Did I explain this right?

[LaLongbeard]

What's silly is finding the slowest lead loads to make a comparison. Here's Nitros velocities for TSS and HVY the HVY loads are faster or at most even with TSS( Nitros velocity is faster than Apex in same loads per each website).TSS does not have more energy with the smaller lighter TSS in equal velocity and especially if slower. The lead loads I shoot are faster and heavier per individual shot. Heavier by almost 3X and faster by 50-100fps and more energy period. That's 12 vs 12 gauge. The 20 is better than the 12 only if your talking  holes in paper. If  you  compare the  same velocity lead ,HVY ,TSS Turkey load the heavier shot will have more energy period. The 12 to 20 comparison the 12 will be 100 or so FPS faster shooting heavier individual shot



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LaLongbeard]

The other picture is too small to see


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paboxcall]

Whatever LA, you're simply not considering every variable, but posting pics of faster lead loads proves the physics point. Velocity is just one variable. So is density. Its physics. TSS can be slower because TSS's higher density helps maintain downrange energy. That's physics. Velocity times density equals momentum. That's physics. Its momentum you need to care about not just velocity. You are discounting what happens at 20, 30 and then 40 yards in your thinking from gravity, drag, etc.

To best understand the concept, and easier for the sake of the argument, is to make every variable equal, so to the point earlier let's use 2 ounces of #5 lead and 2 ounces of #9 TSS. Both loads weigh 2 ounces. They both exit the barrel traveling at the same speed at the muzzle 1,150 fps in the example. But very quickly the laws of physics take over - that's where things change. Rated muzzle velocity is just that, muzzle velocity. Sure, lead differences can be compensated by speed, but given all things equal, TSS is superior.

Speed is only one factor, and certainly not the only factor because density is just as equally important in the equation. This is also true comparing lead to steel. How do we compensate with less dense steel shot compared to lead? Add more velocity - that is the only way to make steel shot as lethal (at least theoretically) as a lead replacement.

Velocity and density are equally important because after the load leaves the muzzle, then individual pellet size becomes the major, inescapable determining factor - bigger pellets are more susceptible to forces of gravity, drag, compression, and ultimately friction loss. That is where TSS in its smaller diameter, hardness, and higher density wins.

If you want to go and add velocity to make lead better stand out, then great, mission accomplished. You can do that. Making lead faster in fact satisfies physics by compensating for it's less superiority in density, just like steel shot vs. lead. That added lead velocity helps keep downrange energy or momentum to catch back up with TSS because lead is less dense and must have larger pellets - it is why we don't hunt turkeys with #8 or #9 lead loads at 40 yards.

Go and theoretically make #5 or #6 lead 1,500 fps, and it will really wallop the target. But I'm not pulling that trigger. In lead you need larger pellet sizes and faster speeds to compensate for its lack in density compared to TSS. That's just physics.

In the end, lead velocity must be boosted and its individual pellet size must be increased to maximize downrange lethality. Steel is the same way. And for the average velocities in factory turkey loads out to 40 yards, TSS's physical properties makes it superior for minimizing drag, friction, which helps maintain speed over longer ranges and maximizes momentum. Its just physics. Disbelieve physics if you want by posting muzzle velocities, I don't care.

[LaLongbeard]

Whatever you want to believe.
Couple things to consider.
Momentum is mass x velocity not density they are not the same thing.
Your analogy about steel vs  lead does not help your case. The lighter steel has to be faster than the lead to have a chance at being as lethal. Steel shot is about 1/3 lighter than lead shot of the same size. Anyone that has ever used both on ducks knows the difference in a heavier individual shot.

Using the often quoted TSS #9 has the same energy as a lead #5 you have the same lead vs steel problem. At the SAME velocity the #9 does not have more energy not at the muzzle not at 40 yards. What happens in jello at 100 yards makes no difference to me and shouldn't to anybody that calls themselves a turkey  hunter.
    I posted the lead loads I use also Nitros TSS and HVY for comparison. Me using a high velocity lead load is about the same as you using the lowest lead load you can find to compare.
      Simple really comparing equal velocity a TSS 9 does not have more energy than a lead5 and surely not a HVY 5. If you can read ,clearly the Nitro loads ( and Nitro having higher velocities than most factory loads) are all faster or at most equal TSS vs HVY all of which are slower than the factory load I use in lead. If you start comparing factory TSS Federal for example the difference is even more pronounced.
     You can compare  opinions or factual numbers your choice

[paboxcall]

Density is the product of its mass and its volume. And that's what I said - to compensate for less mass, steel shot must be both larger and faster than lead, the only way to compensate for its inferiority compared to lead. And so goes lead, which must also be larger and faster to compensate for its physical inferiority to TSS.

What you discount, or just flat ignore, is larger shot size makes both steel and lead more susceptible to drag and gravity. That's a fact. So here is the thing: it is way less important how fast the load starts compared to how fast they arrive. That's the focus - was velocity preserved to maximize energy? Physics tells the story.

I'd rather shoot a smaller pellet with more mass than a larger pellet with less mass, or a larger pellet to achieve equivalency, simply to preserve momentum. Larger surface areas of larger pellets shed velocity faster. That's physics. Regardless I'm moving on, much like most people you interact with here.

You did make me chuckle admitting you disregard ballistic gel because it conflicts with your assertion - and no one said anything about 100 yards. Physics makes #9 TSS lethal at 40 yards, while physics prohibits its lead #9 sized equivalent from achieving the same. And lastly physics is why #9 TSS approaches and often exceeds terminal downrange performance of larger sized lead projectiles launched and sent downrange less efficiently. Appreciated the fun discussion though.

Whatever you want to believe.
Couple things to consider.
Momentum is mass x velocity not density they are not the same thing.
Your analogy about steel vs  lead does not help your case. The lighter steel has to be faster than the lead to have a chance at being as lethal. Steel shot is about 1/3 lighter than lead shot of the same size. Anyone that has ever used both on ducks knows the difference in a heavier individual shot.

Using the often quoted TSS #9 has the same energy as a lead #5 you have the same lead vs steel problem. At the SAME velocity the #9 does not have more energy not at the muzzle not at 40 yards. What happens in jello at 100 yards makes no difference to me and shouldn't to anybody that calls themselves a turkey  hunter.
    I posted the lead loads I use also Nitros TSS and HVY for comparison. Me using a high velocity lead load is about the same as you using the lowest lead load you can find to compare.
      Simple really comparing equal velocity a TSS 9 does not have more energy than a lead5 and surely not a HVY 5. If you can read ,clearly the Nitro loads ( and Nitro having higher velocities than most factory loads) are all faster or at most equal TSS vs HVY all of which are slower than the factory load I use in lead. If you start comparing factory TSS Federal for example the difference is even more pronounced.
     You can compare  opinions or factual numbers your choice

[LaLongbeard]

Velocity times density equals momentum. That's physics.

No that's what you said and that's not physics.

You are confused I think about the difference between mass and density they are not interchangeable.
In your last post you say a smaller pellet with more mass than a larger pellet with less  mass? Using the TSS 9 vs  lead 5 again the 5 has more mass ,yes the smaller TSS 9 is denser but that's not the same thing.
    I don't have anything specifically against TSS just don't understand why people continue to exaggerate it's weight and energy. If it really is killing turkeys at 50-80 yards why the need to exaggerate?
     For the last time simply. A heavier 2x heavier lead or heavy # 5 has more energy than a TSS #9 that's with the exact same velocity. I've shown you the only way you should be shooting a lower velocity lead or heavy shot load is because you specifically looked for one to buy. Most lead or HVY loads will be faster some a lot faster. So you have a heavier individual pellet going faster or the same velocity than TSS. Physics says that heavier pellet has more energy. Wind drag, pellet deformation gravity or hardness of tss pellets will not make up the difference at 50 yards or less. You had your comparison backwards it's the TSS that's playing catch up not the lead or heavy loads.
      There's really no discussion of you can't understand the facts. If you want to believe your 20 or 28 or .410 has more energy than a faster heavier shot thats fine but it ain't physics and it ain't real.

[paboxcall]

Fun discussion, but you're backwards. You need to go bigger to compensate, like a 10 or 12 gauge, 3" or 3.5" magnum load of 2 ounces or more of bigger sized lead to achieve the same pattern density achieved by a 20 gauge, 2.75" with 1 3/8th ounce of TSS. Fact. To break 300 in 10" at 40 yards, you need a lot of space for larger sized lead.

Saying TSS is compensating with smaller gauge barrels defies logic. The fact is smaller tungsten equals or exceeds the performance of its significantly larger lead counterparts. That's physics. Whether to your point #9 TSS is the equivalent of #5 lead or #6 lead or whatever is irrelevant. Its at least as good as either.

Why did the 3.5" 12 gauge hit the market? Steel shot. Needed larger payload of bigger pellets at a faster velocity to achieve what lead was doing more efficiently in a smaller payload. Now we're going the other way for turkeys - with TSS, more efficient, smaller payload. If TSS was suddenly banned, guess what, we'd all go back to our old Mossberg 835 and 10 gauge shoulder-mounted Howitzers launching bruising payloads of larger sized lead. No one is shooting big lead from 410s or 28 gauge guns. That's because of physics.

Never said anyone needs TSS. Matter of fact in my first post said at 40 yards #5 lead gets it done. #5 lead was my choice for many years. But then I went ahead and said TSS gives the shooter significantly higher pellet count per ounce, plus more mass, and you got a blistering, denser pattern at 40 yards compared to #5s. Like three or four times better.

All good. Each their own. I don't own shares in TSS. Keep shooting lead that's great. I'll carry a sub-gauge with TSS and that's great. If something happens to my little 20, I'll go back to my backup single shot with 3" Hevi #7s. Whatever the choice, same end result.

[LaLongbeard]

You need to go bigger to compensate

Saying TSS is compensating with smaller gauge barrels defies logic. The fact is smaller tungsten equals or exceeds the performance of its significantly larger lead counterparts. That's physics. Whether to your point #9 TSS is the equivalent of #5 lead or #6 lead or whatever is irrelevant. Its at least as good as either

Compensate for what? Lead or heavy is already faster and heavier. I never said anything about smaller gauge barrels compensation? Now you bring up pattern density that is a whole different discussion. Yes TSS will leave more holes on a piece of paper but each one of those tiny holes was made by a pellet half as heavy as a lead or HVY 5 going slower. The discussion is not about which puts more holes in paper or if the same Gobbler was shot at 40 yards with lead or TSS which would be deader. The point I'm making it seems like most people are just repeating the same WRONG information about the weight and energy of TSS vs lead or heavy shot. You keep bringing up steel shot. In your scenario steel would be the TSS it's lighter and going slower so it has less energy, that's why steel shot tried to up the velocity. If you get some #6 TSS and load it to 1300 FPS then you would have a superior load but at the cost of the pattern density so highly praised.

Saying TSS equals or exceeds the performance of lead or heavy shot is another false statement and physics the real kind proves it. And then you say it's irrelevant? Don't really know what else to say about that lol

[paboxcall]

but each one of those tiny holes was made by a pellet half as heavy as a lead or HVY 5 going slower.

[sasquatch1]

One other thing to throw into the equation, which I don't even grasp but trust the source it came from I believe "allaboutshooting", the faster a load starts off somehow equates to it slowing down faster too.

Example being a load that starts off at the muzzle 200fps faster may not be going 200fps faster at 40yds. I think the speed gap closes as distance is passed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[LaLongbeard]

I doubt seriously that a turkey load starting at 100 FPS faster will be caught by or surpassed in velocity over 120 feet. Even if it did ....IF you still have an individual pellet or shot that is 1/2 or more the weight of lead or HVY shot. Even if they started at the same velocity you STILL have the weight discrepancy and the TSS even IF it gained speed? After traveling 40 yards wouldn't have increased the speed enough to make up the difference in weight. 

[silvestris]

If one calls one close enough, dove loads will do the trick.

[Spitten and drummen]

I have shot lead , copper plated , Heavy shot and you name it in turkey loads and there is no doubt #9 Tss is awesome. You can spit out all the physics and all the equations you want but I like field results better than numbers on paper. If you are a TSS hater , have at it. Does not bother or influence me in anyway. You love lead , stick to lead but dont think for a single minute that lead flat outperforms TSS or even its equal because its not. Dead is dead as they say. I could kill whitetails all day long with my 243 but I enjoy doing it wit my 338 Win mag.

[LaLongbeard]

dint  think for a single minute that lead flat outperforms TSS or even its equal because its not.

lead or HVY in  the loads I shoot are both faster and heavier that's a fact. Other than pattern density I see no performance edge. Opinions are one thing but the facts are undeniable. I don't shoot past 40 yards and I don't see how twice as many smaller bbs would kill them deader. And non of this explains why so many people cannot understand the difference between weight and mass, energy and momentum. Even with the size and weight of every shot shell bb made available at the touch of a button some still cannot comprehend a TSS 9 does not weigh as much or even close to a lead or heavy 6, or 5. That's not an opinion
       For Everyone that touts the light weight of there sub gauge to a 12. What makes it lighter is the sub gauge less dense or does it have  less mass lol.

[LaLongbeard]

# 5 lead 2.60 grains per pellet
1300 FPS
9.75 ft lbs of kinetic energy

# 5 Heavy shot 2.74 grains per pellet
1200 FPS
8.75 lbs of kinetic energy

#9 TSS 1.2 grains per pellet
1200 FPS
3.83 ft lbs kinetic energy

That's physics