Win Longbeards #5 are equal to what in Hevi-shot size?

[darn2ten]

Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration.  Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.

This is exactly right, and the exact reason I believe lead actually hits harder than HTL. Think about it this way. What would you rather deer hunt with, a full metal jacket or a soft point bullet? One is just going to poke a narrow hole straight thru while the other is going to mushroom and expend it energy on target. I've killed birds with #7 Hevi and wasn't impressed. Every bird I have ever shot with #5 lead has been visibly impacted harder than anyone I've ever shot with Hevi 7.

Think about this, I make a snow ball out of nice soft snow and then make one pack it together and let it freeze.  Both are identical size.  You stand 10 yards from me and I will throw the soft snow ball at you and then the frozen packed one.  Which will hit harder?  The one with give or the one that stays solid?

Soft core bullets for deer is a totally different thing because it deals with expansion and not just punching a hole through.  Also, the FMJ will hit harder it just does not do as much damage because it does not expand.  The mushroom is what you want so it will use all its energy for knock down and damage. Just like self defense bullets.

Lead shot will kill and there is no one that can say otherwise.  If you want to shoot lead then shoot it.  If you want to shoot heavier than lead then shoot it.  Good luck!

I totally agree with a person shooting whatever they choose. The snowball doesn't make any sense to me. A soft snowball is going to bust apart on impact where as a frozen snowball will not and obviously hit harder. Where talking #5 lead vs #7 hevi here, the lead is not going to bust apart on impact. Both are going to penetrate, now lets take into account the hevi is doing 1090 fps. while the lead is doing 1200 fps. The #5 lead penetrates 1.92", and the Hevi 7 1.47" in BG at 40 yards. So which one hits harder?

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

Well I have personally witnessed Hevi-13 #7's out penetrating a lead copper plated #5 turkey load on real live turkeys.  That's why I don't go on what the charts say about lead 5's, 4's or 6's when it comes to penetration data.  They lie.   

[darn2ten]

Well I have personally witnessed Hevi-13 #7's out penetrating a lead copper plated #5 turkey load on real live turkeys.  That's why I don't go on what the charts say about lead 5's, 4's or 6's when it comes to penetration data.  They lie.

Reckon that could be, but penetration still doesn't mean that a #7 with less surface area than a #5 hits harder. And like you at comparable yardages out around the 40 mark I have witnessed #5 lead performing better than #7 Hevi. Imo.

[Punisher]

Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration.  Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.

This is exactly right, and the exact reason I believe lead actually hits harder than HTL. Think about it this way. What would you rather deer hunt with, a full metal jacket or a soft point bullet? One is just going to poke a narrow hole straight thru while the other is going to mushroom and expend it energy on target. I've killed birds with #7 Hevi and wasn't impressed. Every bird I have ever shot with #5 lead has been visibly impacted harder than anyone I've ever shot with Hevi 7.

Think about this, I make a snow ball out of nice soft snow and then make one pack it together and let it freeze.  Both are identical size.  You stand 10 yards from me and I will throw the soft snow ball at you and then the frozen packed one.  Which will hit harder?  The one with give or the one that stays solid?

Soft core bullets for deer is a totally different thing because it deals with expansion and not just punching a hole through.  Also, the FMJ will hit harder it just does not do as much damage because it does not expand.  The mushroom is what you want so it will use all its energy for knock down and damage. Just like self defense bullets.

Lead shot will kill and there is no one that can say otherwise.  If you want to shoot lead then shoot it.  If you want to shoot heavier than lead then shoot it.  Good luck!

Amen to that! I shoot both HTL and lead and know that both have their limitations. Shoot what you want and keep shots at an ethical range and everything will be alright. 

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

Well I have personally witnessed Hevi-13 #7's out penetrating a lead copper plated #5 turkey load on real live turkeys.  That's why I don't go on what the charts say about lead 5's, 4's or 6's when it comes to penetration data.  They lie.

Reckon that could be, but penetration still doesn't mean that a #7 with less surface area than a #5 hits harder. And like you at comparable yardages out around the 40 mark I have witnessed #5 lead performing better than #7 Hevi. Imo.

That's just like Ford vs Chevy.  Your mileage may vary.  I go by what I have firsthand knowledge of instead of what others may say.  That's all a person can do.  You can shoot lead if you wish.  I'll stick with my Hevi-13 #7's and 6's.  I'm a believer in what they can actually do when it comes to penetrating a turkey.  I got the photos to back it up as well.  Hevi-13 #7's will blow clean thru the head and neck a of a bird at 40yds like it was butter.

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

And to set the record staight, I could care less about how hard my pellets hit a bird at 40yds or whatever distance we are talking about.  What I care most about is how well those pellets penetrate.  Penetration is what kills a turkey and not knock down power.

[blueridgegobbler]

Its simple shoot the lead into something comparable to bone that's what we are trying to destroy(skull neck bone etc.) it will deform bottom line, ballistic gel tests are comparable to soft tissue. That being said I have personally seen #7 hevi shoot completely thru turkey heads. I have also killed them with lead ranging from 4 thru 7.5s and there is no comparison to HTL. Lead is a good load for sure and will always kill turkeys but I prefer to step down from 5 lead to 7 hevi gain pattern density and penetration. Think about the hunting arrows used today micro diameter that weighs the same as old school aluminum, micro diameter will out penetrate them due to the decreased surface area of the shaft.

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

Hev-13 3" 2oz 7's and I'll just say 40yds to keep things civil here.





Some pellets even went all the way thru an out the other side of the breast. 

I can show you them as well.  Lead 5's wouldn't even come close. 

I would hate to see what my 835 and Star Dot choke would have done shooting my 300325 3.5" 2.25oz #7 loads.  That bird would have been burnt toast instead of just toast. 

And that was a 24lb bird, too, weighed by the MO Dept of Conservation on their digital scale.  That bird died in mid air.

[3" 870 Shell Shucker]

Apples and Oranges.  Two different materials with different properties.

Lead works....and now it works better due to pattern density, not pellet density.

A Lead pellet is still a Lead pellet.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  It is what it is.

I love Lead #5's if the pattern density is good enough.  All kinds of wild game has fallen to Lead #5's throughout the last century or two.  It's easy on your wallet.  It's easy on chokes and barrels too.

[davisd9]

Apples and Oranges.  Two different materials with different properties.

Lead works....and now it works better due to pattern density, not pellet density.

A Lead pellet is still a Lead pellet.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  It is what it is.

I love Lead #5's if the pattern density is good enough.  All kinds of wild game has fallen to Lead #5's throughout the last century or two.  It's easy on your wallet.  It's easy on chokes and barrels too.

Good post


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[ILIKEHEVI-13]

Look guys, I'm not hear to tell anyone what to shoot.  You folks that want to shoot these Long Beard loads by all means have fun with it and use them.  But don't for a second think they will take the place of htl loads.  These loads are still lead no matter how much sugar you try and coat them.  Know your limits and don't try and think that the money you save shooting them vs Hevi-13 loads will get you farther killing distances like they are trying to claim.  That's no different than some folks who shoot lead #7 turkey loads.  Your gonna have a yardage limit when it comes to penetration real quickly regardless of how many shot you put in a 10" circle. 

[chatterbox]

Apples and Oranges.  Two different materials with different properties.

Lead works....and now it works better due to pattern density, not pellet density.

A Lead pellet is still a Lead pellet.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  It is what it is.

I love Lead #5's if the pattern density is good enough.  All kinds of wild game has fallen to Lead #5's throughout the last century or two.  It's easy on your wallet.  It's easy on chokes and barrels too.

Good post


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yup. Very well stated.

[turkey_slayer]

Apples and Oranges.  Two different materials with different properties.

Lead works....and now it works better due to pattern density, not pellet density.

A Lead pellet is still a Lead pellet.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  It is what it is.

I love Lead #5's if the pattern density is good enough.  All kinds of wild game has fallen to Lead #5's throughout the last century or two.  It's easy on your wallet.  It's easy on chokes and barrels too.

I killed a boat load with 5 and 6 lead. A few a little further than I thought and had to choke em out. My first one was killed with a 20 gauge #7.5 dove load at 33 yards lol. I then moved up to Hevi and now been throwing tss for 4 years. Don't really need it and don't use it cause of its extended range capabilities as my average kills are in the upper 20ish yard range.  It's just nice throwing several hundred pellets at their head and not worrying about manufacturers changing components. Nothing will score barrels if loaded properly. Lead works. Always has and always will.

[darn2ten]

Hev-13 3" 2oz 7's and I'll just say 40yds to keep things civil here.





Some pellets even went all the way thru an out the other side of the breast. 

I can show you them as well.  Lead 5's wouldn't even come close. 

I would hate to see what my 835 and Star Dot choke would have done shooting my 300325 3.5" 2.25oz #7 loads.  That bird would have been burnt toast instead of just toast. 

And that was a 24lb bird, too, weighed by the MO Dept of Conservation on their digital scale.  That bird died in mid air.

A lead 5 wouldn't of come close to what? Again, how dead is dead. I guess that maybe I should start posting pics of all the birds that I've killed with 5 lead. Guess what, there just as dead as that one. My argument was at 40 yds. I never said anything any other way. I'm not in to long range turkey sniping.  At 40 yds. penetration is a none issue with 5 lead. If I had to kill turkey at 50+ yds. I'd get a rifle.

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

Your the one that started talking about a lead 5 hits harder.  That's knockdown power.  And again, knockdown power or hitting hard has very little to do with killing turkeys.  Penetration is the key word on what dies and what lives.

And yes lead 5's will kill turkeys.  Nobody is disputing that fact.  But lead again won't kill as well, or as good, or as cleanly, or however you want to try and say it as htl shot.