a lot of pressure year after year. I dont think this bird would have been difficult to kill the first day or two. Now however, he has likely been called to , shot at, and bumped off the limb, ect.. more than once. He wants to see a hen and she better not be talking a whole lot. He's not smart, he's just got very good survival instincts.
Turkey's Brain:
I am in the tree gobbling. No hens calling and nothing comes under my tree. I fly down and suddenly she yelps at me? Not cluck or purr. Yelps!! He knew something was wrong cause it probably happen a week or less ago.
I should have said nothing or only clucked sofltly.
He is conditioned to survive!!!
Hindsight is 20/20. My bet is that no matter what turkey sounds you made at that bird, you would have seen the very same reaction from him. That is why he is still around! But that is why we keep hunting them. Next time you try something different and hope that it works....
:newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot:
Quote from: K9Doc on March 26, 2012, 09:31:39 AM
It could be the same anywhere i think. I am hunting Noxubee National Wildlife Regufe, located only 15 minutes from Starkville, MS and Mississippi State University.
Lots of college guys hit this area very hard all season. People in MS grow up hunting and fishing, more so than most states. It's in their heritage and in their blood!!!
This place really gets a lot of pressure year after year. I dont think this bird would have been difficult to kill the first day or two. Now however, he has likely been called to , shot at, and bumped off the limb, ect.. more than once. He wants to see a hen and she better not be talking a whole lot. He's not smart, he's just got very good survival instincts.
Turkey's Brain:
I am in the tree gobbling. No hens calling and nothing comes under my tree. I fly down and suddenly she yelps at me? Not cluck or purr. Yelps!! He knew something was wrong cause it probably happen a week or less ago.
I should have said nothing or only clucked sofltly.
He is conditioned to survive!!!
I just moved to Tuscaloosa this year so I can relate to the college crowd.
That being said, (and this is just my personal opinion) I just dont buy the "call shy" theory but I do think increased human presence will spook the birds enough to slow down gobbling activity and make them act more spooky than they would have been otherwise....depending on the amount of pressure or activity in the area, it could drastically change how they act if they are bumped and spooked day after day all season long.
I've hunted public and private in my home state of Texas for years and I got the pleasure of experiencing an opening day/weekend here in Bama for the first time.
True Story from the opener in Bama this year (public land)....yall tell me what happened:
I hear a bird gobbling and realize he's roosted fairly close (about 100-150 yds) to a well traveled road and there are a number of hunters within ear shot. This bird is one of only two that I hear gobbling and I'm sure that he'll have other hunters surrounding him shortly so I try to get in a position behind him and call him away from the road because he is roosted at the end of a ridge point where the road makes a "U" shape. The bird flys down and is slowly working my way when i start hearing other "hens" moving in from different direction. He is gobbling, but not much and I'm not calling much (he probably gobbled twice in the tree and another time or two once he hit the ground). About this time I see a truck driving on the road down around the "U" in the road and I hear him pull over and get out on the gravel road and then I hear a sound that was either a crow call or a Caribou in Distress....not sure which, but of course, the turkey sounds off to it. It was such a unique and terrifying sound that I almost shock gobbled too.... The next sound is this guy shuffling around and shutting his door. The woods were wide open and you could hear a pin drop out there and I have no doubt the turkey could see what was going on, to some extent. Anyhow, I'm assuming the guy starts moving in to the woods cause I stopped hearing gravel and then I hear him let loose with some more interesting sounds from his box call.... This time he gets no response. I never heard or saw that turkey the rest of the morning or until I had to be out of the woods at 1p.m.
Was this turkey "call shy" or was he "idiot that made godawful noises from the road/truck then bumbled into the woods" shy ?
I bet if we had the opportunity to stop and ask that guy what happened, he'd tell us about how that bird was just a smart old call shy gobbler or that he was just educated from year's of folks calling to him.
K9doc, that story isnt a shot at you so I hope you dont take it that way or comparing you're situation to the one I just gave. I just feel like, most of the time, when turkey arent responding to calls or are acting spooky while calling is going on, it's not because they associate turkey calls with humans/danger. They may be with real hens or maybe they saw something they didnt like, maybe the pressure in general has them boogered up, maybe the caller isnt making sounds that resemble a turkey, etc etc etc. I have seen subordinate toms run the other direction from strutting toms because they dont want to get whooped. If you gobbled at that type of turkey or maybe even made a sound like a gobbler yelp, who know's how it would react. There's just any number of reasons why turkey do what they do and I think very few times, are these birds reasoning their way to a decision....like being call shy and associating humans with turkey calling.
They'd have a hell of a time breeding if every gobbler in the area flipped out and ran away like a scalded ape at the sound of another turkey in the woods. If that were the case, how would the real hens communicate with the gobblers? Are they keen on this call shy stuff too and just have an understanding that if they want to find them a old longbeard to breed with, the only way to do it is ONE cluck, maybe a quiet purr (but not a long one ), and no yelping or other vocalizations between shooting light (better check the old wrist watch) on March 15 and Sunset on May 1? :TooFunny: :TooFunny:
No one get your panties in a wad over this, I'm just having fun with this :OGturkeyhead:
I have called up what I believe to be the same gobblers that were shot at by others the weekend prior to my encounter. They both still came to the call, would gobble in answer to the call, but would not break the 60 yard mark and circled my position. These occasions were years appart in separate states but both Eastern varieties. I think they learned something but I never got the chance to ask them. I can still see those birds today. I can only hope they died a slow death for the torment they caused me all these years.
Quote from: 2ounce6s on March 27, 2012, 08:54:34 AM
Don't assume that I think every tom that gets sprayed suddenly becomes "all knowing and omnipotent". Far from it. All I am saying is the bumping a tom and the times he survives getting shot at can in no way make him easier to kill. Who knows what truely goes on in that pecan sized brain. It's my opinion they usually just get sharper with age and experience.
It's hard to disagree with a man that uses words I cant even begin to pronounce :TooFunny:
I do agree that the pressure of getting bumped repeatedly does affect how turkey act. My problem with it is that I just dont believe they are intellegent enough to associate calling with humans and avoid calling.
In other words, a turkey who has been bumped or even shot at 3 days in a row is likely going to be more "on edge" than one that has never seen a human before. The pressured bird is more likely to be less responsive to calling because he's wary of humans being in the woods, but that doesnt mean he's used a logical thought process to decide that humans are responsible for turkey sounds and that he should then avoid turkey sounds.
I dont believe that a hunter that is a good caller is scaring turkey by his calling...now, he may bump the bird when he walks in to set up on him and that turkey is, all the sudden, much less likely to come to the call than he would have been if he hadnt just been bumped. I think this is what happens a lot of times and gives the impression of "call shy". Guys bumble around the forest making racket and not really looking where they are going and they bump a lot of turkey that they never had any idea where in the area. Then they wonder why they cant get one to answer them when they set up or one acts spooky when they do call and all the sudden you have reports of a "call shy gobbler" when all you really have is a situation where the bird saw you before you knew he was in the area and he didnt come in as a result.
I think that both are true. I've been chasing gobblers for 45 years and have hunted in 17 states. There's no question to me that they can become "educated".. I don't think anyone who has spent enough time chasin' em' would argue that or that they don't become call-shy in a hurry on public or open land that gets lots of people about everyday of the season. Those two terms "call shy and educated" are caused by hunting pressure in my opinion. On private land things can be completely different and that land just might be across a road from a pressured area and gobbling over there is non-stop all season long. I've killed lots of old long spurred toms by hunting close to those private clubs and lands, calls go across the lines with no problem and during that last couple of weeks when the hens are sitting they sometimes walk off their safe area in search of hens. I've seen some that even know the sound of certain calls and by switching calls causes them to come right in. I remember one who learned to roost at the head of a tram road/field meeting..if you walked on that road no matter what time off night you'd chase him off the roost, even hours before sunrise, he learned the sound of humans walking...my son killed him by walking in the woods and going around to the other side. So, I think both are true, but caused only by hunter pressure.
If a bird becomes call shy, no one would ever kill a bird on public ground after opening day.
Quote from: 2ounce6s on March 27, 2012, 04:48:19 PM
Sure you can. I do every year. Those very same toms that the run and gunners can't raise a gobble from with loud aggresive cutts from the same old spot they hammered from the week before, and the week before, and the week before. It's all about angles and less about complaining about toms "that don't act right".
You missed my point.
If turkeys can become "educated (or conditioned)," you are giving them a lot of credit for a pea sized brain.
If a turkey can become educated, he sure has a short memory. Why then would jakes messed with by hunters and preseason callers on public ground suddenly become our famous, reckless, loud mouth two year olds next year? And why would any so-called learned loud mouth two year old on public ground, who probably got shot at, bumped, and spooked a hundred times ever get killed as a three or four year old?
Did they forget what they learned last year?
Good post. " call shy" and "educated" means memory to me. If a gobbler or any turkey for that matter had a memory, they'd never fly down in season. Pressured birds just become more and more wary, it's their nature. Did you ever break up a young flock in the fall, kill one, scatter them and call them all in again for your partner? I have, think about it. Whatever, good conversation. :camohat: