Did I explain this right?

[crow]

I was a #4 lead shooter and still do in certain guns.

I was a very hard sell to try the Fed HVWT #7s, finally started to hunt them and from my experience they out perform lead #4 for pure killing performance.  and HVWT #6's are just a hammer.

started hunting TSS #9s several seasons ago and in my experience with them they kill even better than the Fed. HVWT #7's and also lead #4's.

have also hunted with TSS #8 for several seasons and this spring hunted with TSS#7 for the last part of this season, both of them are flat out killers.

from practical hunting experience you would not have to load up TSS #6's at 1300fps to get a superior load. TSS #9's at 1150fps will do that.


the 10" is useful for pattern comparison, ballistic jell is useful for a starting point for penetration comparison.
From my experience with TSS #9's (and the other sizes) it performs better on game than it does in ballistic jell.

[paboxcall]

To be clear I don't care if you shoot lead. Don't care if your too cheap, you're stocked for years with lead loads, or whatever. Just don't tout falsehoods about lead being ballistically superior to TSS because its "faster and heavier" using single data points, because that is as silly as saying steel is better than lead.

And purposely omitting real world factors like time, distance, gravity, and drag? Really helpful. So, to your recent cherry picked data point, muzzle velocity, that is information one should only use for shooting turkeys point blank range. Of course that comes with the added plus of no stray shot in the breast meat and pre-cooking from powder burns, so good on you.

Muzzle velocity is just the beginning of the equation. What happens after the equal sign (=) in that equation - retained energy at 40 yards, not muzzle energy at zero yards - is what actually matters. That TSS ballistic gel that you refused to consider or acknowledge, because you didn't want to defend downrange reality, you didn't want to talk about gel tests "at 100 yards" because I guess you've seen it, couldn't explain it staring at simple muzzle velocity numbers, so let's just ignore it.

Here is the inescapable reality:

Bigger is not always better, because a larger object in flight incurs more drag from the air. That is a fact. Bigger pellets with greater surface area slow more quickly, and bigger pellets slowing quickly due to air resistance lose energy faster over time and distance. Only way to overcome this is go faster. But going faster has trade offs and limits, so smaller pellets with more mass are significantly less susceptible to drag over time and distance making them preferable.

Heavier - you're word, not mine - is not better because "heavier" is more influenced by gravity over time and distance than a smaller object. Again, fact. At the muzzle, doesn't matter, down range it matters a lot, try throwing a volley ball and a bowling ball. The "heavier" lead pellet will slow more quickly over time and distance, dissipating forward kinetic energy trying to overcome the effect of gravity compared to its smaller more dense counterpart. Only way to overcome this is go faster, but faster has trade offs and limits, especially on patterning.

As mentioned earlier in a post, really, really fast is not always better because the faster an object is launched the more quickly it slows over time and distance. Yet again, physics. That is why 1,500 fps steel shot really provides no significant net benefit over slower steel shot because of steel's lack of mass compared to lead.

What happens at the muzzle is just one puzzle piece, though important - its the energy imparted on the object to begin its flight. What actually happens both in flight and at the target at 40 yards down range factoring - not omitting as you do - air resistance and gravity is way more important than initial muzzle velocity, and what all ethical hunters should consider.

Will #5 lead do the job at 40 yards? Yep, but it must be both bigger and heavier to preserve energy and still overcome challenging losses from gravity and drag to get the same job done as smaller TSS.

What would one choose for hunting coyotes at longer distances? #4 lead or #4 TSS? Either or, but TSS is obviously far more superior retaining energy further down range than its lead counterpart of the same size, even with slightly dissimilar muzzle velocities. 

What should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards? #9 lead or #9 TSS? Obviously #9 lead is inferior and #9 TSS is far superior retaining energy down range because of its greater mass and hardness.

Now knowing #9 lead is inferior to #9 TSS because of mass, what should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards, a large payload of #5 lead or smaller payload of #9 TSS? Either or will do the job, but - big but here - because of physics lead must be bigger to get the same job done and be subjected to the laws of physics in route. Therefore TSS is more efficient than lead of equivalent, or even larger size, yet the end result is the same at 40 yards with #5 lead and #9 TSS. One punched tag.

But to my very first point many circular post responses ago...to believe single data points, like initial muzzle velocity printed on a cardboard box, tells you nothing about what's happening at 40 yards. One must consider time, distance, gravity and drag.

So, if you won't actually consider the whole story, and instead respond with snippets and pictures of individual puzzle pieces because at face value it seemingly makes some obtuse and incomplete point, well there really is no point continually trying to pop the bubble you obviously choose to live in. Really, go read the articles and research on Apex or other manufacturers, and watch load testing on youtube, do research and discover all the facts important to making a fully informed decision instead of wrongly stating things like 'faster, heavier lead' is superior to smaller TSS. It just isn't.

So again, if you need to have the last word, even when its not factual, have it. All good, I'm finished providing the rest of the story from what I learned as I went from lead to Hevi to TSS. Got better things to do than go circles over piecemeal, single data point, incomplete, nonsensical responses.

[crow]

To be clear I don't care if you shoot lead. Don't care if your too cheap, you're stocked for years with lead loads, or whatever. Just don't tout falsehoods about lead being ballistically superior to TSS because its "faster and heavier" using single data points, because that is as silly as saying steel is better than lead.

And purposely omitting real world factors like time, distance, gravity, and drag? Really helpful. So, to your recent cherry picked data point, muzzle velocity, that is information one should only use for shooting turkeys point blank range. Of course that comes with the added plus of no stray shot in the breast meat and pre-cooking from powder burns, so good on you.

Muzzle velocity is just the beginning of the equation. What happens after the equal sign (=) in that equation - retained energy at 40 yards, not muzzle energy at zero yards - is what actually matters. That TSS ballistic gel that you refused to consider or acknowledge, because you didn't want to defend downrange reality, you didn't want to talk about gel tests "at 100 yards" because I guess you've seen it, couldn't explain it staring at simple muzzle velocity numbers, so let's just ignore it.

Here is the inescapable reality:

Bigger is not always better, because a larger object in flight incurs more drag from the air. That is a fact. Bigger pellets with greater surface area slow more quickly, and bigger pellets slowing quickly due to air resistance lose energy faster over time and distance. Only way to overcome this is go faster. But going faster has trade offs and limits, so smaller pellets with more mass are significantly less susceptible to drag over time and distance making them preferable.

Heavier - you're word, not mine - is not better because "heavier" is more influenced by gravity over time and distance than a smaller object. Again, fact. At the muzzle, doesn't matter, down range it matters a lot, try throwing a volley ball and a bowling ball. The "heavier" lead pellet will slow more quickly over time and distance, dissipating forward kinetic energy trying to overcome the effect of gravity compared to its smaller more dense counterpart. Only way to overcome this is go faster, but faster has trade offs and limits, especially on patterning.

As mentioned earlier in a post, really, really fast is not always better because the faster an object is launched the more quickly it slows over time and distance. Yet again, physics. That is why 1,500 fps steel shot really provides no significant net benefit over slower steel shot because of steel's lack of mass compared to lead.

What happens at the muzzle is just one puzzle piece, though important - its the energy imparted on the object to begin its flight. What actually happens both in flight and at the target at 40 yards down range factoring - not omitting as you do - air resistance and gravity is way more important than initial muzzle velocity, and what all ethical hunters should consider.

Will #5 lead do the job at 40 yards? Yep, but it must be both bigger and heavier to preserve energy and still overcome challenging losses from gravity and drag to get the same job done as smaller TSS.

What would one choose for hunting coyotes at longer distances? #4 lead or #4 TSS? Either or, but TSS is obviously far more superior retaining energy further down range than its lead counterpart of the same size, even with slightly dissimilar muzzle velocities. 

What should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards? #9 lead or #9 TSS? Obviously #9 lead is inferior and #9 TSS is far superior retaining energy down range because of its greater mass and hardness.

Now knowing #9 lead is inferior to #9 TSS because of mass, what should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards, a large payload of #5 lead or smaller payload of #9 TSS? Either or will do the job, but - big but here - because of physics lead must be bigger to get the same job done and be subjected to the laws of physics in route. Therefore TSS is more efficient than lead of equivalent, or even larger size, yet the end result is the same at 40 yards with #5 lead and #9 TSS. One punched tag.

But to my very first point many circular post responses ago...to believe single data points, like initial muzzle velocity printed on a cardboard box, tells you nothing about what's happening at 40 yards. One must consider time, distance, gravity and drag.

So, if you won't actually consider the whole story, and instead respond with snippets and pictures of individual puzzle pieces because at face value it seemingly makes some obtuse and incomplete point, well there really is no point continually trying to pop the bubble you obviously choose to live in. Really, go read the articles and research on Apex or other manufacturers, and watch load testing on youtube, do research and discover all the facts important to making a fully informed decision instead of wrongly stating things like 'faster, heavier lead' is superior to smaller TSS. It just isn't.

So again, if you need to have the last word, even when its not factual, have it. All good, I'm finished providing the rest of the story from what I learned as I went from lead to Hevi to TSS. Got better things to do than go circles over piecemeal, single data point, incomplete, nonsensical responses.

Very good post on TSS, Paboxcall has about nailed it.


Here would be my honest, no BS opinion on the effectiveness of TSS from an old horse shoer's perspective. I hunt with an old 1700's smoothbore up thru to a recently purchased CZ. Lead thru TSS.

As an example, if for whatever reason I had not eaten in 2 days and there was nothing to eat for 2 more days

and you gave me a choice of a 20ga and one TSS shotshell of #9 or #8. Or a 3" 12ga and one shell of any load of lead #6, 5 or #4 shot. I would with total confidence take the 20ga and the TSS shell and go get something to eat.

[paboxcall]

Very good post on TSS, Paboxcall has about nailed it.

Here would be my honest, no BS opinion on the effectiveness of TSS from an old horse shoer's perspective. I hunt with an old 1700's smoothbore up thru to a recently purchased CZ. Lead thru TSS.

As an example, if for whatever reason I had not eaten in 2 days and there was nothing to eat for 2 more days

and you gave me a choice of a 20ga and one TSS shotshell of #9 or #8. Or a 3" 12ga and one shell of any load of lead #6, 5 or #4 shot. I would with total confidence take the 20ga and the TSS shell and go get something to eat.

All I'm saying is there is a reason people hunt with #4, #5, and #6 lead, but not #7, #8 or #9 lead. Or they hunt with #6 and #7 Hevi, or instead hunt #7.5, #8, #9, #9.5 and #10 TSS. Mass. Big to small, and all but small lead surpass minimum downrange energy benchmarks which is the point.

And if I'm going to get something to eat, I'll take the TSS as well. For certain I'm putting over 300+ #9 TSS vs. 100+ #5 lead in a 10" circle with a one shot opportunity.

[LaLongbeard]

# 5 lead 2.60 grains per pellet
1300 FPS
9.75 ft lbs of kinetic energy

# 5 Heavy shot 2.74 grains per pellet
1200 FPS
8.75 lbs of kinetic energy

#9 TSS 1.2 grains per pellet
1200 FPS

3.83 ft lbs kinetic energy

That's physics

To be clear I don't care if you shoot lead. Don't care if your too cheap, you're stocked for years with lead loads, or whatever. Just don't tout falsehoods about lead being ballistically superior to TSS because its "faster and heavier" using single data points, because that is as silly as saying steel is better than lead.

And purposely omitting real world factors like time, distance, gravity, and drag? Really helpful. So, to your recent cherry picked data point, muzzle velocity, that is information one should only use for shooting turkeys point blank range. Of course that comes with the added plus of no stray shot in the breast meat and pre-cooking from powder burns, so good on you.

Muzzle velocity is just the beginning of the equation. What happens after the equal sign (=) in that equation - retained energy at 40 yards, not muzzle energy at zero yards - is what actually matters. That TSS ballistic gel that you refused to consider or acknowledge, because you didn't want to defend downrange reality, you didn't want to talk about gel tests "at 100 yards" because I guess you've seen it, couldn't explain it staring at simple muzzle velocity numbers, so let's just ignore it.

Here is the inescapable reality:

Bigger is not always better, because a larger object in flight incurs more drag from the air. That is a fact. Bigger pellets with greater surface area slow more quickly, and bigger pellets slowing quickly due to air resistance lose energy faster over time and distance. Only way to overcome this is go faster. But going faster has trade offs and limits, so smaller pellets with more mass are significantly less susceptible to drag over time and distance making them preferable.

Heavier - you're word, not mine - is not better because "heavier" is more influenced by gravity over time and distance than a smaller object. Again, fact. At the muzzle, doesn't matter, down range it matters a lot, try throwing a volley ball and a bowling ball. The "heavier" lead pellet will slow more quickly over time and distance, dissipating forward kinetic energy trying to overcome the effect of gravity compared to its smaller more dense counterpart. Only way to overcome this is go faster, but faster has trade offs and limits, especially on patterning.

As mentioned earlier in a post, really, really fast is not always better because the faster an object is launched the more quickly it slows over time and distance. Yet again, physics. That is why 1,500 fps steel shot really provides no significant net benefit over slower steel shot because of steel's lack of mass compared to lead.

What happens at the muzzle is just one puzzle piece, though important - its the energy imparted on the object to begin its flight. What actually happens both in flight and at the target at 40 yards down range factoring - not omitting as you do - air resistance and gravity is way more important than initial muzzle velocity, and what all ethical hunters should consider.

Will #5 lead do the job at 40 yards? Yep, but it must be both bigger and heavier to preserve energy and still overcome challenging losses from gravity and drag to get the same job done as smaller TSS.

What would one choose for hunting coyotes at longer distances? #4 lead or #4 TSS? Either or, but TSS is obviously far more superior retaining energy further down range than its lead counterpart of the same size, even with slightly dissimilar muzzle velocities. 

What should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards? #9 lead or #9 TSS? Obviously #9 lead is inferior and #9 TSS is far superior retaining energy down range because of its greater mass and hardness.

Now knowing #9 lead is inferior to #9 TSS because of mass, what should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards, a large payload of #5 lead or smaller payload of #9 TSS? Either or will do the job, but - big but here - because of physics lead must be bigger to get the same job done and be subjected to the laws of physics in route. Therefore TSS is more efficient than lead of equivalent, or even larger size, yet the end result is the same at 40 yards with #5 lead and #9 TSS. One punched tag.

But to my very first point many circular post responses ago...to believe single data points, like initial muzzle velocity printed on a cardboard box, tells you nothing about what's happening at 40 yards. One must consider time, distance, gravity and drag.

So, if you won't actually consider the whole story, and instead respond with snippets and pictures of individual puzzle pieces because at face value it seemingly makes some obtuse and incomplete point, well there really is no point continually trying to pop the bubble you obviously choose to live in. Really, go read the articles and research on Apex or other manufacturers, and watch load testing on youtube, do research and discover all the facts important to making a fully informed decision instead of wrongly stating things like 'faster, heavier lead' is superior to smaller TSS. It just isn't.

So again, if you need to have the last word, even when its not factual, have it. All good, I'm finished providing the rest of the story from what I learned as I went from lead to Hevi to TSS. Got better things to do than go circles over piecemeal, single data point, incomplete, nonsensical responses.

Since your the one that first brought up physics tell me what part of these numbers are not a fact?
As for the other guy saying he thinks he'd have a better chance of killing something to eat  with TSS with a 20 gauge  instead of  a 12 gauge. I'd like to know what you did before tss just walk around the woods and hope for some magic shot shell to show up and defy the laws of physics and common sense so you could finally kill something? Lol

[LaLongbeard]

Just for comparison because the speed thing has got you confused. What if the lead #5 started out 200fps SLOWER than the TSS.

#5 lead @ 1000 fps 5.77 ft lbs kinetic energy
Ok so how slow would a #5 lead  have to start off to match  or lose to a TSS #9

#5 lead @ 800 fps 3.69 ft lbs kinetic energy
So unless the 1300 fps mv lead #5 will lose 500 fps over 120 feet or 40 yards and the magic TSS # 9 somehow doesn't lose a single fps over the same 120 feet or somehow doubles it's weight in flight   then the TSS #9 loses every time.

I've already said it before I don't have anything against TSS just had enough of the same ol misinformation and outright lies about the weight, energy etc. TSS doesn't cost more than the Nitros in HVY that I sometimes shoot so if the TSS was really superior it be just as easy to buy that. But if you actually look at the numbers it ain't. And if your gonna compare a 20 to a 12 and use the best super duper TSS load for comparison you should also use the best 12 gauge load available and every single time the 12 will win if you don't skew things in the 20s favor.
   As for as killing effectiveness I've called 3 Gobblers to 30 yards or so and someone else shot them 2 with TSS # 8s and one with TSS #9 all 3 died there was no more or less flopping after the shot. The only difference I saw was the damage. There was no visible damage to any of the 3 and with a lot of dead Gobblers shot with lead and HVY shot the difference was noticeable. One was body shot and yes he died but there was no massive bone breakage until we skinned him you could not tell he was even shot. The only ballistic gel comparisons I've seen is TSS to lead at extreme range. Like I said I don't care what TSS does at 80 or 100 yards that's beyond the effective range of lead or Hvy shot  BECAUSE they weren't designed to kill past that distance. I've also heard some knocked down and ran off TSS stories and although I didn't see it first hand the story's are at the least as reliable as the dropped him a t80 yards broke every bone but his left foot stories I've heard.
     Feel free to believe Voodoo or magic is somehow making a TSS # 9 gain weight and also increase speed after leaving the barrel I'll stick with factual numbers

[paboxcall]

I didn't dispute your copy / paste of muzzle velocities, you did a really good job. In fact I said that little bit of relevant information you provided was important. Though of course its important only for understanding what happens exactly at the end of a standard test barrel, not down range where it matters. But whatever.

So I'm just going to agree with you that what ever gets printed on the box, what happens at the muzzle in testing loads, that data point trumps all else past the muzzle. And we'll pretend drag and gravity aren't things.

Glad we resolved that.

[LaLongbeard]

I didn't dispute your copy / paste of muzzle velocities, you did a really good job. In fact I said that little bit of relevant information you provided was important. Though of course its important only for understanding what happens exactly at the end of a standard test barrel, not down range where it matters. But whatever.

So I'm just going to agree with you that what ever gets printed on the box, what happens at the muzzle in testing loads, that data point trumps all else past the muzzle. And we'll pretend drag and gravity aren't things.

Glad we resolved that.

500 FPS Five hundred
Are you saying you believe drag, gravity humidity or maybe pollen will slow down the lead 500 fps over 40 yards while not affecting the TSS #9? Wouldn't the same variables affect the tss? Even if the smaller shot lost less velocity it would still lose some and it already has non to lose. Non of the examples were cut and pasted it's really just simple math non of which is contained on a shell box that I'm aware of. No TSS seller would possibly want anything like those numbers printed anywhere lol. If you can't understand the numbers I don't know what else to tell you.
     Same velocity TSS loses
      Slow down the lead by anything less than 500 feet per second TSS loses
      And you really don't want to start looking at HVY shot numbers because HVY shot really is heavier than lead not a fantasy and it is traveling faster.

[paboxcall]

If you can't understand the numbers I don't know what else to tell you.

Its over LA. I'm moving on.

[LaLongbeard]

Well I was kinda hoping you'd have some kind of comeback to try and refute the facts. But I don't blame you there's noway around it unless you believe in magic or voodoo. If you need anymore help with physics vocabulary or formulas I'll see what I can do to help, have a good one!

[paboxcall]

Well I was kinda hoping you'd have some kind of comeback to try and refute the facts. But I don't blame you there's noway around it unless you believe in magic or voodoo. If you need anymore help with physics vocabulary or formulas I'll see what I can do to help, have a good one!

Wow, so grateful you took time to help me see that TSS is a total sham. 

[310 gauge]

T.HE S.PECIAL S.AUCE

[Greg Massey]

I JUST ENJOY SHOOTING MY SHOTGUN AT TURKEYS ... 

[LaLongbeard]

Well I was kinda hoping you'd have some kind of comeback to try and refute the facts. But I don't blame you there's noway around it unless you believe in magic or voodoo. If you need anymore help with physics vocabulary or formulas I'll see what I can do to help, have a good one!

Wow, so grateful you took time to help me see that TSS is a total sham. 

I wouldn't say the TSS is the sham when you boil it down 100 #5s or 300 #9s get the job done. The sham is believing or saying that the TSS #9 is heavier or has more energy than a lead #5 which is the exact false fantasy being propagated over and over to the point no one even bothers to see if it's true. I've read the same thing written in Field and stream by so called outdoor writers I've seen it in Federal advertising. Who originally came up with this fairy tale and why has no one bothered to check?
     How could anyone believe a 20 gauge shooting a lighter load at lower velocity is really superior to a 12 gauge with a heavier faster load of shot?
    I don't know the answers but it's been going on long before you and I had this discussion. And I guess it doesn't matter, if you feel better believing false information about what your shooting fine. Keeping your shots to reasonable ranges probably doesn't matter but a lot of people believe anything they read and really think a .410 or 28 gauge is a 50 yard Turkey gun or that the superior weight of tss makes 60-80 yard shots ok with a 12 or 20. These same people have no idea they are believing a sales pitch directed at the gullible or desperate.

[paboxcall]

The sham is believing or saying that the TSS #9 is heavier or has more energy than a lead #5 which is the exact false fantasy

Never once said #9 TSS to be "heavier" than #5 lead. In fact (and little secret, you won't read this on the muzzle velocity tab of the box, your only apparent source of information), #9 TSS is about half the weight of a #5 lead pellet, and about the same as #7.5 lead. But you already knew that because you have been arguing the same tiresome points about lead muzzle velocites with others for two years. Circular arguments with cherry picked data points sure are your MO buddy.

So the fact remains a #9 TSS pellet is way more potent downrange than its much larger #7.5 lead counterpart in weight, whether same speed or #7.5 lead went faster initially. That makes small TSS superior to larger sized lead, and given TSS mass, hardness, and shot count, better in all measures than its larger lead pellet counterparts from an efficiency stand point, or conserving energy.

You got stuck on the notion that bigger, heavier lead objects are without question superior (except maybe Hevi, because Hevi is heavier whether we believe you or not  It is heavier, we all know that). But bigger, heavier lead isn't better. It's as good as smaller TSS maybe at best.

Lead must be bigger and there must be more of it to work as well as TSS. Fact. So the ballistic efficiency win goes to #9 TSS. Just physics.

One can put 3 to 4 times the hits on target with #9s compared to #5 lead at 40 yards. Fact. Ballistic gel testing tells you the additional mass of a #9 TSS retains more than ample energy downrange to get the job done, plus hundreds of added hits on target, plus the significantly better penetration. Fact. Fact. Fact.

Hmmm...smaller loads, more hits, blistering energy, swarms of pellets, lower drag, blah, blah, blah. Not have to tote the 835, get beat up with ginormous 3.5" loads, etc.

That's a win for those who move to TSS.



We can keep doing this, but I am really done this time LA. You won't bait me further with your refusal to accept reality. You're a lead guy, every one here gets it. Good for you. I was too, but now I'm not. All good. I've read your same circular unfounded lead theories in other TSS threads from like two years ago. I'm not going to change your mind, only you can do that through your own research and learning.

Bottom line is this: a lead load must be both bigger in pellet size, and contain more of those pellets in the shot cup, to remotely come close in performance to smaller TSS, that's old news. It really is as simple as mass, pellet count, and down range penetration.

All the best to you and your lead loads. Wish you continuing success with them.