Wisconsin's Flock Dwindling

[HookedonHooks]

This is a trend we're seeing all over the country as far as numbers dipping the last couple years, so it's nothing exclusive to Wisconsin, but I found it very interesting being the debates that have been had here recently. (All of which have been deleted because some want to derail each one for their own personal agenda of glorifying themselves or belittling others, which if that's your intention here, don't even post)

Here's the article: https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/outdoors/2019/06/08/spring-turkey-hunters-register-38-556-birds-second-lowest-20-years/1373278001/

The article is leaning towards the idea of nature balancing or leveling itself out, and that the flock peaked to a point in which there was too many turkeys. (i.e. so many turkeys doing crop damage that farmers were given x amount of tags based on property size to reduce population)

My thoughts are it comes down to more than one factor, but the one that gets blamed the most is lack of proper habitat management. Usually this is a jab against the states DNR or Conservation Department, saying they're not doing their jobs. I think the improper habitat "managers" are actually the hunters.  Seems so many nowadays have the "must fill" or "need" to tag mentality.

While some say they don't do this for any recognition, they certainly take them home to their families and friends and get their recognition or approval, insinuating that if they don't bring home success they've somehow "stolen" time from their families. This is the group that surprises me the most. It's been stated and should be obvious that none should "need" to fill their tags to feed their family, you choose to do as such. If you're pushing that hard for money, just buy the frozen turkey at your local grocer, and guarantee you have food for your family.

The last group surprises me the most, but this next group is what disturbs me the most. There is a new group of hunters that must kill at all costs in order to flaunt their "trophies" big or small, as long as it's "legal" (I don't think the idea or type of person is necessarily new, I just think the Internet has magnified the issue) I put quotes on "legal" as many members of this crowd will cruise back country roads looking for toms to shoot out of their window, and as the morning goes on they might settle for a jake or even a bearded hen. So while they might be taking legal Birds they do it with illegal methods. I also think there's many wannabe Instagram stars that probably go out and shoot toms with rifles so they can pose with a dead bird every other day. Within the group of roadhunters there's a very small group of guys that shoot everything, though wrong, I believe these guys are the people doing it to actually feed their family. When any game is a "success" it becomes a near guarantee, and the $0.50 they spent on the shell and $5 in gas certainly does become cheaper than the supermarket.

Getting back on topic, I believe the numbers declining across the country have more to do with us hunters as "habitat managers" than anything. When you have people arguing that it's okay to shoot bearded hens simply because it's legal, and then justifying it with a more than healthy population, they aren't looking at the effect it's still taking. This is why I particularly chose Wisconsin as it's been in the center of this debate. It's no secret they have a healthier flock than some states even with the recent decline, it just can't go without saying that killing this "one" hen did nothing to effect the population. If even as little as 250 hunters in Wisconsin thought the same thing this spring, they alone took out likely 1000+ turkeys for the following year assuming each hen could have had three poults survive on average.

I know there's other factors at play like predator populations, weather during and post breeding, and harshness of winter, but in my opinion a BIG portion of the recent decline, all across the country, has more to do with us hunters than many of us care to realize or accept. What are some of your guys thoughts on this matter? This can be a CLEAN debate, or an appropriate display of opinion, but if you're intention is to belittle others or glorify yourself in ways that will make others want to belittle you, don't bother to muttle this thread PLEASE.

[Yoteduster]

Seeing that i'm a old coder I can remember back when alot of states didn't have any turkeys or a viable population to hunt saying that! I believe as hunters we should all hunt legally and above all ethically and take care of this resource that we all enjoy

[Rzrbac]

I believe some long time hunters here in southeast Missouri are discovering turkeys are not an unlimited resource. We had it good for a long time but our thin flocks have been in steady decline. For my specific area it's been a perfect storm. This is our fifth year of floods and heavy rain well into June. We have always had a healthy population of poachers, those who drive the roads and plenty who start their own season at the end of March. We have also had big portions of timber sold off the Mark Twain. No doubt timber harvest helps maintain a healthy woodland but I believe the timber sales have been managed with money in mind and not habitat. One last factor is the rise in hogs. In the past year or so it has become illegal to harvest hogs on NF. It also appears our conservation department is woefully ineffective at eradicating or at least keeping the hog population in check.

I may be way off but these are my personal observations over the last five years.

[LaLongbeard]

Good post HookedonHooks.
I think a lot of the Northern states that are now enjoying big populations are going to see them start to dwindle just like they have in the Southeast. 20 years ago no one would have thought about hunting Wisconsin or cared how many hens they kill. Our turkeys down south will probably never rebound to the plentiful populations we had. A lot of people heading north every spring to take advantage of the plenty. It's important to manage and take care of it while it's there. I can tell you when I was a kid Mississippi had so many turkeys hardly anyone hunted out of state and there seemed no end to the abundance. It can and will happen up north like here if people are not careful.

[Happy]

There are only two approaches that are going to have a lasting effect. Tighten regulations and nail poachers hides to the wall. You aren't going to beat the internet and the quest for recognition. So you either tighten legal methods of hunting and make it harder to kill them or cut back on bag limits. That and appropriate punishment for poaching.

[tal]

 All the above. Poaching is an issue but I think most are not good enough to have that large an impact on turkey populations as a whole. They want a bird, and make up a tale on their expert hunting. Locally in west Kentucky I think it's a combination of a couple of hard winters (ice and deep snow on the ground over two weeks, two years in a row) and disease. I hear chicken houses getting the blame for the spread of poultry disease and the state wildlife agencies do not have the political muscle to speak honestly on what they find. Kentucky is just now admitting a population drop the hunters have seen for years. Tennessee started a long term turkey population study the last year or two I've been told. Habitat management can always improve but I see unfilled and suitable habitat, so I tend to lean towards other explanations. I know local flocks have been wiped out with the advent of large numbers of feeders. Most hunt'em, and a turkey is vulnerable to feed.

[fallhnt]

I missed the part of the article where turkeys were responsible for crop damage and farmers were issued nuisance tags. Turkeys get a bad wrap. In California wine country they get blamed for damaging vineyards. They are bugging but since they feed during daylight only,and are seen,they get a bad wrap. Habit quality and predator control are real issues that we can control. The more food supply the more predators. No one traps or coon hunts like they did before Whitetail hunting rebounded  and turkey restoration. Weather is not manageable. Cold wet Springs are hard on the hatch. I hunt a public area in a state thats not a great turkey state but the ground is well managed,for game and hunter numbers. A 1/3 of the estimated population is taken every Spring,on this spot. Fall is also managed but not a popular hunt. Add 10 birds for archery and gun. Turkey numbers rise and fall but seem to have leveled out. MO. is the best example of this. I hunted there in the early 90's. My area of my state didn't have a Spring season. It was awesome. The big floods of the mid 90's  changed the landscape dramatically. It's still good hunting Spring and Fall but it's hunting and not killing. Managing land and predators is the best we can do.

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[Bennett]

Outlaw decoys and reaping and I think there will he a healthy rise in populations.

[Yoteduster]

I see no reason to band todays legal methods of hunting if a state starts to see a bad decline on their bird population the only reasonable thing to do is stop nonresident hunting and cut back on their resident tags and the lengths of seasons more than likely the problems would be solved considering of course they have decent habitat and some predator control ect ect

[1iagobblergetter]

I think predators and weather have more to do with a bad year or two around my area. Like was stated hardly anyone manages predators anymore. One predator that gets good at finding eggs or learns how to kill turkeys will wipe out way more than any poacher or a hunter that legally decides to shoot a bearded hen..

[Gobble!]

I think predators and weather have more to do with a bad year or two around my area. Like was stated hardly anyone manages predators anymore. One predator that gets good at finding eggs or learns how to kill turkeys will wipe out way more than any poacher or a hunter that legally decides to shoot a bearded hen..

Completely agree.

[turkeyfoot]

If a states population is struggling first thing I would do is start season later to allow more breeding in peace my guess is many states open little to early

[HookedonHooks]

It also appears our conservation department is woefully ineffective at eradicating or at least keeping the hog population in check.

I may be way off but these are my personal observations over the last five years.

I agree on everything with you except the last point. Not many know it, but MDoC is using as much resources as they possibly can to eradicate hogs. They know that within the last five to seven years, there is no question a hog population establishing itself in the southern portion of the state, while at first they were just "wandering" herds of pigs from Arkansas. I think the DoC wasn't as open to the public of the hog problem, and that's why many believe they weren't doing enough. They currently trap hogs year round, and often radio collar big sows that will go back to their group after release. They then with the radio collars stage ground units around the hogs and then drop in on them with a Helicopter gunner. This has been highly effective for the state, but as other southern states have realized even at that it's hardly enough. They've elimated many groups of hogs on private and public lands as they begin to expand north, so they're effective in that matter, but as far as the problem in the south portion of the state it will be always existent unless a multi-state hog eradication plan would take place.

I don't understand the new law about making it illegal on NF to kill hogs at all, that was definitely a step in the wrong direction.

[tal]

 With the research I've seen the only way to control wild hog populations is baiting and trapping large numbers at one time. You just need the political will. And expose the animal rights nuts to be as misguided as they are.

[Spurs]

Outlaw decoys and reaping and I think there will he a healthy rise in populations.

While it is highly disliked by the majority of the hunting community, reaping does not effect the population nearly as much as many would like to think.  Also, decoys doubtfully make much of an impact either.  Or at least there is no solid research other than what we see in videos to prove otherwise. 

My biggest fear (and what I think most hunters should fear) is the govt stepping in to include more regulations/restraints on the general public.  As noted here, many feel that outlawing this or that would actually help the situation, when the outcome is just more hoops that hunters must jump through...which ultimately results in hunter numbers dwindling even futher.

I have been ringing the same tune regarding dwindling turkey numbers for a few years now.  Just take a look at any long term graph relating to turkey populations.  There was a sharp incline in most areas in the late 80s-90s.  Then in the mid 00s, a kind of plateau.  Now we are seeing the dip.  Things will likely settle down, but to make sure that happens, hunters as a group should settle down.  Legal doesn't mean that you have to do it. 

Another thing to mention is that many want to act like there is a giant crowd of "killers" out there.  I can say that for every 10 turkey hunters I meet, it seems like there is only 1-2 guys that are just out to fill tags at all costs.  Of course we have different tactics; some use deeks, some hunt private, some are die hard old schoolers, but for the most part, they take pride and show respect.

Remember guys.  We are all in this together, division is what THEY want.  And if you don't know who THEY are, just look at the latest decline in hunter numbers...THEY are the ones who love seeing that.