The Myth of Hunting Pressure

[shaman]

AH!  A convert!

and a self-professed Old-schooler as well!  Dang. I'm going to take the rest of the day off and celebrate.

IHunt, let me try to get you over the last hurdle and bring you into the light.  Describe for me in as much clarity and detail as you can exactly how a person with highly esteemed hunting abilities such as yourself will hunt a "pressured" gobbler differently than any other kind of ornery gobbler. This should be a simple task.  Simply start by typing, "When I find a gobbler is pressured, I ____________" and before you are finished typing add, ". . . This is completely different from when I discern that the gobbler in front of me is some how being otherwise uncooperative.  I know he is not pressured and only ornery, because ____________ and I do the following instead:_________________."

My point to people is this: we have this broad assumption that hunting pressure causes gobblers to be ornery, but we are always quick  to assume it is hunting pressure when they get cantankerous. On the other hand,  If a gobbler is killed on a "heavily pressured" piece of ground, does that mean :
a) The effects of the pressure wore off?  I thought mature gobblers learned.
b) The gobbler was retarded? If so, how did he survive as long as he did?
c) The gobbler somehow missed The Opener?  My guess is he was on a gambling bender over across the state line.
d) The Hunter was somehow superior to his peers and exercised a superior strategy to nail this gobbler?  See,this is the assumption that gets you invited to speak at turkey seminars. All you have to do is get up on stage and tell folks you're going to give advanced secrets on hunting pressured gobblers and then folks buy your DVD, T-shirt and coffee mugs. Of course it must be this, right?

[Ihuntoldschool]

Turkeys learn from their experience so I think this is where pressure comes in. When a bird has been called up shot at, peppered with shot, watched his brother/buddy get shot in front of his eyes he learns. Getting bumped/spooked multiple times a day all of a sudden (opening of the season). All of this makes the bird harder to call to the gun. The hens of course learn as well from these experiences.  None of these things make the bird impossible to call up, just harder.

The truth is  you cannot sit there and look at the behavior of a bird you are calling to and say with any kind of certainty "He won't come because he is pressured".   That what you were looking for?  That is my opinion.  You cannot say with any certainty  "That bird is not gobbling this morning because of all that pressure that has been put on him.   Maybe, maybe not.  "That" bird may be roosted 2 miles away from where he was yesterday morning and could be gobbling his fool head off there.  He may be dead.  He may be surrounded by hens and have no reason to gobble.  Maybe there is predator around the roost area?   There is no way to tell with any certainty that pressure is to blame.  Another thing, you cannot say with any certainty "I called to that turkey and he went the other way, because of all the pressure put on him."  Or, "That gobbler will not answer a call because of all that pressure".  You do not know that is the reason.    Or how about when a gobbler answers a locator call but will not answer a hen call, "because of all that pressure"  Nope, sorry you do not know that to be the reason.   So many other factors!

Many times, he just wants/expects even the hen to come to him.  Turkeys being turkeys, ornery, stubborn or whatever you call it.

Age structure plays a role here in my experience.  3 year old or older birds are tougher to call up in my experience. No doubt that when you fool them, you fooled them just as much as a 2 year old bird.  Some of this is learned behavior through experience. These older, more dominant birds are more likely to have hens at any given time throughout the season. The hens go to them and they know this and fully expect that to happen.  2 year olds are a little more eager and a lot less PATIENT in my experience.

By the way I am no expert at all.   I am no better than anyone else. I can only base these beliefs off my experience and understanding of turkeys.

I made the point before that a 3 year old or older mature gobbler is a 3 year old regardless of where he lives.  Now a counterpoint was made that on areas closed to hunting, parks and such you can call them 3 or 4 yr old gobblers right to your truck bumper.  I have never tried this, maybe you can?  Does this mean that 3 or 4 yr old gobblers are easy to call in unpressured areas?  Maybe, but I am not so sure?

Was this before the season opened, before the hens were actively breeding?  And if it was, who can say you could not go to a pressured area before the season, before the pressure gets put on the birds, and again before MOST hens are actively breeding (key factor here) and do the same thing?

I don't call to birds before the season, so I cannot say.  Timing makes a big difference.

[shaman]

Sir, I feel you to be a kindred spirit.  Many thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts to writing on this. 

BTW: I've been accused of being an old-schooler. When I first heard it, it was spit at me as an insult, and I thought the fellows making the accusation were daft, but I realize as I get on this endeavor that I share more with the old-school methods than any other.  I just have an eccentric way of looking at things.  I still feel like $.25/ round is a good price for turkey ammo.  Box calls belong in a bread bag, and a good turkey gun should increase in value once it is spray painted.  I also think turkeys look stupid in a vest, and how anyone expects them to wear one is beyond me.

[GobbleNut]

Again, perhaps our individual experiences in the places each of us hunts sway our opinions on these matters. 
Your four points made at the end of your last post, Shaman, make me think that you somehow think you have the same chance of killing a gobbler (and especially an older gobbler) at the end of the season as you do at the start,...and it is based solely on his mood at the time.

From my experiences where I hunt, that is not at all true,....or at least based on all evidence I have seen. 

First of all, older age class birds,....those that are older than three,...are very seldom killed by a hunter simply calling to them and having them come to the gun.  We're talking about hard-hunted, public land gobblers here.  Some of them do get killed,...but the circumstances are almost invariably due to circumstantial luck on the part of the hunter.  When somebody returns to camp with an old gobbler here, their story is always one of,..."I was in the right spot at the right time",...and conversely, it is never one of,..."I called to him, and he came to me just like a young bird".  ...And I mean NEVER.

You might rightly say,...Well, isn't that because there are just a lot fewer older gobblers around?  No, it is not.  Where I hunt there is a significant carry-over of older-age-class birds every year.  I know this because I see them year-round. 

We hunt the crap out of our birds around our place.  Lots of hunters, and with many having great hunting skills and calling ability.  We kill lots of gobblers, but almost all of them are two and three-year-olds.  We watch the birds before the season and we know what we have around and where they roost.  Without exception, the birds that are left at the end of the season are the older birds,...and of course a smattering of the younger ones that have survived. 

It's not that we don't try to kill the older birds,....we do.  They just are not susceptible to the same hunting tactics that the younger birds are,...and that is at the start of the season all the way to the end of the season.  They have learned, over time, what they have to do to stay alive,...and the most basic of those lessons appears to be to stay away from any kind of turkey calling they hear.

I could go into great detail about how I have come to the conclusions I have about this over the last fifty years, but it would take a book.  Suffice it to say that it is based on a clear pattern of behavior that our turkeys have exhibited over decades and generations of birds. 

[Ihuntoldschool]

I have killed a few older gobblers on hard hunted public land by calling them in not being in a right spot or ambushing them or anything like that. Note, I said a few not many.   The right spot patterning thing is a joke in this part of Appalachia where I hunt.

Do they come to the gun like younger birds?   No not really, usually it is more of a longer, drawn out battle with many chess moves. They are tough but not impossible.  PATIENCE.  I am not willing to say you can NEVER call an older gobbler to you on hard hunted public land.   

Interestingly enough, most of my older age birds, public or private have been LATE in the season not early.   What does this say about hunting pressure?   Late season means more hens on the nest and less available to breed with those older birds that are generally covered up in hens earlier in the season.

[shaman]

Again, perhaps our individual experiences in the places each of us hunts sway our opinions on these matters. 
Your four points made at the end of your last post, Shaman, make me think that you somehow think you have the same chance of killing a gobbler (and especially an older gobbler) at the end of the season as you do at the start,...and it is based solely on his mood at the time.

From my experiences where I hunt, that is not at all true,....or at least based on all evidence I have seen.   

No.  I don't think that.    Mind you, my experience with older birds is maybe 3 out of the last 20 were obviously mature birds.  Mostly, they just don't live all that long in our area.   I don't claim great expertise in this arena. 

I also agree that as the season wears on, there seems fewer opportunities regardless of cohort. However, I can also point to years where the "ON" state for the gobs did not happen until the last week of season, and I can distinctly remember one old bird that came running to me the week after season ended. He was obviously confused. I was just walking across the pasture and he came trotting up like a lost dog and broke into a strut.  However, these are exceptions.  No, it is not just individual mood.  That gobbler must have had Alzheimers. 

What I can say is this.  In my memory, every bird I have taken of any respectable age has been shot at fairly short range and was strutting for me prior to being shot.   To me that says he bought into it. I would also be the first to say any day a gobbler buys my line, I am blessed with incredible luck.

[chatterbox]

I really believe that gobbling and coming to calls is dependent upon where the birds are in the breeding cycle. Sometimes hen calls work, sometime gobbler calls work.
If you go to where a gobbler wants to be instead of trying to pull him to where he doesn't want to go, your success will improve.
Now, quite a few years ago, my son and I were working a bird. He was on a string, coming to my calls, till 2 guys on mountain bikes drove right by him, spooking him. Now, I find it hard to believe that every time that bird hears a hen call, he is gonna think of 2 strange looking things riding along the side of a field. They do not have the capacity to reason. I also feel that right around the hours of 10-12 in the morning later in the season, is a great time to kill one.
I will give another example. My FIL and I were pre season scouting and had a hen go right by our blind yelping to beat the band. She finally left. About 10 min later, a tom was in the middle of the field gobbling his head off. Now the hen never reappeared, and the tom lost interest and walked off. He wouldn't have known any different if it was a hunter or a real hen making those noises.
My point is, I also feel gobbling has peaks and valleys. The key is to know how to hunt both.
By no means can I do it with consistency, but you see guys that kill birds regularly no matter what part of the season it is.

[g8rvet]

Late season means more hens on the nest and less available to breed with those older birds that are generally covered up in hens earlier in the season

Amen!  It is also why I tend to stick it out a little later as the season goes along.  The harem is thinning and Mr Big starts looking for more chicks later in the day as the hens go off to nest. 

[owlhoot]

Turkeys learn from their experience so I think this is where pressure comes in. Getting bumped/spooked multiple times a day all of a sudden (opening of the season). All of this makes the bird harder to call to the gun. The hens of course learn as well from these experiences.
  So many other factors!


Age structure plays a role here in my experience.  3 year old or older birds are tougher to call up in my experience.  Some of this is learned behavior.

By the way I am no expert at all.   I am no better than anyone else. I can only base these beliefs off my experience and understanding of turkeys.

I made the point before that a 3 year old or older mature gobbler is a 3 year old regardless of where he lives.  Now a counterpoint was made that on areas closed to hunting, parks and such you can call them 3 or 4 yr old gobblers right to your truck bumper.  I have never tried this, maybe you can?  Does this mean that 3 or 4 yr old gobblers are easy to call in unpressured areas?  Maybe, but I am not so sure?

Was this before the season opened, before the hens were actively breeding?

I don't call to birds before the season, so I cannot say.

Turkeys learn from experience? Yes they do. And where do they get that experience the quickest  and the most. Well on hard hunted land i would say. So a 3 year old or older bird on land which see very little pressure more than likely has not had near the interaction with hunters or calling from them. He may come to the first human call he has ever heard and die, if there is light pressure on that land area, then maybe the 2 year olds got it first.  Now a 2-3 year old bird who has survived some on public or hard hunted land has probably alot more interaction and alot more wariness or learned behavior than older birds on un-pressured or light pressured land. And how wary are those old mama hens ( teachers)?

[Ihuntoldschool]

Owl, I agree pressure is still a factor. It has to be, turkeys do learn from their experiences.  We know this is a factor. 
But the 3 year old or older  dominant birds are still more likely to be surrounded by a harem of hens throughout the season regardless of where they live, light pressure/no pressure/heavy pressure.  Hens are a huge factor here as well, not just pressure, do you agree?

I agree the average 2 year old on an area with little to no pressure, will probably die first, compared to the 3 year old.  That 2 year old is short on patience and eager to breed, compared to the average 3 year old or older who has the patience of Job.

A 2 year old on public hard hunted land no doubt is more wary and has had more experiences to learn from than a 2 year old on light or no pressure areas. But he still is short on patience and that gets him in trouble sometimes. He is not used to having that harem of hens like your older, more dominant birds.

Pressure is a certain factor.  But I will not ignore that turkeys behave differently depending on age, and the availability of hens.

[owlhoot]

.





I made the point before that a 3 year old or older mature gobbler is a 3 year old regardless of where he lives.  Now a counterpoint was made that on areas closed to hunting, parks and such you can call them 3 or 4 yr old gobblers right to your truck bumper.  I have never tried this, maybe you can?  Does this mean that 3 or 4 yr old gobblers are easy to call in unpressured areas?  Maybe, but I am not so sure?

Was this before the season opened, before the hens were actively breeding?  And if it was, who can say you could not go to a pressured area before the season, before the pressure gets put on the birds, and again before MOST hens are actively breeding (key factor here) and do the same thing?

I don't call to birds before the season, so I cannot say.  Timing makes a big difference.

Well the story is true, sit in the picnic shelters and called them right up too. No camo and coffee in hand. White t shirt on the walking trails, all true.  I walk these trail year round. Now the tom calling is to hear the gobbles and what the strutting i like so much. Missouri season is short , days i get to go even shorter. Most time it starts after the best times to be out when gobblers are going nuts. Yep you gotta love our henned up season here in Missouri! I don't call turkeys just to kill. I only call these birds in places that don't get hunted, don't want to call shy or pressure hunting areas even if i don't hunt there. Most hunting area birds seem to be wary year round, but more when they start getting hunted. Opening day is the best chance no matter the  mode they are in pressured areas.  But if people give up it can pick back up..  hens on the nest always the best!

[falltoms]

 

Hunt Pennsylvania public land and you will discover that hunting pressure is NO myth!

[owlhoot]

Agree about the hens, cant say why but a few times through out  the years i have seen jakes have alot of hens go running to them and i knew there were mature gobblers around in the area. I would diffidently agree that henned up toms are the worst to deal with anywhere you can hunt.

[Blackduck]

OK, just a few points for ya'lls edification.

Research and look at some of the radio telemetry studies done by some state game & fish depts following turkeys before, during, and after the season. I did a few years ago. It was interesting stuff. I remember one study, I believe from LA, on public hunting ground. I may have specific details incorrect here, but as I remember it, 8 birds were tagged and followed on this ground before the season. I think most were actively gobbling and breeding hens there prior to the season. Due to "scouters" walking the woods, owl hooting and yelping while looking for birds, most birds bumped into "hunters" before the season. One bird moved 8 miles to a refuge(that he probably knew from prior years). Most of the others left the public hunting ground for adjoining properties(with less pressure). Less than half the birds were there by opening day. Only 2 or 3 stayed on the property during the season. One quit gobbling and stayed right by the parking area(smart). I think 1 got shot. That tells me pressure affects them. So did the other studies I've read.

Personal experience- I scouted a powerline right of way on a deer club a few days before season and found a nice bird strutting for hens early morning. Opening day I was there with a full strut deke and two hen dekes, sitting with my back against a fat oak. The birds showed up like clockwork, coming out into the powerline 100 yards away. A few calls later and 3 hens, a jake, and the gobbler were heading my way. They got to 60 yards and the gobbler stopped. The hens and jake came right into the dekes, pecking around, purring, and checking em out. The gobbler locked up, watched em for a minute, then bolted back into the woods like a rifle shot(obviously spooked). The hens and jake kept on down the powerline and once they got 80 yards past me the gobbler popped back out and rejoined them. I couldn't figure that out for nothing. Talked to another guy in the club and found out that there had been 2 big gobblers on that powerline, but the weekend before he took his son on youth day to that same area, and called both those gobblers right into a full strut deke and the son blasted one of them. The bird I hunted was the other. And he "learned" that full strut dekes are bad news. I killed him the next day, same hunt plan, no dekes. And that is no fluke, I have had similar "survivor" birds go decoy shy on other occasions, and gone back with no deke to make it happen.

Or the guy I know who calls too much, called one in and who wounded it, never heard it again and knew it was coyote food. 3 weeks later I come down trying to help him kill another bird on the other side of the farm that he's been messing with. Wounded bird fires up and crosses a 800 yard wide field and walks right down his gun barrel. Why? Because I didn't let him call, and those birds "know" his sound. Seen it many times hunting his spot. He doesn't call if I go. Studies show turkeys recognize individual turkeys in the flock, and the subsequent pecking order of dominance, by sound or sight. They recognize individual birds-and presumably hunters imitating birds.

They learn. They remember. I've read some college studies on wild turkey behavior, and they learn, and they avoid spots where they've had bad experiences. That being said, I've missed a bird and killed him 100 feet away a day or two later, acting like he was never messed with. I've also missed a bird and never seen or heard from him again. It happens. I believe it has to do with how much they picked up on what was happening with that bad experience. A loud noise(miss) and nothing else, why leave? A loud noise and pain(a few pellets hit) followed by a big brown thing jumping up and giving chase- probably time to avoid that area from now on.

Just the opinion of a guy that's spent 400+ days chasing spring gobblers. I got nothing on the old timers. But I know a lot about turkeys. 

[Marc]

My point to people is this: we have this broad assumption that hunting pressure causes gobblers to be ornery, but we are always quick  to assume it is hunting pressure when they get cantankerous. On the other hand,  If a gobbler is killed on a "heavily pressured" piece of ground, does that mean :
a) The effects of the pressure wore off?  I thought mature gobblers learned.
b) The gobbler was retarded? If so, how did he survive as long as he did?
c) The gobbler somehow missed The Opener?  My guess is he was on a gambling bender over across the state line.
d) The Hunter was somehow superior to his peers and exercised a superior strategy to nail this gobbler?  See,this is the assumption that gets you invited to speak at turkey seminars. All you have to do is get up on stage and tell folks you're going to give advanced secrets on hunting pressured gobblers and then folks buy your DVD, T-shirt and coffee mugs. Of course it must be this, right?

I just found a small out of the way public spot with a bird that is ripe for the picken'.  I will not be able to hunt that bird until Wednesday of next week...  If someone kills that bird before I get a chance to hunt it, I have lost out...  The death toll of the easy birds, in and of itself makes public hunting more difficult...  And the dumber birds generally are the first to be harvested...  The more savvy birds are the ones that tend to survive, and they are the birds that are difficult to hunt.

Then there is the direct issue of having other people in the woods...  Some hunters do not seem to have even the most basic foundation of common sense...  Walking around, talking loudly, etc...  The activity of hunters in a given area can often put even the most eager of birds on alert, and the survival instinct still outweighs the breeding instinct.

I cut my teeth on a couple of ranches when I was in college...  Very large turkey population with considerably less hunting pressure than I now see...  I tagged out every year I hunted turkeys (including my first year hunting them), not because I was a good hunter, but because I was hunting a large unmolested group of birds...  Eventually, one would be horney or stupid enough to come in to my inept methods.

I seriously doubt I would have killed the birds I have the last couple seasons, using the tactics I used when I was learning...  I am fully aware of the fact that there are guys on this forum that would have success killing birds that have alluded and still allude me.