Ohio joins in, proposed bag limit reduction. NR hunters on rise pre-COVID.

[GobbleNut]

Public land hunters likely won't be saying it or encouraging it, but different bag limits for public and private lands is already happening. And at the current rate, I expect to see more of it implemented in the future.

Again, back to my "sticky wicket" point:  The real legal question that will ultimately arise in those states that allow larger bag limits on private property is whether states can take a publicly-owned resource and give preferential treatment to private entities in regard to utilizing that resource?  I am of the opinion that, at some point, there is going to be one or more lawsuits in this country where that question will have to be resolved.  ...We'll see how long it takes...

Wow, Missouri has been doing it for a long time. Not with turkeys yet? But for the Deer there are antler point restrictions and restrictions on antlerless harvest. Many conservation areas have had these in place.
Some you cant even shoot a antlerless deer with a bow. Other allow antlerless harvest but you have to use your any deer buck tag. With a bow on private land you have pretty much an unlimited number of antlerless permits.

Good point made, owlhoot.  I am certain Missouri's situation is not all that uncommon.  There are probably a number of states that have discriminatory regulations in their hunting rules.  New Mexico is probably the "poster boy" of discriminatory practices in our hunting laws.  Simply stated, states get away with these kinds of laws because nobody has challenged it in court.  In addition, if these regulations were to be challenged (an expensive proposition), there is the chance the laws would not be overturned anyway (as in all matters, politics can raise its ugly head in the process). 

However, the basic tenant in wildlife management in the U.S. is that (non-migratory) wildlife within the borders of each state is "held in trust" for the citizens of that state,....and it applies whether that wildlife is on public or private land.  Suffice it to say, the application of that tenant is questionable in a number of states. 

Having said that, it should also be pointed out that there are "loopholes" in that tenant,...some legitimate, some not-so-much,...that a lot of states tend to exploit.  Too often, those loopholes are exploited based on money and politics rather than fairness to our citizenry. 

[arkrem870]

Do we have the 2021 nonresident numbers?

[deerhunt1988]

Do we have the 2021 nonresident numbers?

Not yet, but we all know what they will look like!

[arkrem870]

That will be the data that is likely pushing this decision.....because nothing I've seen in the information  provided would lead me to believe these regulation changes  are justified at this time.

[GobbleNut]

Just one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.

Here are the numbers per ODW. I really don't see this big slump, I see some fluctuation, but a pretty steady linear mean. Especially when you take out the cicada years of 1999 and 2016.

That brood data tells me that next year's harvest will be better than 2021's strictly due to more gobblers on the landscape thanks to the 2020 hatch. 2020 had the best reproduction in the previous 4-year period. Any decent biologist could have told you harvest numbers would likely be decreasing for 2021 due to three years of below average production. Crazy to me how they act like the low harvest was a surprise. If they wanted to reduce the bag limit, it would have made more sense to do it in 2020 or 2021. But I guess enough of the public wasn't complaining then.

If 2021 has a hatch on par with 2020s, you will see the harvest start the climb up again. But unfortunately turkey hunters in Ohio may never be able to kill a 2nd bird again if this proposal passes. But that's OK, everyone deserves a participation turkey!

These comments bring up a couple of (unrelated) points.
The first is the tendency of states to set regulations well in advance of the hunting season to which they apply,...as well as trying to make those regulations as consistent as possible. Doing so makes it difficult, if not impossible, to assess the impacts of reproductive success or failure on harvest goals.  Because of this, hindsight is always going to be 20/20.  Truth be told, hunting seasons/bag limits should be established through a thorough census of the individual populations as close to the proposed hunt as possible. 

Now, admittedly, with turkeys and as it applies to spring gobbler hunting, we are (or should be) looking at both long-term population trends as well as short-term reproductive success.  Regardless, turkey hunters (and wildlife managers) get a bit antsy when we start manipulating harvest structures up or down on a yearly basis. 

The second point applies to the "participation turkey" comment.  As a "serious" turkey hunter that wants to have as much opportunity as I can, I tend to agree with that attitude of not setting regulations and bag limits based on the "casual" hunter (i.e...the "participation turkey" guy).  However, I don't think most wildlife managers see it that way.  They most likely are (and probably should, as much as we don't like it) going to cater to the majority,...which is most likely those that are casual turkey hunters,...and just want a "participation turkey". 

Unfortunately, those are also the guys that fill out those surveys and tell wildlife managers that one turkey is enough,...even when there might be no biological justification for that position. 

[eggshell]

Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less

[the Ward]

Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less

Is there a breakdown on the resident vs nonresident licenses? I wonder if the 7000 less in 21 was due to all the people off  work in spring of 20 going hunting.

[eggshell]

Ward, I saw those numbers somewhere but I can't seem to find them now. I know in 2020 nonresidents weren't allowed to buy permits in Ohio unless they already had them and those accounted for about 4500 less nonresident permits in 2020, but there was a big jump in resident tags with people being on covid furlough. I'll do some checking and see if I can find that.

[the Ward]

Ward, I saw those numbers somewhere but I can't seem to find them now. I know in 2020 nonresidents weren't allowed to buy permits in Ohio unless they already had them and those accounted for about 4500 less nonresident permits in 2020, but there was a big jump in resident tags with people being on covid furlough. I'll do some checking and see if I can find that.

Thanks Eggshell, I wondered what the breakdown would be. I would guess non resident deer hunters account for a much higher percentage of license sales vs turkey hunters, but i could be wrong. I forgot about them stopping license sales to nonresidents, I think some other states did the same thing. Numbers and stats are probably going to be a little wonky for 20-21, due to the effect corona had on everything.

[Paulmyr]

Ha, sounds like the title to a sci-fi thriller...."The Covid Effect!"

[deerhunt1988]

Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less

Is there a breakdown on the resident vs nonresident licenses? I wonder if the 7000 less in 21 was due to all the people off  work in spring of 20 going hunting.

I requested the info and just received it.

2021:
56,394 resident turkey permits
4,869 non-resident turkey permits


Just as I suspected, non-resident numbers continued to increase.
Resident turkey permits dropped from 2020 but are still slightly higher than 2019.

[the Ward]

Ha, sounds like the title to a sci-fi thriller...."The Covid Effect!"

[the Ward]

Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less

Is there a breakdown on the resident vs nonresident licenses? I wonder if the 7000 less in 21 was due to all the people off  work in spring of 20 going hunting.

I requested the info and just received it.

2021:
56,394 resident turkey permits
4,869 non-resident turkey permits


Just as I suspected, non-resident numbers continued to increase.

Thanks for the info. Where can you request this info at if you don't mind? Roughly 60,000 turkey hunters in 21 then.

[deerhunt1988]

Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less

Is there a breakdown on the resident vs nonresident licenses? I wonder if the 7000 less in 21 was due to all the people off  work in spring of 20 going hunting.

I requested the info and just received it.

2021:
56,394 resident turkey permits
4,869 non-resident turkey permits


Just as I suspected, non-resident numbers continued to increase.

Thanks for the info. Where can you request this info at if you don't mind? Roughly 60,000 turkey hunters in 21 then.

Just sent a public records request to the email at the following link:
https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/discover-and-learn/safety-conservation/about-ODNR/policies/public-records

[the Ward]

Thank you Deerhunt, much appreciated.