Interesting debate going on in Missouri

[Turkey Beard]

I've been following this thread (and, thanks, Hooksfan, for the 2 of us being civil!  Computer communication can take weird turns by mistake) and I feel that Neill_Prater has hit the nail on the head.  I even remember Tom Kelly writing about moving Alabama's fall season so that it butted up against the spring season and thought that it might have merit.  He said that the birds would be bigger, it would be easier to identify jakes from hens/jennies, it would protect the turkeys from the folks who killed one while deer hunting (you would have to specifically be TURKEY hunting, not deer hunting & plug a bird), and probably a few other points.  If we did that in Missouri, we'd start hunting them in mid-March (the 1 month "fall" season) and roll right into early May.  Interesting proposal but not one I'd embrace right now.  Again, Neill_Prater sums up the whole debate well from where I stand.

[Hooksfan]

Turkeybeard,
I'm glad we both understand that we are both just simply stating our opinions--No reason to be uncivil unless I believed no one else was entitled to an opinion other than me.

Neil,
Your dream scenario for a turkey season in Missouri is nearly identical to mine. Can't say that I can find a good argument against any of your ideas.

GSlam
Never did say I was anti-archery--Thought I had covered that when I said I had participated in the early Kansas archery season.  It just doesn't make sense to me to accept a greater challenge and then seek regulations that would reduce that challenge by having first shot at unpressured birds.  No one is arguing against archery hunting here--just preferential treatment.

[Punisher]

And like I said, not trying to be uncivil in any way, have a special archery season the week following the close of the firearm season.  Sometimes that could be the best hunting anyways and the majority (which are the hunters using fireams) might accept the idea better of having a spring turkey archery season if they got first chance at the turkeys.  Just an idea.

[GSLAM95]

GSlam
Never did say I was anti-archery--Thought I had covered that when I said I had participated in the early Kansas archery season.  It just doesn't make sense to me to accept a greater challenge and then seek regulations that would reduce that challenge by having first shot at unpressured birds.  No one is arguing against archery hunting here--just preferential treatment.

You took advantage/"first shot" of the early archery season in Kansas yet you don't feel the need for one in MO.   You admitted that archery hunting turkeys is more of a difficult challenge than with firearm so why would you be against giving them an extra "preferential treatment" week to fill their tag if they get less shot opportunities per hunt? 

I am not in favor of the early archery season.  While a lot of folks cite the increased pressure as a factor for why they oppose it, and I agree that it will have an impact--especially on public ground--increased pressure is not why I oppose it.
I am not in favor of it mostly on the principle that I do not believe archery hunters need to have an early season.  I have hunted in Kansas during the early archery season and would likely do it in Missouri as well, but I don't think we need it. If folks chase them with a bow for the increased challenge, then why would they need to have the advantage of an early season?

If you bow hunt spring gobblers or have in the past then you know there are usually quite fewer shot opportunities compared to hunting with a gun.  With it being agreed upon that archery is more difficult I don't understand the reasoning for wanting to go against the early archery season.  Pure greed, selfishness or disrespect to archery hunters is the only reason I could see one being against giving them the extra week of opportunity.
Perhaps some hunters disliked change in Kansas & Nebraska as well but it appears to be working fine there and it could in many other states as well.  As I mentioned earlier, some just simply will be against change no matter what it is as they are just so used to seeing it be one certain way for years on end..

Remember when you pointed out in your first post what you thought of most bowhunters?

I also believe that coyotes will be the greatest beneficiary of an early archery season.  I believe if most folks were honest they would admit there is a high wound rate here--Not necessarily for a lot of folks that I know who are deadly with a bow and live and breath turkey hunting.  But  I would argue they would be in the minority and there would be a lot of clueless goofs "feeding the coyotes".

Your labeling the average archery turkey hunter as a "clueless goof" unless he is a person you know in the above statement, that is what led to my opinion.  To me it show's an overall dislike to the archery turkey hunter. 
I was strictly bow for many years but as I mentioned earlier I like firearm hunting as well and would welcome the extended opportunity of an early archery seson.

Your only basis for disliking the proposed early archery season holds no merit with me as it appears to be more of jealous greed for keeping a group that you show overall dislike and unapproval of out of the woods before the gun hunters.
Perhaps I am reading into your post wrong but I can only go by what is typed.  I don't see any uncivil conversation as you mentioned either other than you calling bowhunters "clueless goofs"!  As you stated though everyone is entitled their opinion on the subject matter at hand.
It is somewhat strange to me that if one is agreeing with the way you feel on the subject it is an "opinion" but if we point out the name calling or labeling of a group and give a different opinion of what should be done in regards to the proposed early archery turkey season we are being "uncivil".

[GobbleNut]

I am another one with a  "no dog in this fight" mentality about it.  I think the all day hunting question is a no-brainer.  That is an anitiquated regulation that has no basis in biological reasoning,...and should be done away with. 

The question of allowing a segment of the public the opportunity to hunt before another is a different matter altogether, and is a bit more complicated.  I think that most of us would agree that allowing kids the opportunity to get the first chance at game is one thing.  However, there are obviously varying opinions here about allowing adults, because they make a choice to use a certain kind of weapon type, that same privilege. 

It could legitimately be argued that a really good archer, sitting in an enclosed blind using decoys to attract gobblers to point-blank range, and with little or no chance of being seen, may be just as effective at killing turkeys as a shotgunner.  Maybe even moreso than a gun hunter who chooses to hunt turkeys with no blind or decoys. 

So do the shotgunners without a pop-up blind or decoys deserve a set-aside season for themselves?  ...And if so, then what about the guys that decide they want to use a pellet gun, slingshot, spear, or throw rocks? 

That argument, in and of itself, is not enough for me, though.  Adding it to the fact that spring gobbler hunting is, at its basis, all about calling,....and that the more "experiences" a gobbler has with people calling to them the more difficult they become to call (except, of course, for those "turkey whisperers" we have here as members), then the combination of the two arguments begins to get some traction.  If you allow certain hunters to go out and call and/or decoy turkeys for a length of time before the others, at what point in the "turkey education" process does that go from being a reasonable advantage because of a weapons choice to being unfair to the remaining groups of hunters?

After all, spring gobbler hunting is about a hunter(s) attracting a gobbler(s) by calling, or decoying, (or waiting).  For me, getting the turkey to come is the attraction, not the weapon choice. 

So the question ultimately becomes,...."Is it fair to give one group of hunters an advantage over another group solely on the basis of a weapons choice,...and knowing that giving the one group an advantage may, in essence, decrease the chances of success of the other group when their turn comes?"  ....Or is the proper course of action to say,..."Everybody plays by the same rules,...choose your weapon and go get in the game?".....

[GSLAM95]

With the synopsis you just gave GobbleNut ask yourself why more states are considering allowing an early bow season for turkey & why does every state DNR out there give bowhunters an earlier season and usually a longer season than the gun season for other big game such as elk, deer etc.? 
Why...... Because it is more difficult to get an animal within bow range rather than gun range.  The chances of success are less than that of a gun...  Look at any statistics from any DNR throughout the country...

[GobbleNut]

There is no doubt that bowhunting, in the majority of cases, is more difficult than an equivalent hunt with a gun.  However, the reasons for hunting season lengths, weapons restrictions, and hunt timing are many and vary with different game types and the corresponding biologies of those game species, as well as the varying attitudes of game managers and the hunting public in each state. 

I have no problem with states establishing archery hunts prior to gun hunts as long as everybody involved realizes and accepts the notion that if enough people participate in those hunts, they are very likely to affect the quality of the hunting for those that come after them,...at least in public-lands hunting situations. 

How would you feel about having the hunt such that bow or gun hunters could hunt the first week, and then the second week would be reserved only for bowhunters?  Would that be satisfactory? ...And if not, why not?

[GSLAM95]

How would you feel about having the hunt such that bow or gun hunters could hunt the first week, and then the second week would be reserved only for bowhunters?  Would that be satisfactory? ...And if not, why not?

From what I am reading in several post the obvious comes out more with each post.  It is the gun hunters that can not stand it that a person with a lesser weapon get first crack at those spring gobblers.  It was the same scenario with many species of big game across the country in years past. 

Personally I don't care what week they add for bowhunting as long it adds another week into the season.  The obvious is to make the season start a week earlier as many other states have found it to be more productive than later.  How many of you will complain about having to hunt henned up flocks if it happened to be the case?

Another piece of public information for some who may not know, MO has already been implementing an archery only week for many years the first week of the season at the Caney Mountain conservation area and other places in MO. 
I hunted there myself this 2012 spring season and talked to several of the workers there.  I think they would attest to the success the program has had in the park as gun hunters have a great success ratio the second and third week of the season.

[Hooksfan]

I am another one with a  "no dog in this fight" mentality about it.  I think the all day hunting question is a no-brainer.  That is an anitiquated regulation that has no basis in biological reasoning,...and should be done away with. 

The question of allowing a segment of the public the opportunity to hunt before another is a different matter altogether, and is a bit more complicated.  I think that most of us would agree that allowing kids the opportunity to get the first chance at game is one thing.  However, there are obviously varying opinions here about allowing adults, because they make a choice to use a certain kind of weapon type, that same privilege. 

It could legitimately be argued that a really good archer, sitting in an enclosed blind using decoys to attract gobblers to point-blank range, and with little or no chance of being seen, may be just as effective at killing turkeys as a shotgunner.  Maybe even moreso than a gun hunter who chooses to hunt turkeys with no blind or decoys. 

So do the shotgunners without a pop-up blind or decoys deserve a set-aside season for themselves?  ...And if so, then what about the guys that decide they want to use a pellet gun, slingshot, spear, or throw rocks? 

That argument, in and of itself, is not enough for me, though.  Adding it to the fact that spring gobbler hunting is, at its basis, all about calling,....and that the more "experiences" a gobbler has with people calling to them the more difficult they become to call (except, of course, for those "turkey whisperers" we have here as members), then the combination of the two arguments begins to get some traction.  If you allow certain hunters to go out and call and/or decoy turkeys for a length of time before the others, at what point in the "turkey education" process does that go from being a reasonable advantage because of a weapons choice to being unfair to the remaining groups of hunters?

After all, spring gobbler hunting is about a hunter(s) attracting a gobbler(s) by calling, or decoying, (or waiting).  For me, getting the turkey to come is the attraction, not the weapon choice. 

So the question ultimately becomes,...."Is it fair to give one group of hunters an advantage over another group solely on the basis of a weapons choice,...and knowing that giving the one group an advantage may, in essence, decrease the chances of success of the other group when their turn comes?"  ....Or is the proper course of action to say,..."Everybody plays by the same rules,...choose your weapon and go get in the game?".....

By far the best post in this thread

GSlam,
Either I'm sending a fuzzy signal or you are getting a fuzzy reception, because we have totally managed to misunderstand each other.  I am NOT anti-archery--Two of the three biggest bucks I have ever killed were with a bow and I have participated in other states early turkey archery seasons and would participate in a Missouri Spring archery season if they had one.  I just don't think it is fair to pick one group and grant an early season.
I refer to alot of folks as clueless goofs because they are.....ummmm clueless goofs.  Just because you put a bow in a clueless goofs hands doesn't mean he has metamorphosed out of his clueless goofness.  Granted, there are probably a higher percentage of clueless goofs running around with shotguns.
The weapon of choice does not create a clueless goof.  The clueless goof creates the clueless goof.
I know and hunt with several folks that are more deadly with a bow than most folks will ever become with a shotgun.  These folks are going to get it done with or without a special early season--They don't need one. 
My stand is that bow hunting turkeys should be reserved for folks that have reached a point of proficiency that they can do it with as much or more precision than folks blasting them with shotguns.
My opinion is that an early archery season will result in many people who have not reached that point of proficiency (clueless goofs) chasing them around and, yes, wounding alot of birds---Way higher percentage than those wounded with shotguns.

Also, my opinion is that a comparison of deer hunting Fall early archery seasons and Spring  early season for turkeys is not a good comparison.
Neither is comparing Kansas and Nebraska to Missouri simply because of the human and turkey population dynamics at play--And that is where the folks who make an argument about the extra pressure have a valid point.

[Turkey Beard]

Another piece of public information for some who may not know, MO has already been implementing an archery only week for many years the first week of the season at the Caney Mountain conservation area and other places in MO. 
I hunted there myself this 2012 spring season and talked to several of the workers there.  I think they would attest to the success the program has had in the park as gun hunters have a great success ratio the second and third week of the season.

GS, I hadn't heard of this.  Are you saying that it's bow only during the existing week 1 and then existing rules during week 2 & 3 or are you saying that they've opened an additional week for bows only on these places?  Thanks.

[Jay]

jb,
I agree that most folks will still hunt only morning and that is when most birds will be killed.  I guess I just don't like being told that I can't go in the evening if I wanted to even on private property.  Also, being a parent that shares custody, it would increase the opportunity to take my kids after school on the afternoon visitations I have during the week.
And, I would also be able to take a lot of my students who have an interest in hunting.

That's the whole story right there. For those that can hunt early good. For those that can't, you are screwed. If I pay good money to hunt out of state in Missouri, quitting at 1 pm isn't a turn on, so I don't out of state, unless it's an all day deal. I might not shoot a bunch after 1, but many times have set up my hunt for the following day, but what I see from 1pm-dark.

[Punisher]

Not to make enemies here, but GSLAM95 I am not for an early archery season in any state, including my own state of Kentucky or Missouri, since I hunt it also.  I do not think the matter is gun hunters against archery hunters here as much to me as it is catering to a minority of hunters that CHOOSE to use archery equipment.  Turkey hunting cannot be compared to deer hunting in my opinion because of the different stages of archery deerhunting (pre-rut, rut, and post rut) and all the stages have their unique ways to pursue the game.  Turkey hunting basically consists of a three to four week window, at the most, when the hunting is at its best.  I see no reason why a minority of hunters who CHOOSE to use a certain type of weapon should be granted any extra priveledge for that matter.  Where I hunt at the turkeys are already heavily pressured enough right now without adding an extra week (or however much time would be allowed) of pressure.  Keeps getting tougher every year to tag out on longbeards.  I am not against archery hunting because I probably bowhunt whitetails as much or more than anybody myself.  I just hope KY never brings this proposal to the table. 

[guesswho]

The down side to an early archery season is the fact that the woods will be crowded with non bow hunters with bow and arrows.  It's just an invite for unskilled people who have no business trying to kill an animal with a bow to sling arrows.  I'd have no problem letting bow hunters get a week head start if you could keep the one week a year bow hunters out of the woods.   You know the ones who would shoot Friday afternoon before season opens, then hunt for a week and put their bow back in the closet for 51 weeks.

[Hooksfan]

The down side to an early archery season is the fact that the woods will be crowded with non bow hunters with bow and arrows.  It's just an invite for unskilled people who have no business trying to kill an animal with a bow to sling arrows.  I'd have no problem letting bow hunters get a week head start if you could keep the one week a year bow hunters out of the woods.   You know the ones who would shoot Friday afternoon before season opens, then hunt for a week and put their bow back in the closet for 51 weeks.

That is my sentiments exactly!!  Except you didn't call em clueless goofs

[stinkpickle]

The down side to an early archery season is the fact that the woods will be crowded with non bow hunters with bow and arrows.  It's just an invite for unskilled people who have no business trying to kill an animal with a bow to sling arrows.  I'd have no problem letting bow hunters get a week head start if you could keep the one week a year bow hunters out of the woods.   You know the ones who would shoot Friday afternoon before season opens, then hunt for a week and put their bow back in the closet for 51 weeks.

That'd be me!  If they make a turkey season for a specific weapon only, I'll use that sumbeech.  Besides, it's getting harder and harder for me to convince the MDC that I'm young enough for a youth tag, too.