Closet Reapers??

[crow]

I ain't touching that one

[Greg Massey]

I did win a few trophies showing horses as a kid ... some of my best memories ....

[Kyle_Ott]

Turkey hunting was once a venture that required adaptability and skill to consistently fill tags.  The learning curve was steep.  Subjecting oneself to inexplicable failure dozens and dozens of times was requisite for completing it.  It was an honorable endeavor without cheap success.

Turkey hunting today is now easier than ever.  From the guns and TSS, to blinds and ultra life-like decoys, to the technological advantage digital, handheld maps provide it's truly mindblowing.  Combine that with the biological and scientific data hunters (the good ones, at least) now use as factors in their set-up and calling strategies and it's hard to comprehend how far some of you guys in the "if it's legal, it's cool" camp will allow things to go.

The most ironic part of it is watching hunting laws continue to be liberalized to facilitate "opportunity" for folks.  Seeing the most conservative folks in the political spectrum embrace woke, b u l l s h i t tactics is pretty frightening.

At the end of the day, the most skill-less, tactic for killing turkeys is reaping/fanning.  I could give my 7 year old every tool in the world except a fan and he would not be able to go to the woods and kill a gobbbler by himself.  But if I gave him a fan and his .410, I'd give that rascal a 70% chance of being able to kill one (he's already killed more turkeys at 7 than some of the folks reading this post).  And the harsh, undeniable reality is, it's just that damn easy to kill a turkey with a fan. 

We should all be able to agree that during this time of decreased poult production, increased hunting pressure, and record harvests, it should be illegal to employ high percentage tactics.  If turkeys were everywhere and number were increasing, it would be a different conversation.  But that's not where we're at and I think we should all be as vocal and engaged with our respective state DNR's to make this tactic ILLEGAL.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

[Roost 1]

Turkey hunting was once a venture that required adaptability and skill to consistently fill tags.  The learning curve was steep.  Subjecting oneself to inexplicable failure dozens and dozens of times was requisite for completing it.  It was an honorable endeavor without cheap success.

Turkey hunting today is now easier than ever.  From the guns and TSS, to blinds and ultra life-like decoys, to the technological advantage digital, handheld maps provide it's truly mindblowing.  Combine that with the biological and scientific data hunters (the good ones, at least) now use as factors in their set-up and calling strategies and it's hard to comprehend how far some of you guys in the "if it's legal, it's cool" camp will allow things to go.

The most ironic part of it is watching hunting laws continue to be liberalized to facilitate "opportunity" for folks.  Seeing the most conservative folks in the political spectrum embrace woke, b u l l s h i t tactics is pretty frightening.

At the end of the day, the most skill-less, tactic for killing turkeys is reaping/fanning.  I could give my 7 year old every tool in the world except a fan and he would not be able to go to the woods and kill a gobbbler by himself.  But if I gave him a fan and his .410, I'd give that rascal a 70% chance of being able to kill one (he's already killed more turkeys at 7 than some of the folks reading this post).  And the harsh, undeniable reality is, it's just that damn easy to kill a turkey with a fan. 

We should all be able to agree that during this time of decreased poult production, increased hunting pressure, and record harvests, it should be illegal to employ high percentage tactics.  If turkeys were everywhere and number were increasing, it would be a different conversation.  But that's not where we're at and I think we should all be as vocal and engaged with our respective state DNR's to make this tactic ILLEGAL.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Another great post!!

[Ihuntoldschool]

 Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault. 

[guesswho]

Dang

[Prospector]

Well, I wanna make this point. This is assuming we see the truth in THP/Pinhoti videos: They ain't using ultra realistic decoys or  blinds. The THP guys guns look like several in my safe ( not hi dollar) and while Dave is shooting Benelli, it's a 20 with hand loaded TSS 9s ( not max dram 10-12s with 7s TSS) And most of its public ( which I will agree shouldn't be "pimped"). However, those guys find success without all those crutches so called hunters limp along on. If all that was taken away I believe a large majority of the Turkey hunting population would stay home... and it wouldn't matter as much if all those spots were revealed.... Just food for thought and a little pot stirring.

[El Pavo Grande]

Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault.

Is this a serious post?

I would lean this way.  Some responsibility has to lie with the person reaping or sitting behind a full strut decoy, many that look very life like.  That's one reason it shouldn't be legal to reap.  Imagine you are sitting at a field edge, higher grass with break of a hill 25-30 steps away.  Early morning, turkey gobbled not long before, just out of sight.  You heard him drumming.  A few minutes later he goes quiet.   A little bit later a real fan tops the break, and then a gobbler in full strut tops the the hill.   Maybe the sun is in your eyes.  Maybe it's a little foggy.    Not a person on here for at least a split second wouldn't think it's a real gobbler.   Not saying you don't figure it out, but horrible mistakes can happen fast.  So, I believe in that case, the guy crawling behind the decoy should receive the brunt of the blame.  That's being brutally honest.... Just don't do it!!

[Marc]

Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault.

Is this a serious post?

I do not completely disagree...

I remember a professor talking about hunting accidents, that were largely due to the human brain often times seeing what it wants to see.  The discussion took place around several incidents that were well-known.  One was a girl wearing a purple jacket shot in her yard wearing white mittens.  Young kid killed her under the supervision of a guide.

Imagine someone learning to turkey hunt...  Has not killed a bird yet...  Realistic decoy with a turkey fan???

And...  I have known of several people that have been shot hunting.  Couple of turkey hunters, my father quail hunting, another friend self-inflicted while duck hunting (lost his foot)...  None of this made the "hunting news."  I know my fathers incident was not reported anywhere as a hunting accident...

So how would we know if more people are getting shot???

[eggshell]

I have deliberately not brought this up, because most of the posters in this thread already know it and I don't want to dwell on it. People will just get tired of hearing it and my story becomes ineffective. The last few post have convinced me I should say something.

Now I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has been shot turkey hunting and fought for his life, went through a year of healing and fought the legal battles over health care charges. Listen to me and listen well, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY SHOT YOU TAKE, PERIOD! Where it ends up is the shooter's responsibility, stupidity on the other end does not matter, know what you are shooting. Deflection of this responsibility will not hold up in a court of law, I know this for 100% fact. I lived this nightmare and almost gave my life to it. I watched and worried in desperation as companies came after me for money and threatened to ruin my financial life. Never assume the shooter will pay for everything, mine never paid a dime. So tell me why I should take any responsibility when all I was doing was walking a trail and using a turkey call (all perfectly legal)? My shooter was hunting legally, but made a horrible mistake. I was the one who nearly died and suffered for months if not years, am I to blame? Safety is issue number one to me and will always be. Hunt with me and not practice safety and I will tell you the hunt is over, no discussion. I can not even stand to be around other hunters and I leave soon as I hear someone calling or see someone. I trust very few people. It will most definitely steal much of the joy out of your hunting and haunt you forever. My accident was never reported to anyone except those who know me and those I have told. The local cops were called and they just shrugged it off as an accident and never even reported it to wildlife. I told wildlife officials but no one ever recorded it, you can not find any record of it. How many are out there like mine.

Feel free to debate all you want, but at the end of the day my request is we all ask this one simple question....Is a turkey worth dying for?

So, call me a whiner, complainer and self-righteous if you please, but I wake up and call myself blessed by God to be alive. If my opinions seem dictative and narrow minded it is because I know beyond a doubt what lies on the other side of unsafe behavior, it is pain, tragedy, sadness and despair. with that said, we can not legislate responsible behaviors, but we can limit tools we know encourage unsafe behaviors. It's not about taking liberty away it's about protecting the sanctity of human life. Thanks for reading my whining,selfish and biased rant.

[GobbleNut]

Since we are all clarifying our positions on matters, when talking about the use of any sort of hunting tactic that might be legal in a locale, I boil down my opinions on it with three basic questions:  (again, speaking only about hunting-related issues, not biological or environmental ones)

Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe?  (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)
Does the use of this tactic fall into the category of "fair chase"?  (again, a subjective question, but generally based on some level of consensus among hunters)
Will the widescale use of this tactic jeopardize turkey populations to a degree that restricting its use needs to be considered  (objective, but requires verifiable evidence, which may or may not be difficult to assess).

Of these three questions, the last two fall into the same category, but the one that concerns me the most is the last.  That is, are the tactics we are allowing to be used resulting in a greater percentage of any segment of the turkey population to be killed than should take place in order to maintain the viability of the resource?  I never even questioned that possibility until the advent of the use of male turkey decoys and fans in spring hunting, but I have personally seen/witnessed enough evidence that I have become concerned that our male turkey population may be being over-harvested in places as a result of the use of this tactic.  Perhaps more empirical evidence is needed to support my concerns about it, but those concerns exist, nevertheless.

As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

[crow]

Bo, did you read "Old Pro Turkey Hunter" by Gene Nunnery

"One Man Game " by Kenny Morgan, and of course "Tenth Legion" Tom Kelly

[Paulmyr]

Here's my take on male decoys and especially strutters and fair chase. The dominant gobbler/gobblers in an area "will" react to male/ strutting decoys in their territory especially if he see's a hen decoy or hears a hunter calling from nearby the decoy. He has no choice. He doesn't decide he's going to come over an take a look or pick a fight. He reacts on instinct. It's in his genes. Ha has to do it. It's how he became a dominant gobbler. If he didn't he would be just another subordinate sulking around looking for scraps.

When you deploy male decoys and harvest a gobbler inevitably it will be a turkey with these aggressive dominant genes. Your not calling him in for the shot, your killing an animal that has no choice in the matter.

Hen decoys may have the same effect by playing on sexual urges as does calling but not nearly as much as male decoys. A hen decoy won't pull a dominant gobbler away from his harem as is often the case when a male decoys are deployed solo with or in tandem with a hen. Your using a visual cue to trigger an instinctual reacting forcing the dominant gobbler to atleast come and investigate and most likely more. In my book that's not hunting. Until the advent and use of these decoys, dominant gobblers were untouchable until late season unless the whole flock came along.

Some refer to decoys in waterfowl hunting as an attempt to justify thier use in turkey hunting. Apples and oranges. Decoys for waterfowl play on the social nature of ducks and geese and the possibility of safety. They have a choice whether on not to join the birds on the water or in the field. The dominant gobbler does not. He must react. It's who he is!

Then there's the dominant gobbler theory. Simply stated, taking a dominant gobbler too early in the breeding cycle messes the works up by prolonging the breeding cycle within the flock causing initial attempts at egg laying to be delayed by the hens that have not bred yet. Causing incubation and polt rearing to be a drawn out affair spreading the hatch over a longer period of time making eggs and polts more vulnerable to predation than if the the incubation/hatch cycle were concentrated into a smaller window of time. If all the eggs get put on the ground around the same time the predators will only be able to eat so many eggs/polts before they are large enough to better avoid predation. Draw this period of incubation and initial polt rearing out over an extended period of time allows predators access to more. Example, A raccoon with a belly full of eggs isn't going looking for more eggs to to eat. When he gets hungry he'll look for more eggs. If the period of time when eggs are available to him is prolonged he'll be able to eat more eggs.

Horse hockey is the reply to this theory by some. Hen turkey breed with whatever ever males are available. My question to them is " why then all this pecking order stuff every day of the year if not to establish a hierarchy in the breeding structure of the flock?

There's no scientific data at this point to dispell or confirm the feasibility of the dominant gobbler theory but it makes sense to me.

That's my opinion on the the matter. Your more than welcome to use decoys when and where you choose if it's legal but I don't have to condon or like your use of them and when the subject is brought up I have no qualms about stating my position on their use whether you like it or not.

As far as reaping goes, my opinion above stands the same with an addition leaning towards the possible ignorance of those deploying the tactic in certain situations.

[mookyj]

...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe?  (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....

...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

Given the propensity of news media to underreport any substantive facts other than the hunter was shot and whatever medical resources are brought to bear, or report nothing more than a paragraph, and defaults to describing it as an accident. I follow these stories for years now, and the follow-ups are dismal for any further explanations unless a trial ensues and a verdict is reached. Unless one has access to the law enforcement databases you have to foil everything to learn anything further regarding the event. The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance. Wildlife agencies and law enforcement are not tough on these events as they are seldom prosecuted with the victim's interest in mind.  There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...

[GobbleNut]

...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe?  (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....

...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance.   There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...

I will preface this rebuttal by stating that I, too, am not trying to be snarky...just stating my opinion based on my observations and research. 

I took your advice and "Googled it" again, as it has been a while since the last time I did it.  I must assume my Google is different from your Google (living out here in the wild west makes anything possible, I suppose) since I perused quite a number of pages looking objectively for any support for the possibility that I am being willfully ignorant in my stance that, as of now, fanning and/or reaping have not been shown to be any more dangerous than other activities associated with turkey hunting accidents.  From my cursory inspection of those pages of reports on turkey hunting accidents, reaping/fanning fell far behind other causes such as mistaken for game (not reaping/fanning related) and accidental discharge of firearms accidents. 

I must also assume from your comments that you possibly believe there is a nefarious conspiracy by law enforcement, authorities, and/or wildlife agencies to intentionally not report, or otherwise cover up, turkey hunting accidents involving fanning/reaping while, on the other hand, there are all sorts of other hunting accident reports on Google.  Perhaps all of these agencies are in cahoots with the makers of all the reaping/fanning/decoy equipment and aids on the market because preserving their product sales is way more important than saving the lives of the supposed myriad hunters that theoretically have been shot while taking part in this practice...and that have supposedly not been reported.  Simply put, if there was any significant correlation between turkey hunting accidents and reaping/fanning, we would most certainly have seen actions taken to stop the practice by now.  In addition, if and when such a correlation is shown, I will be the first to run up the red flag.

And finally, I am not here to defend reaping/fanning.  I would like to see the practice eliminated because I believe turkey gobblers are too susceptible to it, may result in the overharvest of our gobbler populations, and is very questionable in terms of whether it constitutes fair chase...not to mention the possibility that the practice has resulted in an overall reduction of hunting opportunity in many places.  I repeat, if you want me to jump on board the "let's outlaw reaping/fanning because it is too unsafe" train, you STILL have to show this old boy the hard evidence to support your position.  I most certainly did not find it in my Google search. 

...On the other hand, if you want to eliminate the practice based on the concept of fair chase and possibly jeopardizing turkey populations, I am totally on board.