Am I the only one that didn’t know this?

[eggshell]

Hmmm, I didn't know this either and I'm not totally convinced. I done some searching and found a few papers on domestic turkey fertility and some of them reference wild turkey breeding cycles. It's a common practice to use yearling males in domestic turkeys. It's about gonad development and photo-periods. Actually as the season goes on semen production is reduced and testicles become recessive. It varies within a flock, but typically I see the mature toms staying active later into spring. It may be more of a function of when a jake was hatched the previous year. An early hatch might make him a month older and mature. I do know hens store sperm, and actually a Jenny can produce fertile eggs in small clutch without being bred that first spring. Many populations were built on this premise. I doubt we should be concerned about shooting the last gobbler, as the hens are bred very early. Typically the science suggest that two breedings are best about two weeks apart....this probably happens before we're even hunting.

[310 gauge]

Great conversation Gentlemen. Thanks for posting!

[Paulmyr]

I have heard this on and off over the years.  Not sure how they concluded that every jake is incapable of semen production,...would like to see the sample size of the study and whether it was undertaken with all subspecies in all parts of the country. 

Here's another tidbit that folks should consider when talking about shooting gobblers in the spring.  Decades ago, similar studies showed that a single breeding from a gobbler can result in the fertilization of all of the eggs a hen may lay in a spring.  That study showed that hens can store viable semen for as long as two months after a single successful breeding. 

Assuming both the "infertile jake" study and the "single breeding" study are valid, then the real concern about spring hunting as far as actual breeding is concerned is that the spring hunting season is set after turkeys have had adequate opportunity to ensure that most, if not all, nesting-age hens have been bred. 

In reality, when all is said and done, the real problem is not that hens are not getting bred and laying fertile eggs.  It is that there is no corresponding nesting success and successful raising of poults to adulthood due most likely to a combination of factors, many of which have been discussed here many times.

I think the biggest problem with hunting disrupting the breeding season is that hens nest at different times through out the spring instead of saturation nesting where all the nest and polt rearing is supposed to happen at the same time. Polts need about 3 weeks before they can roost off the ground. Until that time the nest/polts and the hen are extremely vulnerable to predation. If they are allowed breeding without disruption predators have a smaller time period in which nest/broods are vulnerable.

Is there a study to back that up?  Seems to me like that would be easy to tease out by comparing the timing and success of nesting of turkeys in unhunted populations with those in hunted ones.

They might all begin nesting at roughly same time but with high levels of predation on nests and the capacity to nest again after loss, the nesting season is always going to be spread out. Wouldn't it???

And I still don't understand how those guys know when a turkey lays it's first egg (so when nesting first starts). Once a hen starts sitting on the nest at night, I guess they could back date it. But what about those nests that are found by a snake or raccoon on the same day the first egg or second egg is layed?  I don't think their tracking devices tell them with any certainty that a hen has just started a nest. If that is the case, then their observed average start of nesting season is going to be later than it might actually be. 

Until I see some study to back this up, it will be hard for me to get behind moving the season later or not trying to kill the boss tom on opening morning.

I think the over all disruption caused by hunting doesn't just pertain to predation on nests. Taking dominant Tom's out of the flock before and during peak breeding effects the normal breeding cycle. I found It extremely interesting how Dr. Chamberlain called turkey mating behavior an exploded lek. Camparing them to other birds like sage or sharptail grouse where all the males meet at these leks to display and breed as many hens as possible in the shortest time period. His explanation of how turkeys do this on an expanded level across the landscape makes complete sense to me. The purpose of displaying/gobbling is to attract as many hens as possible and breed them. Hens choose dominant birds to breed with in these lek type systems. It's not something she takes lightly. The survival of the species depends on it by insuring the the Tom's with the best physical attributes  pass their genes on to the next generations. She normally breeds only with birds she considers dominant. Remove the dominant birds before peak breeding and she has to run through the whole process again because the pecking order has changed. She needs to redetermine who are the dominant Tom's.

I don't think Tom's are protecting hens as other posters mention. I think it has much more to with establishing dominance in their choice of breeding area within the exploded lek.

The overall disruption is not contained to just nesting. There are far more variables involved causing hens to breed/nest over an extended period than would happen if left alone. Atleast that's what I have gleened from the info I've been getting from Dr. Chamberlain.

[Spurs Up]

P: I used nest predation only as an example of a factor that could contribute to observations of a lengthy nesting season.  Sorry if that created any confusion. Nest predation and hunting are unrelated as far as I know, which is not much.  My point, if any, is while it might make sense that disrupting breeding is responsible for population declines, there's not a lot of science behind it. Some research data or a study designed to address this hypothesis would go a long way to confirm (or dispel) what is right now we'll-reasoned speculation.

[SoDak_JD]

I'm about halfway through Part 1 of the Jay Scott Podcast with Dr. Chamberlain.  He talks about some of this stuff on there.  It's another good one for anyone interested in the topic.

[Paulmyr]

P: I used nest predation only as an example of a factor that could contribute to observations of a lengthy nesting season.  Sorry if that created any confusion. Nest predation and hunting are unrelated as far as I know, which is not much.  My point, if any, is while it might make sense that disrupting breeding is responsible for population declines, there's not a lot of science behind it. Some research data or a study designed to address this hypothesis would go a long way to confirm (or dispel) what is right now we'll-reasoned speculation.

I'll take the guys word on it. He's been studying this bird for the about last 30 years. It doesn't sound like it's only a job to him. It sounds like it's his passion. It's what he does. I trust his sumerizations of turkey behavior instead of needing to see the exact study in the vast expanse of his work. The things he says make sense to me and verify what I thought I had learned from hunting them over the same time period of his work.

[Paulmyr]

P: I used nest predation only as an example of a factor that could contribute to observations of a lengthy nesting season.  Sorry if that created any confusion. Nest predation and hunting are unrelated as far as I know, which is not much.  My point, if any, is while it might make sense that disrupting breeding is responsible for population declines, there's not a lot of science behind it. Some research data or a study designed to address this hypothesis would go a long way to confirm (or dispel) what is right now we'll-reasoned speculation.

I'll take the guys word on it. He's been studying this bird for the about last 30 years. It doesn't sound like it's only a job to him. It sounds like it's his passion. It's what he does. I trust his sumerizations of turkey behavior instead of needing to see the exact study in the vast expanse of his work. The things he says make sense to me and verify what I thought I had learned from hunting them over the same time period of his work.

Too add to my comment. I don't think Dr. Chamberlain's words are speculation. I think they are based from solid research over a long period of time. I especially like his comment in the podcast about he don't care if someone proves him wrong in the future. It's not about being right to him. It's about the science. If someone takes the time debunk his conclusions means that somebody out there still cares enough about the bird to continue the research. Those words have a lot of credibility to me.

[Turkeytider]

Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then?  They will keep them at a distance or even run them off.  Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens.  I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.

Jakes will mate if given the chance but often the Jake's seaman potency is not high enough to fertilize the hen. He also touched on that some hens will refuse to mate with lesser males.

I think the point he was making is it is not in our own interest to rely on a few jakes to "get the job done" if we want to maximize the already difficult and delicate breading cycle for turkeys each spring.

His warning was we can't have our cake and eat it  too. If you want the very best hatches and bumper future generations of birds to hunt we can't be out there killing a larger portion of the mature males before or during peak breading.

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Our season here in Georgia opened March 21st. You wouldn`t have to hunt hard to find those who would advocate for a later ( 2-3 weeks ) opening. That speaks to the last paragraph above. Just personally, I would like to see a later opening for a couple of seasons or three so the biologists could see. I`m for whatever would help the birds.

[eggshell]

Another interesting point is, in the absence of depredation wildlife populations seem to plateau and reproduction falls off. Wildlife actually does better when you are harvesting some excess. They are always in the fill the habitat mode. Of course you can go too far with this.   

[TrackeySauresRex]

Great post. Thanks for sharing

[RemingtonRules]

I have killed them on opening day and on the last weekend.

I am all for the best interest of the turkey. I can kill them whenever they tell me go.


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[Sir-diealot]

Link please, had one that had been posted here but lost the link and forgot to share to desktop. Thank you.

[dzsmith]

Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then?  They will keep them at a distance or even run them off.  Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens.  I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.

the live video from lsu ag wasnt debating that jakes did not try to breed hens, or were incapable of going through the motions . it was just the point that they werent fertile yet. like a preteen almost in puberty.It was the first id heard of it to....

[Sir-diealot]

Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then?  They will keep them at a distance or even run them off.  Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens.  I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.

the live video from lsu ag wasnt debating that jakes did not try to breed hens, or were incapable of going through the motions . it was just the point that they werent fertile yet. like a preteen almost in puberty.It was the first id heard of it to....

I remember on that webcast they said that if the box tom were killed they would not just move to the next one in line, that they would have to reestablish a pecking order before breeding would continue but I did not hear about them being infertile.

[dzsmith]

Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then?  They will keep them at a distance or even run them off.  Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens.  I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.

the live video from lsu ag wasnt debating that jakes did not try to breed hens, or were incapable of going through the motions . it was just the point that they werent fertile yet. like a preteen almost in puberty.It was the first id heard of it to....

I remember on that webcast they said that if the box tom were killed they would not just move to the next one in line, that they would have to reestablish a pecking order before breeding would continue but I did not hear about them being infertile.

I don't know what was on the pod cast. I got this from the lsu ag center live question and answer session video they had, they referenced the podcast on the live session but they were answering questions from the public.