Ohio joins in, proposed bag limit reduction. NR hunters on rise pre-COVID.

[GobbleNut]

Public land hunters likely won't be saying it or encouraging it, but different bag limits for public and private lands is already happening. And at the current rate, I expect to see more of it implemented in the future.

Again, back to my "sticky wicket" point:  The real legal question that will ultimately arise in those states that allow larger bag limits on private property is whether states can take a publicly-owned resource and give preferential treatment to private entities in regard to utilizing that resource?  I am of the opinion that, at some point, there is going to be one or more lawsuits in this country where that question will have to be resolved.  ...We'll see how long it takes...

[FLGobstopper]

Do these states not realize about 40% of adult gobblers die every year of natural causes?

Just out of curiosity where did you get this information? What exactly are considered natural causes?

[the Ward]

Private land owners own the land, not the game on it.I hunt turkey pretty much exclusively on private land in Ohio, and i'm ok with a temporary bag limit restrictions. But it has to work in concert with predator managment and habitat improvement. I don't need to kill a bunch of gobblers in one season to have a great hunting experience.Reduced bag limits worked for waterfowl. It also worked for deer in Ohio, we can only shoot one antlered buck, and i don't hear a great hue and cry to make it legal to shoot 2 more per season.I remember when seeing a deer was exciting, because there wasn't that many around. Now they are everywhere, due to restrictive limits that helped the herd grow and that allowed much more liberal bag limits. The idea that a property owner should be able to have a higher bag limit than on public land is nonsense, and is a really bad slippery slope when it comes to the long term future of hunting.Bag limits and seasons set by scientific studies and by different zones i will agree with.

[eggshell]

Just to make this clear:

1.) I in no way what-so-ever endorse a different bag limit for private land than public. The same limit for all is right. When they started this public vs private limit thing I did not like it.

2.) I realize the wildlife belongs to the state, hell I manged for 31 years in this field. I understood every single day we worked for all the citizens of Ohio and were stewards of "Their Resource. I realized the outdoors people paid my salary and bills. In return I done my very best to prosper, protect and provide that resource for the future.

3.) This debate should always be about the resource and it's well being,first. The utilization of a excess of harvestable and renewable resources, made available to all,  is wise management.

4.) I believe regulations implemented by the emotional pleas of the public and not based on proven results and preponderance of hard facts and principle is in error and not conducive to fixing problems.

5.) I agree, I don't need to kill a bunch of birds either, but I do like hunting them. If I truly believed reducing the limit to one would recover our flock I would be all in, I'd even say close it completely. If our flock is truly in trouble, just stop all harvest. I could live with that if there was tested evidence that the closing would fix it, but no one has shown that to be true.

[dirtnap]

Sadly as the previous commenter mentioned states definitely are taking the easy way out. I'm sure if this reduction in bag limits passes the DNR in Ohio will pat themselves on the back in a few seasons and chalk this restriction up as a win for themselves. Although there is nothing warranting this brash change in regulation as Deerhunt1988's data points out. I chalk this up to the fear mongering chamberlain effect, I'm sure this proposal was stirred up due to public outcry of hunters who've not yet seen the highs and lows of population swings every few years.. and just freaked out due to numbers being down compared to their rookie season in 2018. As Cwedding pointed out, I'm sure the elimination of killing hens and Jakes in Ohio would compensate and contribute more to the Ohio turkey population rather than restricting residents and non residents alike from taking a 2nd Buckeye state spring gobbler.

This sums it up pretty good.  I've hunted Ohio quite a bit since 2002 as a nonresident.

[owlhoot]

Public land hunters likely won't be saying it or encouraging it, but different bag limits for public and private lands is already happening. And at the current rate, I expect to see more of it implemented in the future.

Again, back to my "sticky wicket" point:  The real legal question that will ultimately arise in those states that allow larger bag limits on private property is whether states can take a publicly-owned resource and give preferential treatment to private entities in regard to utilizing that resource?  I am of the opinion that, at some point, there is going to be one or more lawsuits in this country where that question will have to be resolved.  ...We'll see how long it takes...

Wow, Missouri has been doing it for a long time. Not with turkeys yet? But for the Deer there are antler point restrictions and restrictions on antlerless harvest. Many conservation areas have had these in place.
Some you cant even shoot a antlerless deer with a bow. Other allow antlerless harvest but you have to use your any deer buck tag. With a bow on private land you have pretty much an unlimited number of antlerless permits.

[eggshell]

some more food for thought:

Ohio"s estimated deer population is 680,000 and the 2020/21 harvest was 197,735 or approx. 29% + of the population. I don't see many crying for reduced deer harvest.

https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/discover-and-learn/animals/mammals/white-tailed-deer

Ohio's turkey flock is estimated at 190,00 and the average spring harvest over the last decade approx. 18,000 or 9+% of the population. Add in the 1063 fall 2020 kill and it's 10%....come on look at the real data

How is it we're so worried about a 10% harvest and not a roughly 30% harvest? Can anyone say politics?

More turkeys die of old age. Why are they reducing bag limits if it's not just pandering to public pressure from surveys. I say it again, the falling numbers are not from spring gobbler harvest, but something is happening to the nest and poults. Plus I did notice there were actually less permits sold last year and I wouldn't be surprised if the total hours per hunter was down. The nonresident sales were way off because of restrictions from covid and that also reduced harvest some.

[owlhoot]

some more food for thought:

Ohio"s estimated deer population is 680,000 and the 2020/21 harvest was 197,735 or approx. 29% + of the population. I don't see many crying for reduced deer harvest.

https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/discover-and-learn/animals/mammals/white-tailed-deer

Ohio's turkey flock is estimated at 190,00 and the average spring harvest over the last decade approx. 18,000 or 9+% of the population. Add in the 1063 fall 2020 kill and it's 10%....come on look at the real data

How is it we're so worried about a 10% harvest and not a roughly 30% harvest? Can anyone say politics?

POLITICS me off.

It stinks.
Just one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.

[the Ward]

Eggshell, my post wasn't meant toward you personally, just commenting my thoughts on different bag limits and my thoughts on what is going on. If i offended you, i apologize, as i did not intend to.

[eggshell]

Just one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.

Here are the numbers per ODW. I really don't see this big slump, I see some fluctuation, but a pretty steady linear mean. Especially when you take out the cicada years of 1999 and 2016. 

[eggshell]

Eggshell, my post wasn't meant toward you personally, just commenting my thoughts on different bag limits and my thoughts on what is going on. If i offended you, i apologize, as i did not intend to.

We're cool, appreciate the thoughts

[owlhoot]

Just one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.

Here are the numbers per ODW. I really don't see this big slump, I see some fluctuation, but a pretty steady linear mean.

Oh ok, Ohio broods don't look too bad. Wonder what the study guide lines were for those calculations?

And agree with you on gobbler harvest.

Example is that if 1000 hens were observed and 35% or 350 had poults average 2.5 per hen. Is that the calculation? Or another way? 
That seems to be the problem. At least in Missouri past reports show only 35% of hens reported had broods at all. And about 3.5 poults per hen, with about 80K hens reported. And the other 65% had NO poults, which mainly should be nest failure or destruction from nest raiders.

[El Pavo Grande]

What you guys that don't live and hunt in Ohio don't realize is the state has been sending out surveys for the last several years and this is obviously what the majority of the hunters wanted. In my opinion this will help but there also needs to be a focus on predator control and habitat improvement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't understand that. Ohioans must want to submit to a 1 bird 2 week season like their brethren to the west in Indiana. Not sure why folks advocate for their hunting opportunity to be further restricted. If someone's property has a low population of birds why not set a personal limit of one gobbler, then travel to say either a buddys property, wma, etc to try and fill your second tag. It's very irresponsible for folks to jump on this bandwagon of wanting their seasons restricted statewide based on their observations on their 200 acre family farm or local wma that has been pounded by non residents the past couple years. As it has already been pointed out the elimination of jakes and hens in spring would save 15-25% of birds in the state without taking away one off the bag limit. The mass hysteria on the Internet forums and Facebook groups these last few years and led by some "doom and gloom" biologists is to blame for this, this proposal isn't backed by science. If only we had a biologist out there who would stand up and voice his studies in opposition to all this season cutting and bag limit reductions.... I mean hell look at Arkansas they have tried this shorter season and reduced bag limit for what? 10 years. Doesn't seem as if they've improved the slightest.

What you guys that don't live and hunt in Ohio don't realize is the state has been sending out surveys for the last several years and this is obviously what the majority of the hunters wanted. In my opinion this will help but there also needs to be a focus on predator control and habitat improvement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't understand that. Ohioans must want to submit to a 1 bird 2 week season like their brethren to the west in Indiana. Not sure why folks advocate for their hunting opportunity to be further restricted. If someone's property has a low population of birds why not set a personal limit of one gobbler, then travel to say either a buddys property, wma, etc to try and fill your second tag. It's very irresponsible for folks to jump on this bandwagon of wanting their seasons restricted statewide based on their observations on their 200 acre family farm or local wma that has been pounded by non residents the past couple years. As it has already been pointed out the elimination of jakes and hens in spring would save 15-25% of birds in the state without taking away one off the bag limit. The mass hysteria on the Internet forums and Facebook groups these last few years and led by some "doom and gloom" biologists is to blame for this, this proposal isn't backed by science. If only we had a biologist out there who would stand up and voice his studies in opposition to all this season cutting and bag limit reductions.... I mean hell look at Arkansas they have tried this shorter season and reduced bag limit for what? 10 years. Doesn't seem as if they've improved the slightest.

I can vouch first hand for Arkansas that hunting regulations alone have done very little, while other issues remain, such as weather, predation, and habitat.  16 day seasons (plus 2 day youth) for nine straight years, with 18 day seasons the two years prior.  Jake harvest was 39% of total harvest from 1982-1999.  In 2000, a jake limit of 1 was implemented resulting in an average jake harvest of 22% of total harvest from 2000-2010.  In 2011, jakes were limited to 1 per youth only, resulting in an average jake harvest of 4% of total harvest from 2011-2020.   The fall season was canceled in 2009.   Despite these efforts, the population in many areas continued to decline.  I'm thankful for the AGFC deciding to be conservative, but otherwise it has not been the answer alone.  During the decline, predator #s have grown, baiting with corn has increased, hogs have been introduced in a lot of areas they didn't previously exist, and wet weather has been the norm in April, May, and June.  I'd say many areas have seen habitat relatively unchanged or improved, but with far less turkeys.  Other areas have simply lost habitat.  Poult Per Hen counts were dismal in 2017 (.86) and 2018 (.95).   With all that said, don't get your hopes up if your in a state that has made these changes, if nothing else is addressed. 

[eggshell]

Owlhoot, As far as I know it's total number of poults observed divided by total hens observed. Mail carries do a survey, as well as public reports and wildlife employees. I have filled out a few of those forms and they ask for all turkeys observed and ask how many adults and young. So if you see 5 hens with zero poults it still goes into the equation.

[deerhunt1988]

Just one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.

Here are the numbers per ODW. I really don't see this big slump, I see some fluctuation, but a pretty steady linear mean. Especially when you take out the cicada years of 1999 and 2016.

That brood data tells me that next year's harvest will be better than 2021's strictly due to more gobblers on the landscape thanks to the 2020 hatch. 2020 had the best reproduction in the previous 4-year period. Any decent biologist could have told you harvest numbers would likely be decreasing for 2021 due to three years of below average production. Crazy to me how they act like the low harvest was a surprise. If they wanted to reduce the bag limit, it would have made more sense to do it in 2020 or 2021. But I guess enough of the public wasn't complaining then.

If 2021 has a hatch on par with 2020s, you will see the harvest start the climb up again. But unfortunately turkey hunters in Ohio may never be able to kill a 2nd bird again if this proposal passes. But that's OK, everyone deserves a participation turkey!