Turkey Population Decline?

[eggshell]

I'm wondering if this article sheds a lot of light on what is happening?

https://www.poconorecord.com/news/20180429/west-nile-virus-is-lead-suspect-in-ruffed-grouse-decline#:~:text=West%20Nile%20virus%20is%20a%20lead%20suspect%20in,percent%20mortality%20rate%20in%20a%20controlled%20lab%20setting.

[Turkeytider]

Predators, weather, disease,

Correct on all counts, it`s a multiplicity of factors. Mike Chamberlain calls it " Death by a thousand cuts. " Any one thing or attempted remedy will have a positive impact, but there`s probably no single magic bullet. Discussing(arguing? ) tactics is fine. It`s the people who simply will not entertain the notion that populations in certain areas are in decline are the ones that drive me nuts. The population science, for them, reveals " inconvenient truths " that do not match the reality that they wish to see. Here in Georgia, there are areas that have good populations and too many hunters, IMO, extrapolate what they see in those pockets to the state as a whole. Some folks go so far as to say that they don`t care what the wildlife biologists like Dr. Chamberlain have to say. That`s a dangerous attitude IMHO.

[TauntoHawk]

I know some of it is habitat too, I can remember period of way more birds where I have family land in NE Pa. While there are more coyotes and fishers now i also see less foxes and racoons and such. But what I have witnessed is the old farm habitat is 20yrs older. Timber is open and over mature, apple tree have been choked out or diseased, oaks have been cut and replaced by maple and beech. Pasture field have turned over to woods and dense saplings. There's a lack of food and mast as well as proper nesting habitat.

We do habitat improvements on our 60 some acres and hold birds better than the neighboring properties but it doesn't impact population on such a small size.

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[GobbleNut]

I'm wondering if this article sheds a lot of light on what is happening?

https://www.poconorecord.com/news/20180429/west-nile-virus-is-lead-suspect-in-ruffed-grouse-decline#:~:text=West%20Nile%20virus%20is%20a%20lead%20suspect%20in,percent%20mortality%20rate%20in%20a%20controlled%20lab%20setting.

According to research done on west nile and its impact on wild turkey populations, they can contract it but it is not generally fatal.  I believe the study inferred that, even if turkeys contract west nile, they are likely to recover from it.

I think the question about whether poultry diseases, in general, have a significant impact on turkey populations is a valid one.  Not sure if that has been adequately researched to assess the cumulative impacts of disease on wild turkeys. 

[eggshell]

Those are good points Gobblenut and the current studies do suggest that west nile isn't a significant cause of Wild Turkey mortality, but they also said that it didn't kill dogs....I had a setter that didn't know that and died from it. Do you know of any recent studies that looked at poult mortality from avian diseases, including West Nile. Back when I was rearing fish there were a lot of diseases we watched out for, but some that normally weren't lethal would knock the living crap out of your stock if it got into them at certain early life stages. Just throwing another ingredient in the soup.

[deerhunt1988]

Some folks go so far as to say that they don`t care what the wildlife biologists like Dr. Chamberlain have to say. That`s a dangerous attitude IMHO.

Most of the serious turkey folk (and even wildlife professionals) who have an issue with Dr. Chamberlain is because some of what he says is theory and not yet based on scientific evidence. The theory is almost being preached as gospel and folks are taking to it. Making decisions based on theory, that is also a dangerous attitude. The fear is that once states start taking away hunting opportunity (reduced season lengths and bird limits), that we very well may never get that opportunity back. And it is very possible that these reductions could not help the turkey situation at all. Just look at Arkansas.

Hopefully some the great turkey research on the horizon will clear the air on some things. I sure hope, for the sake of the turkey.

[Happy]

Well until theory becomes gospel we could do away with tss shells, blinds, decoys and fans. I bet the gobbler population would increase dramatically and the whining about a lack of turkeys would decrease as well.

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[snoodcrusher]

Well until theory becomes gospel we could do away with tss shells, blinds, decoys and fans. I bet the gobbler population would increase dramatically and the whining about a lack of turkeys would decrease as well.

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Add corn piles and chufa fields to the list as well.  Blinds, decoys, and fans are things that really swing the advantage to the shooter though.   I think pop up blinds may contribute to the death of gobblers more than anything else mentioned above.  And I guarantee you, blinds are almost always used in combination with bait and decoys.  Take away blinds and most guys couldn't sit motionless and comfortably long enough to kill a turkey.  But newer blinds can almost conceal a recliner and movement is never an issue.  It's a huge advantage


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[Turkeytider]

Well until theory becomes gospel we could do away with tss shells, blinds, decoys and fans. I bet the gobbler population would increase dramatically and the whining about a lack of turkeys would decrease as well.

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Add corn piles and chufa fields to the list as well.  Blinds, decoys, and fans are things that really swing the advantage to the shooter though.   I think pop up blinds may contribute to the death of gobblers more than anything else mentioned above.  And I guarantee you, blinds are almost always used in combination with bait and decoys.  Take away blinds and most guys couldn't sit motionless and comfortably long enough to kill a turkey.  But newer blinds can almost conceal a recliner and movement is never an issue.  It's a huge advantage


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Personally don`t use an artificial blind of any kind. I love being in the woods enough to sit still for a long time and just watch what`s going on around me. The primary goal is to harvest a turkey but it`s not the only goal . It`s enough of the goal to where I do use a decoy in open areas, however.

[CAPTJJ]

Archery gear only would really help increase the number of toms.

[HunterS5]

Well until theory becomes gospel we could do away with tss shells, blinds, decoys and fans. I bet the gobbler population would increase dramatically and the whining about a lack of turkeys would decrease as well.

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Add corn piles and chufa fields to the list as well.  Blinds, decoys, and fans are things that really swing the advantage to the shooter though.   I think pop up blinds may contribute to the death of gobblers more than anything else mentioned above.  And I guarantee you, blinds are almost always used in combination with bait and decoys.  Take away blinds and most guys couldn't sit motionless and comfortably long enough to kill a turkey.  But newer blinds can almost conceal a recliner and movement is never an issue.  It's a huge advantage


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If this is true, then hunting harvest is too high. One way to reduce harvest is to reduce success rates via the methods you suggest. But another way would be to reduce bag limits.

[owlhoot]

Well until theory becomes gospel we could do away with tss shells, blinds, decoys and fans. I bet the gobbler population would increase dramatically and the whining about a lack of turkeys would decrease as well.

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Add corn piles and chufa fields to the list as well.  Blinds, decoys, and fans are things that really swing the advantage to the shooter though.   I think pop up blinds may contribute to the death of gobblers more than anything else mentioned above.  And I guarantee you, blinds are almost always used in combination with bait and decoys.  Take away blinds and most guys couldn't sit motionless and comfortably long enough to kill a turkey.  But newer blinds can almost conceal a recliner and movement is never an issue.  It's a huge advantage


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If this is true, then hunting harvest is too high. One way to reduce harvest is to reduce success rates via the methods you suggest. But another way would be to reduce bag limits.

So limiting the harvest of gobblers by any of these means will bring back the wild turkey to numbers previously obtained . Dang hens lay the eggs last we checked in the real wild anyway. Shooting the crap out of them in your area are they?
So stop the mushroom hunters from finding and using the turkey eggs to roll the mushrooms in before frying them. That will fix it.

[SD_smith]

I know it's been said but listen to Dr. Michael Chamberlain, he references research conducted by Billy Healey in the 70's-80's.  Dr. Healey was advising later season start dates decades ago, fortunately northeastern states heeded his advice and aren't seeing the declines the southeastern part of the US is seeing.  Kinda eye opening when he talks about how long it takes for pecking order to be reestablished once the dominant gobbler is removed.  The wild turkey is the only game bird outside of the sooty grouse that's hunted during it's breeding season, as far as I know.  We may have to come to terms with season structure changes, starting later in April or beginning of May.  I know this will be a difficult pill to swallow for some but if it benefits turkey populations as a whole then I'm all for it.  Also we as turkey hunters can spend about $15-$20 bucks on dog proof foot traps and help reduce nest predators where we hunt.  I for one get regular pics of racoons in my area and plan to set out a few, trapping is a dying art and we need to do all we can to keep coons, possums, skunks, etc in check.

Curious as to how long it took to sort out the pecking order in their study? Do you remember?

My father guided in SW Florida for 15 years and we routinely could kill a gobbler out of a flock on one day and within 1-2 days he was replaced. I've always thought that the subordinate gobblers are always within ear shot of the dominant bird and are almost constantly trying to find ways to single out a hen or takeover. This happens the entire time they're on the ground I'd bet. Fairly quickly they notice he isn't there and will scoot right in.


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[silvestris]

The elimination of all true crutches would be beneficial to the turkeys and more beneficial to the turkey hunters remaining as well.

[Turkeytider]

I know it's been said but listen to Dr. Michael Chamberlain, he references research conducted by Billy Healey in the 70's-80's.  Dr. Healey was advising later season start dates decades ago, fortunately northeastern states heeded his advice and aren't seeing the declines the southeastern part of the US is seeing.  Kinda eye opening when he talks about how long it takes for pecking order to be reestablished once the dominant gobbler is removed.  The wild turkey is the only game bird outside of the sooty grouse that's hunted during it's breeding season, as far as I know.  We may have to come to terms with season structure changes, starting later in April or beginning of May.  I know this will be a difficult pill to swallow for some but if it benefits turkey populations as a whole then I'm all for it.  Also we as turkey hunters can spend about $15-$20 bucks on dog proof foot traps and help reduce nest predators where we hunt.  I for one get regular pics of racoons in my area and plan to set out a few, trapping is a dying art and we need to do all we can to keep coons, possums, skunks, etc in check.

Curious as to how long it took to sort out the pecking order in their study? Do you remember?

My father guided in SW Florida for 15 years and we routinely could kill a gobbler out of a flock on one day and within 1-2 days he was replaced. I've always thought that the subordinate gobblers are always within ear shot of the dominant bird and are almost constantly trying to find ways to single out a hen or takeover. This happens the entire time they're on the ground I'd bet. Fairly quickly they notice he isn't there and will scoot right in.


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It's not just the pecking order with the toms. The hen makes the selection and goes through a process to do so. How long it takes her to do so, I'm not sure, but I believe Mike Chamberlain addresses that in some of his pod casts.