For those wondering about declining populations

[Roost 1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MyOB8N9Dso

[Hoot 000]

Good pod cast glad you put that up most of what he said I already knew .Turkey population has really gotten  bad where I live in South Ms.l have been fussing with Forrest service about burning at the peak nesting times.Talked to head biologist never got a response back.listen care ful to what he said about hens renesting and predators, some people think that changing the season, bag limits etc.going to fix it .Not. It's more to it than that predators are at an all time  high and I know hunting turkey's has become a huge sport and we know why because it's a  disease right.Dont think manipulation of season will do much as predator control but predators raise off so fast and also getting enough people and the Game and Fish to help .As for me I have always hunted Public it would be harder to do much good. My best days hunting this great bird are behind and if younger hunters don't start getting  involved and apply pressure to the people at the state wildlife agency in your state its going to be like  it was  when I was a small boy my dad would scout and ride for days to try and find an old gobbler.

[rifleman]

     I found his remarks to be very interesting particularily with the feeding cycles, loss of nests/eggs, and maybe some of the changes that are inevitably coming season lengths and falls season.  He touched upon what I think is the major problem on the 1300 acres available for me to spring hunt on and that is predation.  Nothing has changed on this 1300 acres expect the predators are unchecked.  Noone hunts this property or adjoining properties for coons, oppossum or coyotes which are here in abundance.  This property was a haven for turkeys during the hayday of the fur business when coons, foxes, and oppossums were routinely removed.  Then along come the coyotes that again noone hunts here. Makes sense at least on this ground that it is not about over harvesting since myself and one other person turkey hunt the property.  Just my opinion on my ground. 

[Crghss]

Yep, Raptors and predators are really putting a hurt on turkey.

Was just reading an article stating 80's where height of trapping for fur. Was thinking this is when turkey populations really picked up along with help from various group stocking programs.

[mountainhunter1]

I watch the whole video. Thanks for sharing. If you don't have time to watch it all - the time frame of 17:45-20:45 is worth hearing if you cannot hear it all. That said, and while there are over a half a dozen key factors really affecting turkeys, - Dr. Chamberlain says one thing in almost every video of his sharing about this issue, and he says it again in this one at the 27:46 mark, and that is "that most nests are failing."

He talks about all the issues, but then he always comes back to that one key thought that most nests are failing. And the fact of it is that nests are not failing because of a loss of habitat. They are not failing because of out of state hunters, they are not failing because of a larger bag limit, - those nests are failing because of predators. That much we know.

We MUST address the predator issue or just get ready to say goodbye to turkey hunting as we know it at some point. 

[Paulmyr]

I watch the whole video. Thanks for sharing. If you don't have time to watch it all - the time frame of 17:45-20:45 is worth hearing if you cannot hear it all. That said, and while there are over a half a dozen key factors really affecting turkeys, - Dr. Chamberlain says one thing in almost every video of his sharing about this issue, and he says it again in this one at the 27:46 mark, and that is "that most nests are failing."

He talks about all the issues, but then he always comes back to that one key thought that most nests are failing. And the fact of it is that nests are not failing because of a loss of habitat. They are not failing because of out of state hunters, they are not failing because of a larger bag limit, - those nests are failing because of predators. That much we know.

We MUST address the predator issue or just get ready to say goodbye to turkey hunting as we know it at some point.

I've listened to Chamberlain a number of times and I've heard him say on more than one occasion,
If your nesting and brood rearing habitat is good predators become less of a factor. I've also heard him say during his travels throughout the south more often than not habitat is conducive for predators and not rearing turkeys.

[mountainhunter1]

I watch the whole video. Thanks for sharing. If you don't have time to watch it all - the time frame of 17:45-20:45 is worth hearing if you cannot hear it all. That said, and while there are over a half a dozen key factors really affecting turkeys, - Dr. Chamberlain says one thing in almost every video of his sharing about this issue, and he says it again in this one at the 27:46 mark, and that is "that most nests are failing."

He talks about all the issues, but then he always comes back to that one key thought that most nests are failing. And the fact of it is that nests are not failing because of a loss of habitat. They are not failing because of out of state hunters, they are not failing because of a larger bag limit, - those nests are failing because of predators. That much we know.

We MUST address the predator issue or just get ready to say goodbye to turkey hunting as we know it at some point.

I've listened to Chamberlain a number of times and I've heard him say on more than one occasion,
If your nesting and brood rearing habitat is good predators become less of a factor. I've also heard him say during his travels throughout the south more often than not habitat is conducive for predators and not rearing turkeys.

You said it better than all of us - because if you deal with the predators, then it really does not matter nearly as much where she nests. And being realistic, we are not going to be but so successful at changing all of our habitat (so many places you are just not going to get either burnt or cut), but we could easily get a whole lot more serious about putting the smack down on the predators. For example, in our state, the coon season is closed on public land for half the year, and I cannot help but to ask what is up with that if the state really cares about the turkeys. Coons are literally coming out of the woodwork on those properties. I have for years seen more coon tracks than all other kinds of tracks combined. Why not open it up year round until we see a real dip in the coon pop, and you could always back off and shorten the season back up if need be.

[Paulmyr]

Another thought on habitat issues. This was in one of the podcasts I listened to with Chamberlain. They gps tagged some turkeys a few years back. In the study they  tagged a hen who had a 26 mile home range. The thinking behind why her home range was so big is that's the amount of territory she had to cover throughout the year to find what she needed to survive sometimes traveling multiple miles in a day.

It's my understanding that wild animals only travel as far as they have to in order to find what they need. If the habitat in the area this hen called home forced her to travel that far to find what she needed that's a problem. She's using up energy she normally wouldn't in better habitat. She's not in as good of shape heading into and coming out of winter and it will show in the number and health of eggs she'll attempt to lay. She starts off the breeding season behind the 8 ball. If her clutch happened to be one that survived predation she'll have fewer polts than her counter parts did 20/30/40 years ago when habitat was better.  That's if she was in good enough shape to even attempt to initiate a nest. Now if this study hen is an example of a broader issue effecting most of the hens in her area of the country or even throughout the areas in decline across the country there is a bigger problem than killing predators is going to solve.

Chamberlain didn't get into this example in this podcast but he did put emphasis on the fact that there are most likely multiple reasons for declines in turkey populations. They are not all encompassing and variable to some degree, that is to say what might be causing declines around Mountain Home Ar. might not be the same culprits verbatim in Savanna Ga. Do predators have an impact? Most likely. Will killing a bunch of predators solve the issue? Possibly.

The perception is and some studies indicate that 70 to 80 percent of nest get predated every spring. Is this a new phenomenon or has it been happening for thousands of years. If it's been happening for thousands of years I would assume it to be a zero sum game. Add other variables to the mix like degrading habitat  and hunting pressure and the summation changes. The big question is what can be done if anything to get it back to an equilibrium? Will heavy anti predator measures have an effect. It's my understanding nest raider production meets the carrying capacity of the land. Kill a bunch and they have more offspring to make up the difference. Reduce habitat beneficial to predators and reproduction falls.

When it comes to predation I keep thinking about turkey populations before colonization of the country. Turkey populations were estimated to be around 10 million, almost twice what we see today. There are stories of a continuous gobble during the spring from early settlers. There were so many turkeys in areas you couldn't tell when one gobble ended and another started and this ran fluid across the country side. Am I to believe the Natives had extensive predator control efforts to keep raccoons and other nest raiders in check. I don't think that's hardly the case. So with predator populations running unchecked prior to colonization what allowed Turkey populations to grow to the large numbers seen back then? The only thing I can come up with is habitat and a human population that didn't reek havoc on them during the breeding season.

Now I'm not saying don't trap or shoot predators because it's not worth it. Do what you can on your end even if it's a couple raccoons a year. Every little bit helps. What I am saying is I think it's a little deeper and the battle will have to be fought on a couple fronts if there are to be any long term sustainable results.

Should be an interesting couple years coming up with the revitalization of concern about wild turkey populations and the studies underway and yet to come.

[mountainhunter1]

Another thought on habitat issues. This was in one of the podcasts I listened to with Chamberlain. They gps tagged some turkeys a few years back. In the study they  tagged a hen who had a 26 mile home range. The thinking behind why her home range was so big is that's the amount of territory she had to cover throughout the year to find what she needed to survive sometimes traveling multiple miles in a day.

It's my understanding that wild animals only travel as far as they have to in order to find what they need. If the habitat in the area this hen called home forced her to travel that far to find what she needed that's a problem. She's using up energy she normally wouldn't in better habitat. She's not in as good of shape heading into and coming out of winter and it will show in the number and health of eggs she'll attempt to lay. She starts off the breeding season behind the 8 ball. If her clutch happened to be one that survived predation she'll have fewer polts than her counter parts did 20/30/40 years ago when habitat was better.  That's if she was in good enough shape to even attempt to initiate a nest. Now if this study hen is an example of a broader issue effecting most of the hens in her area of the country or even throughout the areas in decline across the country there is a bigger problem than killing predators is going to solve.

Chamberlain didn't get into this example in this podcast but he did put emphasis on the fact that there are most likely multiple reasons for declines in turkey populations. They are not all encompassing and variable to some degree, that is to say what might be causing declines around Mountain Home Ar. might not be the same culprits verbatim in Savanna Ga. Do predators have an impact? Most likely. Will killing a bunch of predators solve the issue? Possibly.

The perception is and some studies indicate that 70 to 80 percent of nest get predated every spring. Is this a new phenomenon or has it been happening for thousands of years. If it's been happening for thousands of years I would assume it to be a zero sum game. Add other variables to the mix like degrading habitat  and hunting pressure and the summation changes. The big question is what can be done if anything to get it back to an equilibrium? Will heavy anti predator measures have an effect. It's my understanding nest raider production meets the carrying capacity of the land. Kill a bunch and they have more offspring to make up the difference. Reduce habitat beneficial to predators and reproduction falls.

When it comes to predation I keep thinking about turkey populations before colonization of the country. Turkey populations were estimated to be around 10 million, almost twice what we see today. There are stories of a continuous gobble during the spring from early settlers. There were so many turkeys in areas you couldn't tell when one gobble ended and another started and this ran fluid across the country side. Am I to believe the Natives had extensive predator control efforts to keep raccoons and other nest raiders in check. I don't think that's hardly the case. So with predator populations running unchecked prior to colonization what allowed Turkey populations to grow to the large numbers seen back then? The only thing I can come up with is habitat and a human population that didn't reek havoc on them during the breeding season.

Now I'm not saying don't trap or shoot predators because it's not worth it. Do what you can on your end even if it's a couple raccoons a year. Every little bit helps. What I am saying is I think it's a little deeper and the battle will have to be fought on a couple fronts if there are to be any long term sustainable results.

Should be an interesting couple years coming up with the revitalization of concern about wild turkey populations and the studies underway and yet to come.

I recall them talking about that hen that was traveling so far. I don't disagree with anything that you said, and I have also wondered if the same stuff was going on with nests way before guys like Chamberlain were able to better track nesting success. That was why in my above post referred folks to the 17-20 minute mark where he referred to multiple issues as to why the turkeys are in trouble. But my question is to either him, you or whoever can answer it, and while I agree that habitat is a key issue -  he says that most nests are failing and I cannot help but wonder how much habitat improvement is going to really transform that?

Where I live, and while this is definitely not true for many areas - but in my area, the habitat is slightly better today that it was twenty years ago as there is finally clear cutting going on again after a tree hugger run caused our legislators to shut it down for a long time. And there is much more burning on public land today than it was 20 years ago. So at least in this one area, the habitat is at the very least much improved. Yet, the turkey population is plummeting. One other key factor, during that same span, coon hunting has literally died in this area as most of those same folks have begun to squirrel hunt. 

Another great example that makes me really wonder - I live within an hour of a large city where habitat suitable for predators has been destroyed for the most part in much of that city for the coon and the coyote and yet they are still there in record numbers. Folks literally cannot have a house cat that goes outside in much of this area for the large numbers of coyotes. And yet with all that said, I still think the habitat and the effect of man has a big impact on any wildlife, so I am not arguing your point - I am really just asking an honest question. If the one non varying factor he says is nest failure, I am just curious how much improved habitat is going to change that big problem if the predators are still there even if the ideal habitat for the predators is no longer there as we are seeing in the larger cities.

These are just some really good questions yet to be fully answered. One thing that I do think is for certain and you make a great point about it; and that is that we will get some answers (hopefully) to those type questions in the next few years now that we have more people really researching and putting time into trying to find those answers. 

[rifleman]

     I posted a message to this effect earlier.   I first must say that there may be issues that I am unaware of on the land I hunt.  This 1300 acres is primarily hardwoods within typical WV terrain that has remained, habitat wise, unchanged since I first began hunting the property in 1975.  The only outstanding change has been the influx of coyote and bears and the overpopulation of coons and oppossums.  As I also said before coons and oppossums had become very scarce on the property and the three coon hunters we had hunted elsewhere.  Back in the "big money for hides days" those guys killed all they could in a night.  Now I know of only one of those guys that goes on the property for coons but with advancing age he tends to hunt farmland in VA and local farms farms near here.  That is my firsthand experience.
     I might add that deer were also abundant and have slowly disappeared over the same time period.  Those deer that are taken appear to be healthy and are fat.

[hawk1958]

When it comes to predation I keep thinking about turkey populations before colonization of the country. Turkey populations were estimated to be around 10 million, almost twice what we see today. There are stories of a continuous gobble during the spring from early settlers. There were so many turkeys in areas you couldn't tell when one gobble ended and another started and this ran fluid across the country side. Am I to believe the Natives had extensive predator control efforts to keep raccoons and other nest raiders in check. I don't think that's hardly the case.

I have thought of this also. Back then there were larger predators such as panthers and wolves to help control nest raiders. Here in Iowa there are very few predators of racoons left.

hawk1958

[shatcher]

Need a bounty on raptors.

[Paulmyr]

When it comes to predation I keep thinking about turkey populations before colonization of the country. Turkey populations were estimated to be around 10 million, almost twice what we see today. There are stories of a continuous gobble during the spring from early settlers. There were so many turkeys in areas you couldn't tell when one gobble ended and another started and this ran fluid across the country side. Am I to believe the Natives had extensive predator control efforts to keep raccoons and other nest raiders in check. I don't think that's hardly the case.

I have thought of this also. Back then there were larger predators such as panthers and wolves to help control nest raiders. Here in Iowa there are very few predators of racoons left.

hawk1958

I just checked out a list of racoons predators from a couple online articles and yes wolves and  panthers  were on it as well as coyotes, foxes, hawks, eagles, owls, bobcats, and bears. One list went as far as to say raccoons were one of the most preyed on animals in the world.

I'm sure there aren't many bears if any in Iowa but there are plenty of the other predators I'm sure as well as in the areas the are seeing the greatest declines in turkeys. Most of the smaller predators are thought to prey on juveniles.

A single adult coyote seems to be able to handle an adult racoons rather easily from what I've read. A pack has no problem at all. Coyotes have excellent eyesight and can see in the dark. I would think  a great horned owl wouldn't have much of a problem taking down an adult raccoon with it's silent attack from the air surprising them at night when raccoons are most active. As with most predators I would think eating raccoons is a matter of opportunity and how hungry they are.The one that kind of surprised me was foxes until you think about them attacking juveniles. It's also thought they go after adult raccoons in the winter when food is scarce.

All this brings me back to my statement  predators are present in the amount of the carrying capacity of the the land. It's no different today than it was 200 years ago. Nature will balance itself out without interference from man.

[Paulmyr]

When it comes to predation I keep thinking about turkey populations before colonization of the country. Turkey populations were estimated to be around 10 million, almost twice what we see today. There are stories of a continuous gobble during the spring from early settlers. There were so many turkeys in areas you couldn't tell when one gobble ended and another started and this ran fluid across the country side. Am I to believe the Natives had extensive predator control efforts to keep raccoons and other nest raiders in check. I don't think that's hardly the case.

I have thought of this also. Back then there were larger predators such as panthers and wolves to help control nest raiders. Here in Iowa there are very few predators of racoons left.

hawk1958

I just checked out a list of racoons predators from a couple online articles and yes wolves and  panthers  were on it as well as coyotes, foxes, hawks, eagles, owls, bobcats, and bears. One list went as far as to say raccoons were one of the most preyed on animals in the world.

I'm sure there aren't many bears if any in Iowa but there are plenty of the other predators I'm sure as well as in the areas the are seeing the greatest declines in turkeys. Most of the smaller predators are thought to prey on juveniles.

A single adult coyote seems to be able to handle an adult racoons rather easily from what I've read. A pack has no problem at all. Coyotes have excellent eyesight and can see in the dark. I would think  a great horned owl wouldn't have much of a problem taking down an adult raccoon with it's silent attack from the air surprising them at night when raccoons are most active. As with most predators I would think eating raccoons is a matter of opportunity and how hungry they are.The one that kind of surprised me was foxes until you think about them attacking juveniles. It's also thought they go after adult raccoons in the winter when food is scarce.

All this brings me back to my statement  predators are present in the amount of the carrying capacity of the the land. It's no different today than it was 200 years ago. Nature will balance itself out without interference from man.

I'd like to add to that.

All Predators usually clean the sick, weak, and the ones with traits less suitable for survival from animal populations except one. Man, he usually takes the strongest, hardiest of the animal populations he chooses to engage.

[Crghss]

When it comes to predation I keep thinking about turkey populations before colonization of the country. Turkey populations were estimated to be around 10 million, almost twice what we see today.

I believe the terrain was vastly different also. More swamps and wetlands. Think of all the open fields today that would be forests back then. Landscape is totally different.

Wonder what a forest that hasn't ever been logged out or clear cut looks like?