Am I the only one that didn’t know this?

[Mossyguy]

On another forum I frequent some info came up that absolutely floored me. Apparently there was a video put out by the Lsu Ag Center that referenced a podcast by Meat Eater and Dr. Michael Chamberlain. It stated that jakes are biologically incapable of breeding hens. I had no idea about that. On property I hunt if I know there is only one adult gobbler on it I will leave him alone just so hopefully he will stick around for the next season. Gives you something to think about next time you decide to shoot that last gobbler on a piece of property. 

Please tell me I'm not the only one that had no clue!

[ybuck]

i did not know this either.

thanks for sharing

[grayfox]

I never heard of it. But I never knew too much to begin with.

[GobbleNut]

I have heard this on and off over the years.  Not sure how they concluded that every jake is incapable of semen production,...would like to see the sample size of the study and whether it was undertaken with all subspecies in all parts of the country. 

Here's another tidbit that folks should consider when talking about shooting gobblers in the spring.  Decades ago, similar studies showed that a single breeding from a gobbler can result in the fertilization of all of the eggs a hen may lay in a spring.  That study showed that hens can store viable semen for as long as two months after a single successful breeding. 

Assuming both the "infertile jake" study and the "single breeding" study are valid, then the real concern about spring hunting as far as actual breeding is concerned is that the spring hunting season is set after turkeys have had adequate opportunity to ensure that most, if not all, nesting-age hens have been bred. 

In reality, when all is said and done, the real problem is not that hens are not getting bred and laying fertile eggs.  It is that there is no corresponding nesting success and successful raising of poults to adulthood due most likely to a combination of factors, many of which have been discussed here many times.

[Paulmyr]

I have heard this on and off over the years.  Not sure how they concluded that every jake is incapable of semen production,...would like to see the sample size of the study and whether it was undertaken with all subspecies in all parts of the country. 

Here's another tidbit that folks should consider when talking about shooting gobblers in the spring.  Decades ago, similar studies showed that a single breeding from a gobbler can result in the fertilization of all of the eggs a hen may lay in a spring.  That study showed that hens can store viable semen for as long as two months after a single successful breeding. 

Assuming both the "infertile jake" study and the "single breeding" study are valid, then the real concern about spring hunting as far as actual breeding is concerned is that the spring hunting season is set after turkeys have had adequate opportunity to ensure that most, if not all, nesting-age hens have been bred. 

In reality, when all is said and done, the real problem is not that hens are not getting bred and laying fertile eggs.  It is that there is no corresponding nesting success and successful raising of poults to adulthood due most likely to a combination of factors, many of which have been discussed here many times.

I think the biggest problem with hunting disrupting the breeding season is that hens nest at different times through out the spring instead of saturation nesting where all the nest and polt rearing is supposed to happen at the same time. Polts need about 3 weeks before they can roost off the ground. Until that time the nest/polts and the hen are extremely vulnerable to predation. If they are allowed breeding without disruption predators have a smaller time period in which nest/broods are vulnerable.

[Greg Massey]

Interesting post .

[Kylongspur88]

I didn't know it before I listened to the pod cast thought Jake's were like fork horn bucks. They might not breed as much, but get lucky every now and then.

That pod cast was very informative. I had no idea how big of a predator owls were or about the complex social structure of turkeys.

[Spitten and drummen]

Now if they would only allow us to hunt horned owls.

[squidd]

Always assumed Jakes could seal the deal and agree it was a very informative podcast - Dr. Chamberlin was very well spoken.

[bbcoach]

Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then?  They will keep them at a distance or even run them off.  Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens.  I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.

[1iagobblergetter]

Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then?  They will keep them at a distance or even run them off.  Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens.  I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.

I agree.Doesnt make much sense.
I do know mature gobblers only really need to mate about once with a hen to fertilize a clutch of eggs,but it doesnt stop them from remating.

[Spurs Up]

I have heard this on and off over the years.  Not sure how they concluded that every jake is incapable of semen production,...would like to see the sample size of the study and whether it was undertaken with all subspecies in all parts of the country. 

Here's another tidbit that folks should consider when talking about shooting gobblers in the spring.  Decades ago, similar studies showed that a single breeding from a gobbler can result in the fertilization of all of the eggs a hen may lay in a spring.  That study showed that hens can store viable semen for as long as two months after a single successful breeding. 

Assuming both the "infertile jake" study and the "single breeding" study are valid, then the real concern about spring hunting as far as actual breeding is concerned is that the spring hunting season is set after turkeys have had adequate opportunity to ensure that most, if not all, nesting-age hens have been bred. 

In reality, when all is said and done, the real problem is not that hens are not getting bred and laying fertile eggs.  It is that there is no corresponding nesting success and successful raising of poults to adulthood due most likely to a combination of factors, many of which have been discussed here many times.

I think the biggest problem with hunting disrupting the breeding season is that hens nest at different times through out the spring instead of saturation nesting where all the nest and polt rearing is supposed to happen at the same time. Polts need about 3 weeks before they can roost off the ground. Until that time the nest/polts and the hen are extremely vulnerable to predation. If they are allowed breeding without disruption predators have a smaller time period in which nest/broods are vulnerable.

Is there a study to back that up?  Seems to me like that would be easy to tease out by comparing the timing and success of nesting of turkeys in unhunted populations with those in hunted ones.

They might all begin nesting at roughly same time but with high levels of predation on nests and the capacity to nest again after loss, the nesting season is always going to be spread out. Wouldn't it???

And I still don't understand how those guys know when a turkey lays it's first egg (so when nesting first starts). Once a hen starts sitting on the nest at night, I guess they could back date it. But what about those nests that are found by a snake or raccoon on the same day the first egg or second egg is layed?  I don't think their tracking devices tell them with any certainty that a hen has just started a nest. If that is the case, then their observed average start of nesting season is going to be later than it might actually be. 

Until I see some study to back this up, it will be hard for me to get behind moving the season later or not trying to kill the boss tom on opening morning.

[Turkeyman]

From "Journal of Wildlife Management", July 1966

"Testes were collected from adult and subadult eastern wild turkey gobblers (Meleagris gallopavo silvestris) killed during Missouri's spring turkey seasons of 1964 and 1965, in order to determine the breeding potential of the subadult gobblers. Subadults were separated from adults on the basis of weight, spur and beard length, and retention of the 9th and 10th juvenile primaries. Rectrix replacement and progress of the post-juvenile or annual molt were helpful in separating age groups. A positive relationship was found between the predominant stage of spermatogenesis and testis weight of subadults. Testes weighing 7 g or more always showed spermatids, but those weighing less than 4 g never showed spermatozoa as the predominant stage. Bursa depths were shallower in birds exhibiting advanced stages of spermatogenesis, but spur length and beard length showed no relation to the stage of spermatogenesis. The sample taken from the testes of subadult gobblers shot during the 1964 and 1965 turkey seasons showed 28 percent (14 of 50) which possessed mature sperm. These data imply that these subadults could be capable of breeding."

[guesswho]

News to me.   Don't know if they are capable of fertilizing the eggs or not, but I know for a fact they will top a hen.   Seen it happen more than once over the years.

[TauntoHawk]

Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then?  They will keep them at a distance or even run them off.  Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens.  I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.

Jakes will mate if given the chance but often the Jake's seaman potency is not high enough to fertilize the hen. He also touched on that some hens will refuse to mate with lesser males.

I think the point he was making is it is not in our own interest to rely on a few jakes to "get the job done" if we want to maximize the already difficult and delicate breading cycle for turkeys each spring.

His warning was we can't have our cake and eat it  too. If you want the very best hatches and bumper future generations of birds to hunt we can't be out there killing a larger portion of the mature males before or during peak breading.

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