Covid and wild turkeys

[captpete]

Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Stopping ALL spring turkey hunting would be better.

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Also make it illegal to shoot a hen...bearded or not.

[Fullfan]

I saw that in 2020 Missouri had the second lowest harvest in 15 years. And it was not because there were no hunters. Been hunting there for 28 years, seen more guys this year than I ever have. And even worse was Pa.

[eggshell]

I would not jump to any  conclusions. One thing I learned in my years with ODNR is one or two years is not enough data to base regulations on, unless a known catastrophic event has occurred. It's trends that dictate change. In my area we did not see a big increase in hunting pressure. Where we did was the usual hard hit public areas and a few around private. At the beginning I thought it would bad, but a lot of the vehicles disappeared fast. I think the new people got frustrated fast and quit.

I just got a hunting survey from Kentucky about last year's turkey hunting and one of the questions dealt with fall limits. So states are looking at it. I also got a notice asking me to log my Ohio hunting hours and what I saw and bagged. I assume I'll get that survey after season sometime. I see no impact locally, but populations have definitely dropped off in the area I hunt in Kentucky. This year Kentucky did not allow non residents to buy license. That left some public areas void of hunters for a large part. It'll be interesting to see if more birds are there next spring.

I think there is reason to look at trends, but I'm not ready to say harvest is the cause of decline. One thing to consider is that when you stock into a void habitat, whether a new species or a reintroduced species, the first reaction of animals is to fill the space as fast as possible. This often leads to saturation of animals over and above the normal carrying capacity of the habitat. My observation is that this usually takes around thirty years to level out for turkeys. After that, you will see a population density drop down to what is a sustainable carrying capacity. There will still be fluctuations due to good and bad hatches (called recruitment). Yet the ten year average is a better indicator then one season's results, especially when looking at a partial season. What I think has happened in many areas is the leveling off to carrying capacity has been a bigger drop than hunters had anticipated. If this is the case it's not going to matter a lot what limits are. It's more a biology and habitat problem. That does not mean that hunting isn't a factor, it is, but only one of many factors. So this will not be answered this year or next year, but it definitely needs looked at.

I just looked at the numbers for Ohio's south zone for 2020, season ended 5/17/2020. There is a group of counties in SW Ohio that is all farm ground with woodlots and they were not stocked until about 20 years ago. They are now having kill numbers right up with the counties that were traditional leaders 30 years ago. In about 10 years you'll see those hunters saying, "what happened to our turkeys", I guarantee it.

[GobbleNut]

Regardless of the causes of wild turkey population declines, wherever they are occurring, the question really comes down to what can, and are, we going to do about it? 

Eggshell brings up a fundamental theory in wildlife management,...that new populations of species introduced into suitable habitat, all other factors being favorable, will increase towards carrying capacity and then decline to a more sustainable level.  The question is, can that be replicated?

I believe it is safe to say that, in some areas, turkey numbers may have fallen below sustainable levels.  That is due to something,...and that "something" needs to be addressed.  Unfortunately, there are factors causing these declines that cannot be realistically addressed.  For instance, anybody that thinks we are going to effectively manage predator populations on a significant scale under the constraints that exist in today's society is fooling themselves.   

Therefore, we have to look at addressing the factors that we can realistically address.  To me, the most obvious and fast solution to solving this problem is to re-adopt the same strategy that was used to establish wild turkey populations across this country to start with.  That is, re-stock areas that need supplementation (east Texas is doing this right now with their Eastern WT population).

Folks, there are plenty of places where wild turkeys are a nuisance, are not being hunted, and need to be removed.  The solution is simple. Re-start a nationwide program of taking turkeys where they are abundant and putting them in places where they are not. 

Yes, I know that this is an "artificial" solution,...but it may very likely be the only solution if we turkey hunters want more turkeys.  That is, short of drastically reducing human-caused mortality in the form of reducing hunting opportunity.  I think it is safe to say that most of us here do not want to see that happen, if possible.

[CAPTJJ]

Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

I'll give up my decoys when you give up your shotgun, bow only will keep hunter numbers down.

[eggshell]

Gobblenut, Those transplanted turkeys also react like they have been put in a new void space and will be more prolific for a while. I think it's also just good genetic management. I argued that point with internal biologist for years. when they finally did stock marginal area,  the birds exploded.

On predators, the willy nilly bleeding hearts club sure helped with that ....I'm not saying the name and giving them credit. I am a good example, I used to run a pretty significant trap line and I professionally graded fur auctions. One of my primary target species was raccoons. I used to hope for 7-10 coon per mile of trap line. Heck I can catch ten out by my garage in the next week. I no longer trap anything and our fur business went broke. They eat my peaches, get in my garbage and you name it. They are also egg eating S.O.B s and I bet half of all nest depredations are from coons. Then add coyotes and skunks at larger numbers and it is a hard place for turkeys to raise young. Coons are so thick it's a common thing to find a sick one wondering around with distemper or even rabies. The pretty people should keep their d#m nose in hollywood and not in the wilds of our country. You should kill every coon you encounter, plenty will survive to replenish the species. Here in Ohio, you can trap nuisance coons anytime and the law states they must be killed if trapped.

I will agree, that it's not food or loss of forest that is causing a decline. These birds adapt big time. I also doubt hunting is causing an over kill. Harvest usually keeps game reproducing at a high level. I once new a farmer who decided hunters were killing too many quail and pheasants and he stopped all hunting of these. Within 5 years you could not hardly find a quail or pheasant on his farm. 10 years later they were gone and this was C.R.E.P ground. Just up the road a guy allowed controlled hunting and he has birds to this day, it's good to harvest some. Under today's laws I just have a hard time believing we are over-harvesting turkeys in the big picture. Sure there are probably a few places we are.

[GobbleNut]

Good discussion.
Regarding predator management:  The days of killing predators for the sake of having more game animals for humans are quickly dying.  Whether we like it or not, we hunters currently make up less than 3% of the population.  Anybody that thinks our 3% is going to overwhelm the desires of the other 97% is delusional.  We have to adapt to those changing mores and tailor our expectations accordingly. Which brings me to your quote below...

Under today's laws I just have a hard time believing we are over-harvesting turkeys in the big picture.

I agree entirely.  Well managed and regulated hunting is not a factor in the declines in turkey numbers where it is happening.  However, the additive impacts of all the mortality factors influencing those declines point to only one conclusion as far as human hunting goes.  That conclusion is that we will either overcome those issues in terms that are acceptable to the general public,...or hunting opportunities will suffer. 

In my opinion, there are ways to turn these population declines around.  It just takes the will (and dollars) to do it.  As the old saying goes,..."where there is a will, there's a way".  Unfortunately, I'm not so sure the will exists in places where it needs to be.  The first step begins with changing that attitude in the right places. (here's a hint, those in charge of that four-letter turkey hunting organization that used to have their priorities straight but seem to have lost their way)

[deerhunt1988]

Simply a hypothesis at this point.

This.

I would not jump to any  conclusions. One thing I learned in my years with ODNR is one or two years is not enough data to base regulations on, unless a known catastrophic event has occurred.

And this.



I'm amazed at the number of new turkey biologists those few podcasts and article have created.


Yeah, carryover is going to suck this year. The truth is, some parts of public land in the southeast are accustomed to horrible carryover. These areas rely heavily on the hatch from 2 years prior for their legal gobblers. And guess what, still turkey! Enough turkey that non-residents don't hesitate to come hunt mid-March.

One of the things I enjoy about traveling to states outside MS is the opportunity to take longer spurred birds on public lands.

[eggshell]

I see more and more complaints about today's biologist and agency administrators today. This sounds like I'm bragging, but you know the old saying, "it ain't bragging if you can back it up, it's just fact". In the last 10-15 years the wildlife field has lost a lot of a great generation of managers/biologist and workers. It started in the 60s as wildlife/ fisheries management became more of a science. Then it became more popular in the 70s. In the early 80s a series of legislative actions happened that pumped mega bucks into fish and game. Organizations like the NWTF also brought a new vigor. Search out the Dingle/Johnson act and the Pittman/Robertson acts, along with the wallop/Brough amendment. With more money came the hiring of more people and higher qualified people. The generation from the 70s to 2000 of managers changed the face of fish and game management in this country. I don't believe that any time period saw as much change as this time. Environmental laws were also making an impact. Government agencies were rift with low paying positions that were packed with political appointments and social rif raf. When the money came in agencies quickly upgraded the pay and qualifications. The result was an influx of young energized and smart biologist /managers and administrators. They made a big difference and we benefited. managers could not only get better people they could buy equipment.

Before we shout with joy, let's come down to earth, as we all know government can screw up free cake and ice cream. This generation has now cycled out and retired and a new breed is taking over. They come from a generation that never earned their stripes and frankly manage on whims. They are the preppy millennials and they want to reinvent the wheel. THey want to use their fancy computer models and manage in social circles. Then add that sates and Feds are trying to steal the sportsman's money and Houston we have a problem. Add to that dwindling license sales and less people hunting and fishing and the revenues are drying up.

I recently had a conversation with the guy who took my old job ( I trained him for 15 years as heir apparent) and he told me about some millennial who had hired in in recent years and self proclaimed himself an expert in Muskellunge ( a species I had built a strong reputation on) and was reinventing the whole management approach. He told me, they were ignoring all the 30 years of research I had done and was doing it all over again. The new guy of course wrote a paper on his work. My replacement told me they wanted to tag 2500 muskies with an injected tag into fingerlings. He told them we had already determined that would not work and they told him just provide the fish, he didn't know what he was talking about....they had graduate degrees! My friend told them call my old boss. Well they done what they wanted and all 2500 fish died in the tanks.....idiots! That is part of what we are dealing with....the old school guys had a little sense. There are still good biologist, but there's more and more of these idiots too. It's sad to see them dismantle something you worked a whole career on

[Muzzy61]

Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Well if this is the case , lets get rid of all the shotguns and calls ....this would definitely be a good step.. getting rid of one is just as good, getting rid of another in my opinion..

I would still hunt them if there was only a rock throwing season. I'd go all Ernest T Bass on them...

[fallhnt]

I saw that in 2020 Missouri had the second lowest harvest in 15 years. And it was not because there were no hunters. Been hunting there for 28 years, seen more guys this year than I ever have. And even worse was Pa.

I seen MO was up from last year but I don't know what the forecast was going into this spring.

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[brittman]

WI was up 10% YOY from 2019, but 2019 was a down year.   WI kill this year was on par for an average / slightly above average season.   Turkey numbers seemed higher - so the increased total kill does not surprise me.

[GobbleNut]

...a new breed (of wildlife managers) is taking over.  ...Add to that dwindling license sales and less people hunting and fishing and the revenues are drying up.

All true,...but not unexpected as the hunting tradition slowly falls by the wayside.  More and more young folks graduating with wildlife degrees have never been hunters,...and have no interest in it.  Their interest lies in non-consumptive uses of wildlife and that is where their focus is.  Some are actually either passively against hunting or are out-and-out self-professed anti-hunters.  Fortunately, as of now, the majority of our younger generation wildlife managers are kids that were brought up with a hunting background.  If and when that scale tips, hunting in this country is in trouble.

Revenue sources are following the same path, and as long as state wildlife budgets are predominately dependent upon (declining) license sales, things will get no better.  The answer lies at least in part in earmarked state tax revenues (which some states already have), but that in itself is a double-edged sword. That has the very real potential for sportsmen to lose their influence as to how wildlife dollars are spent. 

All in all, we are living in a time where it is a "sticky wicket" for hunters, for sure.   

[Hoot 000]

I live in south Mississippi, been hunting turkeys for about 40 years there is not one certain problem you can put your finger on and say that is a cause of the decline I know for a fact that we've had disease in our turkey populations hunting pressure has contributed but predation from other animals is high, I don't think you will ever see populations we had in the 80s. There was a lot of people hunting this year due to the virus I believe that's why the stats from the states or so high and please realize a lot of people don't report their kills. In my area of the state one game warden have to Patrol three or four counties our Game and Fish is not interested enough in Wild Turkey population they are more concern with a person having a loaded gun in his vehicle and other matters until this changes things are going to keep going like they are

[sbbow]

Maybe they should drop the tag limits down an no more all day hunting. Nothing wrong with hunting til 1:00 like here in Missouri. There are some states where they can kill I think 4 don't quote me on this.


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