Wisconsin's Flock Dwindling

[owlhoot]

It also appears our conservation department is woefully ineffective at eradicating or at least keeping the hog population in check.

I may be way off but these are my personal observations over the last five years.

I agree on everything with you except the last point. Not many know it, but MDoC is using as much resources as they possibly can to eradicate hogs. They know that within the last five to seven years, there is no question a hog population establishing itself in the southern portion of the state, while at first they were just "wandering" herds of pigs from Arkansas. I think the DoC wasn't as open to the public of the hog problem, and that's why many believe they weren't doing enough. They currently trap hogs year round, and often radio collar big sows that will go back to their group after release. They then with the radio collars stage ground units around the hogs and then drop in on them with a Helicopter gunner. This has been highly effective for the state, but as other southern states have realized even at that it's hardly enough. They've elimated many groups of hogs on private and public lands as they begin to expand north, so they're effective in that matter, but as far as the problem in the south portion of the state it will be always existent unless a multi-state hog eradication plan would take place.

I don't understand the new law about making it illegal on NF to kill hogs at all, that was definitely a step in the wrong direction.

. What I was told by conservation is that by shooting the hogs they would scatter down river which would make them  harder to locate and trap them . This was on the Osage river a few years ago.

[GobbleNut]

I don't understand the new law about making it illegal on NF to kill hogs at all, that was definitely a step in the wrong direction.

I hadn't heard about any laws of National Forests around here that have outlawed killing feral hogs.  However, wildlife officials basically have concluded that the best way to eliminate them is by using the aforementioned "judas pig" approach.  Catch one, radio collar it, let it go so it returns to the main group, and then try to capture or kill as many of them as they can all at once. 

The theory apparently is that shooting individuals out of a herd just scatters them out and makes it more likely that they will pair up and establish new herds in more places.  Bottom line is, at least here in NM, they were not saying you couldn't hunt them on the National Forest, but that doing that was kind of counterproductive in eradicating them. 

Of course, that only works if there is a serious program in place by wildlife departments and/or the Forest Service to actually try to eradicate them.  Here in NM, when the hogs started to take hold, managers understood the implications and immediately got serious about getting rid of them.  As far as I am aware, that approach has been pretty successful.

[HookedonHooks]

I think predators and weather have more to do with a bad year or two around my area. Like was stated hardly anyone manages predators anymore. One predator that gets good at finding eggs or learns how to kill turkeys will wipe out way more than any poacher or a hunter that legally decides to shoot a bearded hen..

This is a very good point, and I do agree with this. There is clearly a lot of other factors than just one, and that's undeniable. The crash of the fur market in the last five years has had raccoon populations atrociously high. I trapped last year and didn't even skin a coon, it wasn't worth it to me for the price, and it was even up from the previous two seasons. I gave them to a guy that religiously does beaver and he said he sold them all green and averaged about $5 a piece.

For the guys who are very much against shooting hens (including myself) for reasons of protecting future turkeys, you better be making an effort to help eradicate predator populations and most particularly, the raccoon. I believe every SERIOUS turkey hunter should be trapping their local raccoons whether it's at the public land you hunt, or your own private. There's no question they're responsible for mortality rates higher than any other animal due to their keen ability to seek out nests and have egg breakfast. If you're serious about the turkeys and it truly is your passion, than it should be second nature to do other things to help sustain that resource. "Dogproof" traps are incredibly easy to use and very effective at catching raccoons. Even if you have no intentions of skinning or putting up fur, seek out a local trapper that would, or a coon dog trainer that would use them, most will be very accomadtiong if you're giving them to them for free. You're time invested will greatly improve your local turkey population, that I am sure of. I've witnessed it first hand.

Lastly, my point is mainly that there is a large group of us hunters that aren't looking out for the best of the resource we so much love. And it's us hunters that haven't fully accepted or realized we are still a portion of the problem. It's not just Jim Bob blasting turkeys out his window anymore, there is a HUGE group of people poaching nowadays, and that hurts. Add killing bearded hens in the spring, or any hen in the fall, and we are doing more damage than most are willing to accept. It's not solely on the guys taking "legal" birds, just as much as it isn't solely on the guys poaching, or the guys not doing their diligence in reducing predator populations, or guys killing over their limits. It's certainly a combination of these things, but of those, only two of them that can be reduced in a cut and dry manner. You're not gonna stop everyone from poaching, or over killing their limits. We can try and reduce them with harsher regulation, but we all know that will still only go so far. What can be done is reducing the number of hens getting killed by regulation adjustments, and we need to be more serious about predator control. For hens, maybe have an allotted number of fall hen tags or "any turkey" tags as states do with deer, then sell the rest as male turkey only permits. If a guy accidentally shoots a hen on a male turkey tag, turn yourself in, they're not gonna crucify you, they'll probably just make you fill your tag, and possibly give you a small fine, but often unlikely. For predator control, maybe give  incentive to turkey hunters if they can do a certain amount of predator control during trapping season, if you buy a trapping liscense maybe get a reduced price for the turkey tag?

[GobbleNut]

Outlaw decoys and reaping and I think there will he a healthy rise in populations.

While it is highly disliked by the majority of the hunting community, reaping does not effect the population nearly as much as many would like to think.  Also, decoys doubtfully make much of an impact either.  Or at least there is no solid research other than what we see in videos to prove otherwise. 

My biggest fear (and what I think most hunters should fear) is the govt stepping in to include more regulations/restraints on the general public.  As noted here, many feel that outlawing this or that would actually help the situation, when the outcome is just more hoops that hunters must jump through...which ultimately results in hunter numbers dwindling even futher.

I have been ringing the same tune regarding dwindling turkey numbers for a few years now.  Just take a look at any long term graph relating to turkey populations.  There was a sharp incline in most areas in the late 80s-90s.  Then in the mid 00s, a kind of plateau.  Now we are seeing the dip.  Things will likely settle down, but to make sure that happens, hunters as a group should settle down.  Legal doesn't mean that you have to do it. 

Another thing to mention is that many want to act like there is a giant crowd of "killers" out there.  I can say that for every 10 turkey hunters I meet, it seems like there is only 1-2 guys that are just out to fill tags at all costs.  Of course we have different tactics; some use deeks, some hunt private, some are die hard old schoolers, but for the most part, they take pride and show respect.

Remember guys.  We are all in this together, division is what THEY want.  And if you don't know who THEY are, just look at the latest decline in hunter numbers...THEY are the ones who love seeing that.

The only way spring GOBBLER hunting affects turkey populations is if you 1) disrupt breeding by hunting them too early, and/or 2) you decrease the number of breeding-age gobblers to a point where the number of gobblers left is so low that all of the hens are not getting bred.  It is the extremely rare turkey population where #2 occurs,...and #1 is still up in the air for debate. 

There is no doubt that turkey hunters have become more effective at killing gobblers in the spring.  That has certainly been aided by the "discovery", if you will, of the effectiveness of decoys, in general, and gobbler decoys and fanning, in particular.  Can the use of these tactics decrease gobbler numbers to a degree that significant numbers of hens do not get bred?  Again, that is likely pretty rare,...but might occur under certain conditions.

Some of the perception that there are less turkeys overall is due to the fact that, in many places, there are fewer mature gobblers "out there" to be heard during the spring season.  Again, that is because we are getting better at killing them,...which results in less carry-over of mature gobblers from year to year.  Couple that with a few bad years of successful hatches,...and suddenly you have a lot fewer gobblers to hunt.  That does not necessarily translate into fewer turkeys overall, but in terms of quality of our turkey hunting,...and overall satisfaction of hunters,...it can have significant impacts. 

At the end of the day, it is nesting success that dictates your turkey numbers.  In most cases, that is not a function of the number of gobblers you have. 

[LaLongbeard]

Not to change the main topic.... but about the hog eradication. La lets private land owners shoot them at night over bait, we can shoot them year round without limit. I know a lot of dog hunters that run them all year not even making a dent. As far as the trapping I've seen a lot of it mostly catch the young ones. I've seen them on cameras at the trap sights the big ones won't go in and the small ones do and get trapped, making the older ones even more Leary of the traps. You can kill as many as you can on one section and they'll just move off and come back a few months later. La is supposed to be working on a way to sterilize the females but not sure how you'd catch enough to make a difference. La did a study that found you'd have to kill 80% of a hog population to keep it from growing. If you had a hundred hogs you'd have to kill 80 a year to remain at 100, nearly impossible. If only turkeys could populate as quickly. Poison would be a large scale souloution but then you'd have the non target animals and birds being killed. They have no predators really except maybe Black Bears in some areas or the occasional piglet caught by a coyote.

[idgobble]

In Idaho there were very few turkeys (maybe 300-400) in 1982. Then F&G started transplanting as many as they could get from other states, so it was kinda like a newly introduced game bird. When that happens the new species "exploits" all available habitat and then crashes down to, usually, less than half the "boom" population in the habitat that is most suitable for them. That happened in Idaho and it took about 20 years for the boom and bust. I think, in all states, shooting from the road is illegal, so that's a poaching problem. Hunters have become more effective with the new decoys and equipment. The thing that bothers me the most is long range loads and shooting. There's no doubt in my mind that trying to shoot birds at 50 yds. plus has resulted in more wounded birds that die later. Overall, any species is regulated by the amount of habitat more than anything. Long term, it's habitat. Short term, it's weather. Here's the Idaho story. That's me in the photo. http://www.idahonwtf.org/foundingofIdahoNWTF.pdf

[Marc]

In most upland bird populations, it is my impression that hunting pressure is the least significant factor in bird production and populations.

Habitat is by far and large the most significant limiting factor in upland bird populations.

In California, our agricultural areas used to hold very large populations of pheasants in some areas, and there were also areas that had great populations of valley quail.

As farming practices and technology have improved, we see far less fallow areas in fields, and as water issues have become more of an issue, clearing ditches for improved water movement has been a tremendous loss of habitat and pheasant and quail populations in agricultural areas have dwindled to essentially nothing...  This had nothing to do with hunting pressure, and everything to do with habitat changes and loss.

Here in California, two (or three) seasons ago, following several years of drought, was the absolute lowest population of turkeys or valley quail I have ever seen in the foothills.  Turkey were scarce and quail were virtually non-existent in areas that had previously held good bird populations.

This spring following a couple years of good rain and habitat conditions we saw the highest populations of turkeys in the central valley I have ever seen...  Ever.  And I saw quail everywhere as well.

And...  Let us say you are hunting a ranch that generally has 100 birds on it.  And lets say due to drought or a hard winter, there is only enough food produced to support a population of 50 birds.  Those birds do not have a discussion to decide who gets to eat and who does not...  All 100 birds will continue to dwindle the food supplies until there is not enough food for any birds, and only the most fit will survive for the next season (far less than the 50 birds that the area is capable of holding).

Obviously following poor production years, over-harvesting plays a more significant role, but decreased populations of birds also generally mean decreased harvesting, often leading to hunters losing interest (especially the internet hero hunters).

It is my feeling and believe that the biggest role that hunters play in game populations, is in conservation, and being advocates for wildlife and conservation efforts.

If all hunters got together to raise money to pay the farming community to leave more set-aside areas, I believe that we would see a lot of game species significantly benefit.  We cannot control the weather, but hunters certainly could play a role in conservation and habitat improvement.

[Bay1985]

There's no doubt in my mind that trying to shoot birds at 50 yds. plus has resulted in more wounded birds that die later.

100% agree. Every time I see or hear about the "clean miss" I wonder how many of those Gobblers run off to die. If you shoot a super tight choke and take a 10 yard shot I can see no pellets making contact but at 40+ yards I don't care how tight the choke or shot is there is a very high probability of hitting the Gobbler in the body. If you don't think so you've never seen a shotgun pattern.
Case in point Bartlett Kimbrough has a YouTube hunt from 2018 were he shoots at a Gobbler at about 40 yards using Longbeards. The Gobbler is clearly bodyshot doesn't go down he shoots him again keeps running and takes flight third shot downs him in the air off camera. That Gobbler was hit and killed the first shot, but without the neck or brain being hit he was going to get away. The shot scenario looked exactly like all the other "clean miss" videos. Exactly like the group shooting of Gobblers on the THP video. How many people keep hunting and keep wounding/killing Gobblers ...and I guess bearded hens?

[fallhnt]

I've arrowed Fall birds that had shot in them from Spring. Birds a tough.
The reason Missouri outlawed hog hunts is because people are releasing them for hunting opportunities. They were doing/are doing the same thing in IL.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[bossgobbler]

From my point of view I will add another possible contributing factor to lower numbers. I would say our turkey population is fairly steady where I live and the surrounding region. Our best days seemed to be the late 90s early 2000s. Now I believe we have a good population but not booming like it once was. I am referring to Ohio.

On our small property it has been my goal to increase our turkey population. I feel like the things I've done personally have certainly helped that. The things we've done have not been hard at all but take a little time and effort. The increase in sightings has been wonderful.

1.) trap coons and possums. We have trapped over 150 coons on 50 acres. Actually, I've trapped them all in the same 20 yard diameter. Add in another 50 possums.

2.) create nesting habitat- hinge cutting and general wooded maintenance with the wild turkey in mind have helped tremendously.

3.) food plots geared toward turkeys- rye, wheat, oats, left standing well into summer has created some ground for hens to raise their poults in some protection. The mature birds eat the seed heads all summer and the points have 2-3-4-5' of dense cover above their heads. We also have a constant supply of various stages of clover. Clover attracts bugs, bugs feed turkeys.

4.) no/low disturbance on our land. We rarely go places that will distrust or disturb the turkeys and deer. We never hunt our land. We just like to see and listen to the turkeys. I'd rather watch them at home than shoot them. I'm an avid turkey hunter but I am more of a conservationist and will do anything I can to enjoy seeing more of them.

Now comes the problem I haven't been able to deter yet. I'd love any suggestions. Coopers hawks have been terrible on the poults. Our hens have been very successful in getting their nests to full maturity and the hatching successfully. Last summer I could verify with certainty we had a minimum of 42 poults hatched on our small 50 acres. Of those 42 only 7 made to adulthood. 5 jakes and 2 hens. I believe Cooper's hawks moved in and hammered them. Have you seen a Cooper's hawk in action?! Wow! Those are some amazing avian predators. Their flight in the woods is incredible. I'm hoping the hawk population doesn't keep growing. I believe they're harder on young turkeys than any other predator. Does anyone else notice that? Any solutions?

[GobbleNut]

In Idaho there were very few turkeys (maybe 300-400) in 1982. Then F&G started transplanting as many as they could get from other states, so it was kinda like a newly introduced game bird. When that happens the new species "exploits" all available habitat and then crashes down to, usually, less than half the "boom" population in the habitat that is most suitable for them. That happened in Idaho and it took about 20 years for the boom and bust. I think, in all states, shooting from the road is illegal, so that's a poaching problem. Hunters have become more effective with the new decoys and equipment. The thing that bothers me the most is long range loads and shooting. There's no doubt in my mind that trying to shoot birds at 50 yds. plus has resulted in more wounded birds that die later. Overall, any species is regulated by the amount of habitat more than anything. Long term, it's habitat. Short term, it's weather. Here's the Idaho story. That's me in the photo. http://www.idahonwtf.org/foundingofIdahoNWTF.pdf

Great article, Burk. 
As has been stated many times already, there are a bunch of factors that all impact turkey populations.  Fortunately, the reproductive potential of a game bird that can, under good conditions, raise a dozen or more young each year can quickly offset all of the negative factors,...if given the chance.

Unfortunately, those negative factors seem to be winning out in way too many places in the last decade or so.  As has been discussed, there are places in the U.S. now where turkey numbers appear to have dipped so low that it may be impossible for them to recover,...without human intervention.

We need to get back to the "trap and transplant" mind-set that wildlife managers and the NWTF had back two to four decades ago.  We seem to have forgotten that many of the turkey populations that exist nowadays are the result of those transplant efforts.  There is no reason why that T&T mentality could not be replicated today.   

[HookedonHooks]

We need to get back to the "trap and transplant" mind-set that wildlife managers and the NWTF had back two to four decades ago.  We seem to have forgotten that many of the turkey populations that exist nowadays are the result of those transplant efforts.  There is no reason why that T&T mentality could not be replicated today.

Texas recently purchased a large number of turkeys trapped off municipal airports in Missouri. They were transplanted to the northeast portion of the state where Easterns already been established.

This was more a nuisance removal, and Texas gave a higher bid than Oklahoma. Would be nice to see Louisiana and Arkansas put priority on buying turkeys when the opportunity does present itself such as those.

[Bay1985]

We need to get back to the "trap and transplant" mind-set that wildlife managers and the NWTF had back two to four decades ago.  We seem to have forgotten that many of the turkey populations that exist nowadays are the result of those transplant efforts.  There is no reason why that T&T mentality could not be replicated today.

Texas recently purchased a large number of turkeys trapped off municipal airports in Missouri. They were transplanted to the northeast portion of the state where Easterns already been established.

This was more a nuisance removal, and Texas gave a higher bid than Oklahoma. Would be nice to see Louisiana and Arkansas put priority on buying turkeys when the opportunity does present itself such as those.

I have contacted the LWFD and emailed everyone I could find about buying and releasing turkeys here in Louisiana. There is Zero interest. Basically the ones in control either don't hunt/care about turkeys or hunt on private land that still has enough turkeys for them. The average hunter in La thinks about turkeys couple days a year and won't make any effort to force the LWFD to do something. The transplant idea is a solid one for a lot of reasons. We know it works, new genetics added to the stock would help, most of our turkeys are in small pockets with a lot of acreage between flocks inbreeding has to be an issue.
According to LWFD  estimates the yearly harvest is down 43% since 2005. NWTF and LWFD estimated we had 80 thousand turkeys a year ago newest est are 50 thousand. Even if the estimates are off by 50% it ain't looking to good. The answer to all this was to move the season start date up by 1 week. We did make the top 5 worst states to hunt turkeys in.....so there is that. I guess were trying to be # 1 at something

[shatcher]

In Middle TN I believe it is the prefect storm of the season being a little long, a 4 bird limit that should be cut, creeks and rivers flooding during nesting (not this year though), predators and poachers/trespassers.  TWRA is lazy and would rather chase women than poachers/trespassers.  They don't want to shorten the season and bag limit because that might cut the funding for their green trucks they like to ride around in.

[Fdept56]

Now comes the problem I haven't been able to deter yet. I'd love any suggestions. Coopers hawks have been terrible on the poults. Our hens have been very successful in getting their nests to full maturity and the hatching successfully. Last summer I could verify with certainty we had a minimum of 42 poults hatched on our small 50 acres. Of those 42 only 7 made to adulthood. 5 jakes and 2 hens. I believe Cooper's hawks moved in and hammered them. Have you seen a Cooper's hawk in action?! Wow! Those are some amazing avian predators. Their flight in the woods is incredible. I'm hoping the hawk population doesn't keep growing. I believe they're harder on young turkeys than any other predator. Does anyone else notice that? Any solutions?

You've got a shotgun don't you?