Ok guys I've slinging lead at turkeys for over 40 years now and I doubt that I will change but if I did decide to try some tungsten out at around ten bucks a round which of these two would be the best punch for the bucks federal or apex I'm sure this has been dicussd on here before but I was just curious...thanks
IMO stick with lead if your shooting a 12 in 3 or 3 1/2. TSS is the equalizer in 20 and 410. Out to 40 yards and a little more we REALLY don't need anything else. Federal and Apex are both good OTC TSS loads. Handloading would allow you to fine tune if you desire. :z-twocents:
I use Federal in my .410. Lead in my 12
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If you're shooting them inside 40 with a 12 gauge, there is no reason to switch. If you want a smaller gun to do what the 12 has done, then TSS is worth the bucks.
Browning seems like the one to try.
Or....if you'd like to continue shooting a 12 but use ammo that doesn't stomp your guts out like a 3" or 3 1/2" lead turkey load but will still stomp a turkey at 40......put together 1 5/8 oz of TSS in a 2 3/4" shell.
I don't know about anyone else but tss has saved my shoulder, neck and nose from being beat up. You can shoot a lighter load and kill them just as dead as you can with lead.
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I've not tried it in the 12 gauge .. just 410 and 20 gauge ... but I've seen some good patterns with both federal and apex .... i guess i would get a box of each federal ? apex and try couple ... that's what i did with the 20 gauge .. but i'm still have several Federal HW 7 before i made the told switch to the new federal Tss or Apex...for the 20 gauge .... now with the 410 i liked the Apex little better ...
Quote from: Hobbes on May 24, 2019, 05:24:59 PM
Or....if you'd like to continue shooting a 12 but use ammo that doesn't stomp your guts out like a 3" or 3 1/2" lead turkey load but will still stomp a turkey at 40......put together 1 5/8 oz of TSS in a 2 3/4" shell.
X2
Quote from: Hobbes on May 24, 2019, 05:24:59 PM
Or....if you'd like to continue shooting a 12 but use ammo that doesn't stomp your guts out like a 3" or 3 1/2" lead turkey load but will still stomp a turkey at 40......put together 1 5/8 oz of TSS in a 2 3/4" shell.
This is what I would do if shooting a 12ga may even lower the weight to 1.25oz 1 3/8oz keeps killing patterns well past what we can talk on here.
I should have added, that I killed them with lead with a 12 for better than 25 years. So....TSS is definitely not necessary. I've only used the last two years. The reduction in recoil is my favorite part, but they are wicked. I didn't go for insane patterns either, but a little more forgiving hunting pattern.
Idk guys the whole theory of a lighter kicking load seems weak to me. Idk if I've ever felt any gun go off while hunting. Some of you boys need to toughen up!! Just kidding. Nowadays w the advent of lead sleds you won't get beat up patterning either.
I actually see the value in smaller gauges if that was your intent though.
My answer is actually a question. How tight of a choke does your gun have. The federal tends to like extremely tight chokes while the Apex tends to get better results with stuff that's a little more open.
I personally shoot 2 oz 2 3/4" handloads in my Benelli and 2oz 3" handloads and use a wad that's very similar to what Apex uses. I use a .665 in both my guns and get patterns that are way over 300/10". I can make it shoot tigher but I don't want a baseball sized pattern at 20 yards.
This worry about recoil surprises me. When the ducks and geese are flying, I might shoot a box of 3" shells a day. I'm talking about hunting in ND where the birds are plentiful. I used to use 3 1/2 for geese, now know they aren't necessary. I'd bet nobody worries about the kick when pulling the trigger once a day for turkeys.
TSS for ALL gauges for me! Except for 10 gauge which I use Nitro's.
Working on getting a 20 O/U and a 28 gauge for next year!
I already know that I will have an issue leaving My Ithaca Turkey slayer at home as it's my favorite 12 gauge. Man I love that gun.
Have a good one
Ray
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I use Federal.
It's not ten dollars a shot.
I can buy it locally for $32 a box.
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With a 12ga. I personally would stick with lead. I started handloading Tss 6 or 7 years ago for a 20ga to test it out. I have not toted a 12 since. The stuff is devestating. Some people scoff at it because of the price. Thing is , you are not dove hunting with the stuff. No doubt that shooting it through a 12ga would be extremely potent. I would put my 20 loaded with it up against any 12ga. The 20 with Tss exceeds the capability of a 12 ga with lead. It retains a pile more energy , does not deform and patterns are unbelievable. A tss #9 is on par with a lead #4 . You also can get alot more number 9s in a hull than number 4s. Lead has accounted for truckloads of birds and are very effective. #9 Tss just does it better.
I love lead. Killed a pile of turkeys with #5 Winchester Supremes in my SBE II. I love TSS. The ONLY reason I prefer TSS is I really enjoy loading my own and learning to make em better every time. There is something about killing a turkey with a shell I made (or watching someone else kill one with a shell I made!) that just adds to the excitement of the entire ball of wax right down to eating em!!!
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Nothing wrong with loading TSS at all... but I have enough Apex to last me lifetime ....lol..... don't have to worry about having the equipment or Tss shot laying around ... one type or load is all i need and i don't have to waste a lot sighting my gun over changing loads ... but for you who reload TSS ... that pretty neat also, it's all about enjoying turkey hunting ...
Quote from: jryser on May 25, 2019, 12:36:12 PM
I love lead. Killed a pile of turkeys with #5 Winchester Supremes in my SBE II. I love TSS. The ONLY reason I prefer TSS is I really enjoy loading my own and learning to make em better every time. There is something about killing a turkey with a shell I made (or watching someone else kill one with a shell I made!) that just adds to the excitement of the entire ball of wax right down to eating em!!!
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I fully understand loading and the idea of shooting shells you've made. Kinda adds more of you into it. The TSS aren't necessary for that. You could load any type shells if the only reason you use TSS is cause of loading
I got similar results out of each of them. As Gooserbat said, Federal liked to be choked tighter than Apex in my gun. I handload 2oz. 3" also, and use probably about the same exact setup that he does (Hal's recipe) with basically the same wad as Apex. My handloads did just a hair better than Apex out of my gun, but have a friend that tried both of them, and the Apex had about 20 more hits in the 10" for him. Close enough.
Anyway, I'd probably recommend getting the Federal, and using a tight choke. They are a couple of bucks cheaper per shell, and you can get them lots of places.
Quote from: Bowguy on May 25, 2019, 07:10:53 PM
Quote from: jryser on May 25, 2019, 12:36:12 PM
I love lead. Killed a pile of turkeys with #5 Winchester Supremes in my SBE II. I love TSS. The ONLY reason I prefer TSS is I really enjoy loading my own and learning to make em better every time. There is something about killing a turkey with a shell I made (or watching someone else kill one with a shell I made!) that just adds to the excitement of the entire ball of wax right down to eating em!!!
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I fully understand loading and the idea of shooting shells you've made. Kinda adds more of you into it. The TSS aren't necessary for that. You could load any type shells if the only reason you use TSS is cause of loading
True. I do like the extra clean kill chances too.
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Quote from: Bowguy on May 25, 2019, 07:10:53 PM
Quote from: jryser on May 25, 2019, 12:36:12 PM
I love lead. Killed a pile of turkeys with #5 Winchester Supremes in my SBE II. I love TSS. The ONLY reason I prefer TSS is I really enjoy loading my own and learning to make em better every time. There is something about killing a turkey with a shell I made (or watching someone else kill one with a shell I made!) that just adds to the excitement of the entire ball of wax right down to eating em!!!
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I fully understand loading and the idea of shooting shells you've made. Kinda adds more of you into it. The TSS aren't necessary for that. You could load any type shells if the only reason you use TSS is cause of loading
Was wondering about the loading and why no one seems to hand load HW7 or Hevi7 ?
Or even the lead 7 1/2 loads to replace the old federal some of you swear by with the high pellets counts it used to have?
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 25, 2019, 09:01:09 AM
With a 12ga. I personally would stick with lead. I started handloading Tss 6 or 7 years ago for a 20ga to test it out. I have not toted a 12 since. The stuff is devestating. Some people scoff at it because of the price. Thing is , you are not dove hunting with the stuff. No doubt that shooting it through a 12ga would be extremely potent. I would put my 20 loaded with it up against any 12ga. The 20 with Tss exceeds the capability of a 12 ga with lead. It retains a pile more energy , does not deform and patterns are unbelievable. A tss #9 is on par with a lead #4 . You also can get alot more number 9s in a hull than number 4s. Lead has accounted for truckloads of birds and are very effective. #9 Tss just does it better.
Please explain how a tss 9 is on par with a lead 4?
Quote from: owlhoot on May 25, 2019, 08:53:18 PM
Quote from: Bowguy on May 25, 2019, 07:10:53 PM
Quote from: jryser on May 25, 2019, 12:36:12 PM
I love lead. Killed a pile of turkeys with #5 Winchester Supremes in my SBE II. I love TSS. The ONLY reason I prefer TSS is I really enjoy loading my own and learning to make em better every time. There is something about killing a turkey with a shell I made (or watching someone else kill one with a shell I made!) that just adds to the excitement of the entire ball of wax right down to eating em!!!
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I fully understand loading and the idea of shooting shells you've made. Kinda adds more of you into it. The TSS aren't necessary for that. You could load any type shells if the only reason you use TSS is cause of loading
Was wondering about the loading and why no one seems to hand load HW7 or Hevi7 ?
Or even the lead 7 1/2 loads to replace the old federal some of you swear by with the high pellets counts it used to have?
One word. RECIPES
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Quote from: owlhoot on May 25, 2019, 08:54:49 PM
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 25, 2019, 09:01:09 AM
With a 12ga. I personally would stick with lead. I started handloading Tss 6 or 7 years ago for a 20ga to test it out. I have not toted a 12 since. The stuff is devestating. Some people scoff at it because of the price. Thing is , you are not dove hunting with the stuff. No doubt that shooting it through a 12ga would be extremely potent. I would put my 20 loaded with it up against any 12ga. The 20 with Tss exceeds the capability of a 12 ga with lead. It retains a pile more energy , does not deform and patterns are unbelievable. A tss #9 is on par with a lead #4 . You also can get alot more number 9s in a hull than number 4s. Lead has accounted for truckloads of birds and are very effective. #9 Tss just does it better.
The hardness of the Tss is much greater than lead. It retaines energy much greater than the lead. The hardness and diameter being smaller along with the retained energy equals greater penatration. Im not a load specialist and relied on the info that was passed on to me. I have tested Tss against lead and do have first hand knowlege on the penetration. Basically I was meaning that the energy in a TSS #9 is compatable to a lead #4. We strive for great patterns along with penitration and the TSS gives those. The only reason I would stick with lead is carrying a 12. The Tss shines with smaller gauges and makes the 20 just as effective as the 12 at 12 gauge distances.
Please explain how a tss 9 is on par with a lead 4?
Quote from: jryser on May 25, 2019, 09:10:09 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on May 25, 2019, 08:53:18 PM
Quote from: Bowguy on May 25, 2019, 07:10:53 PM
Quote from: jryser on May 25, 2019, 12:36:12 PM
I love lead. Killed a pile of turkeys with #5 Winchester Supremes in my SBE II. I love TSS. The ONLY reason I prefer TSS is I really enjoy loading my own and learning to make em better every time. There is something about killing a turkey with a shell I made (or watching someone else kill one with a shell I made!) that just adds to the excitement of the entire ball of wax right down to eating em!!!
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I fully understand loading and the idea of shooting shells you've made. Kinda adds more of you into it. The TSS aren't necessary for that. You could load any type shells if the only reason you use TSS is cause of loading
Was wondering about the loading and why no one seems to hand load HW7 or Hevi7 ?
Or even the lead 7 1/2 loads to replace the old federal some of you swear by with the high pellets counts it used to have?
One word. RECIPES
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That's not true. Most shot/components are available along w the recipes.
Quote from: owlhoot on May 25, 2019, 08:53:18 PM
Quote from: Bowguy on May 25, 2019, 07:10:53 PM
Quote from: jryser on May 25, 2019, 12:36:12 PM
I love lead. Killed a pile of turkeys with #5 Winchester Supremes in my SBE II. I love TSS. The ONLY reason I prefer TSS is I really enjoy loading my own and learning to make em better every time. There is something about killing a turkey with a shell I made (or watching someone else kill one with a shell I made!) that just adds to the excitement of the entire ball of wax right down to eating em!!!
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I fully understand loading and the idea of shooting shells you've made. Kinda adds more of you into it. The TSS aren't necessary for that. You could load any type shells if the only reason you use TSS is cause of loading
Was wondering about the loading and why no one seems to hand load HW7 or Hevi7 ?
Or even the lead 7 1/2 loads to replace the old federal some of you swear by with the high pellets counts it used to have?
I can only speak on a personal level. Most my guns have never seen a factory load. Pistols, rifles, shotguns. I'd cast heads for my muzzleloader, make arrows, etc. myself I don't mind the work n actually like it. To me though being so much is already on my plate setting up to load turkey loads is silly. I shoot a few shells a year. Even my gun wearing a red dot. It was 2 shots to check zero and I killed 3 birds this year. Prob most years 5 or less as I work. Not really worth setting myself up. Just buy a box every couple years.
Also I'll add many turkey specific items are way over priced, buying components is too pricey. TSS imo is not reloading its loading. Yet very differently than regular loads. At 10 bucks a shell it pays to load that.
I'll be honest another thing that's get me is there's like one recipe provided per gauge. You have no choices. It's just not for me. The buying shells with primers seems silly too. It's way cheaper to buy primers and seat em.
Take into account also forums are somewhat follow the leader. If someone says a load is best, call is best, bow is best, gun is best, etc pretty soon everyone needs to be on the bandwagon. This is not saying the loads don't work so dont mistake what I'm saying. The popularity of doing something somewhere sorta steers the ship.
How many times, does everyone swear a call is the cats meow only for a year to pass and us see them all posted for sale?
If you want to load another type shot just do a search for information or ask the company you buy the shot from for recipes. Also powder companies often have recipes as well as places that sell supplies and books w the recipes are available as well unless you load TSS. To my knowledge and I could be wrong but this seems much more limited
Bowguy , you make alot of good points in your post. It cost 200 bucks for components minus the tss to get started loading. Tss is around 50 bucks a pound. When I bought my first Tss several years ago I received load data for 3 different loads. I now have 7 or 8 different loads to choose from. Granted once you find a load you like then you dont need all of them. I also build my own arrows , work on my own bows and reload my own rifle rounds. You are absolutely correct about justlfying the cost and time to load. I can load probably 20 shells in a hour, so Im fine with it. I have enough Tss to last my lifetime times 3 probably. I love the stuff because I had never seen such impressive patterns before. Now I had seen some very very good ones but none better. I know that you had to experiment with different loads and chokes to find that optimal pattern but I found out pretty quick that this stuff patterns great with about with any gun choke combo. Factory chokes that come with your guns shoot the stuff well. In the end whats worth it to one may not be to another. You hit the nail on the head with the call part you used as an example. There are a few guys on here that I listen to their opinion about a certain call , but the majority I take no stock in. On this note , a man who has 4 or 5 pot calls says man this is the best pot call I have ever ran May be telling the truth in his opinion but I dont put any stock in it. Its very true that each year a certain call will be the talk of the forum until another comes along the next year to dethrone that one. Same with bows and everything else. A flagship bow comes out and then you see a truckload of the flagship bows from the previous year in the classifieds listed for half what they paid for it. They will say how smooth it is , solid backwall , holds solid , no vibration and how fast it is. "Best bow I have ever shot in my life" until the next one comes out the following year. Its the fact that alot of folks want the latest and sometimes not the greatest. I pretty much agree with your whole post bowguy. Very good points.
If your just looking to buy over the counter shells Apex and Nitro will put up higher pellet counts due to their larger payloads. Their shells are also more expensive and can be harder to get.
I highly recommend loading your own if you plan on committing to TSS. I like loading my own for a key reason, quality control. I load TSS because it's the best patterning shot out there. Their are multiple load options out there. That one recipe per gauge stuff is false, at least with who I buy my shot from. Biggest expense to it is the shot itself. Loading will save you a few bucks over the long haul but bottom line is TSS is expensive stuff. I think I'm loading a 2.5oz load for less than $9 a shell where a 2.5oz load from Apex is probably $12 if your paying shipping. From my experience the loading community seems like a great group of people willing to help. I was trying to load a 1.125oz load for my son and was having trouble finding the designated wad to use in that load. Made a post about needing that wad and a fella mailed me a bag of 100 for free.
You don't need the $10 shells to kill turkeys like you are doing now with lead, assuming you are using a 12 gauge now. You can drop down to a 20 gauge and produce tighter patterns than you ever have with a 12 gauge shooting lead. A lot of people are using around 1.5oz of TSS #9s and far exceeding what a 12 gauge with lead could ever do. Pile of people out there killing birds at 40 yards with complete confidence using a .410 as well, try that with lead. At 18g/cc in density for TSS and 11.6g/cc for lead it's not a competition.
I was a believer is TSS already but I did have an eye opening experience while patterning. I help coach a trapshooting team and we have a 1/4" steel plate for patterning. All the kids will shoot lead 7.5s or 8s at it and they will flatten out and leave no trace of being there besides removing the grease we put on there so we can see the pattern. My dad hadn't shot his turkey gun since he put sights on it and had it up there with him. At 40 yards the TSS 9s actually made dimples in the steel that has taken 100s of rounds of lead and shown no sign of it.
Quote from: Fdept56 on May 26, 2019, 09:21:23 AM
I was a believer is TSS already but I did have an eye opening experience while patterning. I help coach a trapshooting team and we have a 1/4" steel plate for patterning. All the kids will shoot lead 7.5s or 8s at it and they will flatten out and leave no trace of being there besides removing the grease we put on there so we can see the pattern. My dad hadn't shot his turkey gun since he put sights on it and had it up there with him. At 40 yards the TSS 9s actually made dimples in the steel that has taken 100s of rounds of lead and shown no sign of it.
I understand TSS is also harder and penetrates better but most guys don't try to shoot a bird through a guard rail.
There's no reason TSS may not be used by anyone. We each have our choices and reasons. Lead kills em just as dead. Please don't take anything wrong. More to consider if anyone else is reading and penetration is an issue.
To me and I've now witnessed a smaller gun pretty well impress me w TSS. It knocked birds down flat at 35-40 yards.
The idea was a smaller, lighter gun and still a dense killable pattern. That makes total sense and it def does that. The rest is really imo just justification to ourselves why we "need it". No justification needed. If it's something someone wants to use and can afford. God bless em
Quote from: Bowguy on May 26, 2019, 09:34:53 AM
Quote from: Fdept56 on May 26, 2019, 09:21:23 AM
I was a believer is TSS already but I did have an eye opening experience while patterning. I help coach a trapshooting team and we have a 1/4" steel plate for patterning. All the kids will shoot lead 7.5s or 8s at it and they will flatten out and leave no trace of being there besides removing the grease we put on there so we can see the pattern. My dad hadn't shot his turkey gun since he put sights on it and had it up there with him. At 40 yards the TSS 9s actually made dimples in the steel that has taken 100s of rounds of lead and shown no sign of it.
I understand TSS is also harder and penetrates better but most guys don't try to shoot a bird through a guard rail.
There's no reason TSS may not be used by anyone. We each have our choices and reasons. Lead kills em just as dead. Please don't take anything wrong. More to consider if anyone else is reading and penetration is an issue.
To me and I've now witnessed a smaller gun pretty well impress me w TSS. It knocked birds down flat at 35-40 yards.
The idea was a smaller, lighter gun and still a dense killable pattern. That makes total sense and it def does that. The rest is really imo just justification to ourselves why we "need it". No justification needed. If it's something someone wants to use and can afford. God bless em
Again , great post bowguy. The reasons you listed are the exact reasons I use it.
Quote from: Fdept56 on May 26, 2019, 09:21:23 AM
I was a believer is TSS already but I did have an eye opening experience while patterning. I help coach a trapshooting team and we have a 1/4" steel plate for patterning. All the kids will shoot lead 7.5s or 8s at it and they will flatten out and leave no trace of being there besides removing the grease we put on there so we can see the pattern. My dad hadn't shot his turkey gun since he put sights on it and had it up there with him. At 40 yards the TSS 9s actually made dimples in the steel that has taken 100s of rounds of lead and shown no sign of it.
.
No doubt. I will never go back to a 12 gauge and lead. My little 20 with # 9 Tss will out perform any 12 gauge out there with a load other than Tss out of it.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 26, 2019, 09:57:57 AM
Quote from: Fdept56 on May 26, 2019, 09:21:23 AM
I was a believer is TSS already but I did have an eye opening experience while patterning. I help coach a trapshooting team and we have a 1/4" steel plate for patterning. All the kids will shoot lead 7.5s or 8s at it and they will flatten out and leave no trace of being there besides removing the grease we put on there so we can see the pattern. My dad hadn't shot his turkey gun since he put sights on it and had it up there with him. At 40 yards the TSS 9s actually made dimples in the steel that has taken 100s of rounds of lead and shown no sign of it.
.
One more thing for anyone new reading. The lower sizes aren't legal everywhere. For instance in my state it's 7-1/2, NY is 8. Just a FYI so no one gets pinched. Check legalities
No doubt. I will never go back to a 12 gauge and lead. My little 20 with # 9 Tss will out perform any 12 gauge out there with a load other than Tss out of it.
Quote from: Bowguy on May 26, 2019, 09:34:53 AM
I understand TSS is also harder and penetrates better but most guys don't try to shoot a bird through a guard rail.
There's no reason TSS may not be used by anyone. We each have our choices and reasons. Lead kills em just as dead. Please don't take anything wrong. More to consider if anyone else is reading and penetration is an issue.
To me and I've now witnessed a smaller gun pretty well impress me w TSS. It knocked birds down flat at 35-40 yards.
The idea was a smaller, lighter gun and still a dense killable pattern. That makes total sense and it def does that. The rest is really imo just justification to ourselves why we "need it". No justification needed. If it's something someone wants to use and can afford. God bless em
You are 100% right. If I was still carrying a 12 I would probably be shooting lead still but I wanted to set up a 20 for some reason. I'm afraid TSS is being used in a way I wish it wasn't in bigger guns, but that rabbit has been chased down plenty of holes already. I just like the thought of being able to make my own hunting tools, I make my friction and mouth calls so I figured I might as well be in control of what does the actual killing too. I'm not saying TSS is a "must have" but I love that my 20 can outperform any 12 I've ever used.
I've enjoyed all the comment's about the TSS and before TSS was the shell to have for the 20 gauge , it was the Federal HW 7 so that's the shell i set my 20 gauge up for ... lol .... but the problem i have is i still have several Federal HW 7 and that shell in my opinion is still one of the best for a kill under 40 yards ... But i have been buying few boxes of the Apex 20 gauge shell alone with plans of building another 20 gauge one day .... now with my 410 it's different i shoot the Federal and Apex 410 loads .....I agree with Bowguy for years I've killed a lot of my turkeys with 12 ga. lead load .... so do you have to have TSS NO.. i don't think you have to have it .. but i wouldn't go back to the 12 gauge now with what's available for the 20 gauge ... great post guys .. At my age i see no need to start loading TSS , but for you younger guy's i see not reason you shouldn't load the shells if that what's you want to do....
Quote from: Greg Massey on May 26, 2019, 10:58:25 AM
I've enjoyed all the comment's about the TSS and before TSS was the shell to have for the 20 gauge , it was the Federal HW 7 so that's the shell i set my 20 gauge up for ... lol .... but the problem i have is i still have several Federal HW 7 and that shell in my opinion is still one of the best for a kill under 40 yards ... But i have been buying few boxes of the Apex 20 gauge shell alone with plans of building another 20 gauge one day .... now with my 410 it's different i shoot the Federal and Apex 410 loads .....I agree with Bowguy for years I've killed a lot of my turkeys with 12 ga. lead load .... so do you have to have TSS NO.. i don't think you have to have it .. but i wouldn't go back to the 12 gauge now with what's available for the 20 gauge ... great post guys ..
I actually have several hvy #7's that I first started using right before Tss. Now I chamber a tss and put 2 of the heavy weights behind it for back ups. The point of impact is pretty close so Im fine with that. I havent had to use a follow up yet so I dont have any results. Just thought I would throw that out there.
Quote from: Fdept56 on May 26, 2019, 10:37:00 AM
Quote from: Bowguy on May 26, 2019, 09:34:53 AM
I understand TSS is also harder and penetrates better but most guys don't try to shoot a bird through a guard rail.
There's no reason TSS may not be used by anyone. We each have our choices and reasons. Lead kills em just as dead. Please don't take anything wrong. More to consider if anyone else is reading and penetration is an issue.
To me and I've now witnessed a smaller gun pretty well impress me w TSS. It knocked birds down flat at 35-40 yards.
The idea was a smaller, lighter gun and still a dense killable pattern. That makes total sense and it def does that. The rest is really imo just justification to ourselves why we "need it". No justification needed. If it's something someone wants to use and can afford. God bless em
You are 100% right. If I was still carrying a 12 I would probably be shooting lead still but I wanted to set up a 20 for some reason. I'm afraid TSS is being used in a way I wish it wasn't in bigger guns, but that rabbit has been chased down plenty of holes already. I just like the thought of being able to make my own hunting tools, I make my friction and mouth calls so I figured I might as well be in control of what does the actual killing too. I'm not saying TSS is a "must have" but I love that my 20 can outperform any 12 I've ever used.
The note you do yourself the more of yourself is involved. It's a good thing.
Take "bowhunting" nowadays as an example.
Years ago we sat behind hay bales in summer w binocs long range scouting. Did some foot work in late winter. Nearer the season perhaps a quick mid day walk to help piece it together. We'd glue or screw heads on after we practiced all summer. Sharpen them ourselves until they shaved hair. Maybe make an extra bowstring as well.
So we're finally able to connect and we take out the knife we ourselves sharpened, drag it home and personally butcher it.
Nowadays, folks call cabelas. Order a crossbow, shoot it once to sight in. Bait a treestand, camera tells you what n when. Guys show up a 1/2 hr early to shoot.
The disposable blade knife comes out to clean deer than it goes to a butcher. Most is donated anyway .
Kind of a shame. Folks don't realize how much more involved they'd feel if they tied a fly, made a call, loaded a shell.
Something really cool about that at first. First time your shell kills a turkey, your arrow kills a deer, a fish rises to your fly, I don't make calls but I guarantee that's a blast too!!
Thank God some fellas still understand. It's a bigger sense of accomplishment I wanna say at first cause after a bit we still do it and wouldn't do it another way but the amazement it worked is gone.
People don't realize (not cursing any company) no one is gonna baby a shell together like you are. I've never once had a misfire, feathers don't fall off arrows, etc.
If doing it yourself was the reason for loading I certainly understand that
Quote from: Bowguy on May 26, 2019, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: Fdept56 on May 26, 2019, 10:37:00 AM
Quote from: Bowguy on May 26, 2019, 09:34:53 AM
I understand TSS is also harder and penetrates better but most guys don't try to shoot a bird through a guard rail.
There's no reason TSS may not be used by anyone. We each have our choices and reasons. Lead kills em just as dead. Please don't take anything wrong. More to consider if anyone else is reading and penetration is an issue.
To me and I've now witnessed a smaller gun pretty well impress me w TSS. It knocked birds down flat at 35-40 yards.
The idea was a smaller, lighter gun and still a dense killable pattern. That makes total sense and it def does that. The rest is really imo just justification to ourselves why we "need it". No justification needed. If it's something someone wants to use and can afford. God bless em
You are 100% right. If I was still carrying a 12 I would probably be shooting lead still but I wanted to set up a 20 for some reason. I'm afraid TSS is being used in a way I wish it wasn't in bigger guns, but that rabbit has been chased down plenty of holes already. I just like the thought of being able to make my own hunting tools, I make my friction and mouth calls so I figured I might as well be in control of what does the actual killing too. I'm not saying TSS is a "must have" but I love that my 20 can outperform any 12 I've ever used.
The note you do yourself the more of yourself is involved. It's a good thing.
Take "bowhunting" nowadays as an example.
Years ago we sat behind hay bales in summer w binocs long range scouting. Did some foot work in late winter. Nearer the season perhaps a quick mid day walk to help piece it together. We'd glue or screw heads on after we practiced all summer. Sharpen them ourselves until they shaved hair. Maybe make an extra bowstring as well.
So we're finally able to connect and we take out the knife we ourselves sharpened, drag it home and personally butcher it.
Nowadays, folks call cabelas. Order a crossbow, shoot it once to sight in. Bait a treestand, camera tells you what n when. Guys show up a 1/2 hr early to shoot.
The disposable blade knife comes out to clean deer than it goes to a butcher. Most is donated anyway .
Kind of a shame. Folks don't realize how much more involved they'd feel if they tied a fly, made a call, loaded a shell.
Something really cool about that at first. First time your shell kills a turkey, your arrow kills a deer, a fish rises to your fly, I don't make calls but I guarantee that's a blast too!!
Thank God some fellas still understand. It's a bigger sense of accomplishment I wanna say at first cause after a bit we still do it and wouldn't do it another way but the amazement it worked is gone.
People don't realize (not cursing any company) no one is gonna baby a shell together like you are. I've never once had a misfire, feathers don't fall off arrows, etc.
If doing it yourself was the reason for loading I certainly understand that
I agree , back in the day , if you wanted to make improvements to your equipment it was all up to you , fletching arrow's , loading shells , scouting etc .. I remember the first real hunting knife Buck 110 , that was a knife and still is fine knife .. i agree it's gotten a lot easier through the years .. as we get older we have to take advantage of some of this newer equipment .. it just makes it easier on my OLD body ... but i will have to say i like the new knives with the replaceable blades, my foodsaver etc .. i still process all my deer from start to finish ... I still process all my wild game ... and that's what the wife and i eat most of the time... Now don't get me wrong we still buy pork steaks and beef steak from the store's ... those are pretty good on the grill...
Yes this has been a good post and I want to thank everyone one for their replys I think my ??s have been answered I think for now I'll stick with what I'm using BUT I can see the possibility that in the future that some states and some public lands will outlaw the use of lead and it's always good to research alternative options plus this post has helped my end of season boredom
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 25, 2019, 10:01:32 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on May 25, 2019, 08:54:49 PM
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 25, 2019, 09:01:09 AM
With a 12ga. I personally would stick with lead. I started handloading Tss 6 or 7 years ago for a 20ga to test it out. I have not toted a 12 since. The stuff is devestating. Some people scoff at it because of the price. Thing is , you are not dove hunting with the stuff. No doubt that shooting it through a 12ga would be extremely potent. I would put my 20 loaded with it up against any 12ga. The 20 with Tss exceeds the capability of a 12 ga with lead. It retains a pile more energy , does not deform and patterns are unbelievable. A tss #9 is on par with a lead #4 . You also can get alot more number 9s in a hull than number 4s. Lead has accounted for truckloads of birds and are very effective. #9 Tss just does it better.
The hardness of the Tss is much greater than lead. It retaines energy much greater than the lead. The hardness and diameter being smaller along with the retained energy equals greater penatration. Im not a load specialist and relied on the info that was passed on to me. I have tested Tss against lead and do have first hand knowlege on the penetration. Basically I was meaning that the energy in a TSS #9 is compatable to a lead #4. We strive for great patterns along with penitration and the TSS gives those. The only reason I would stick with lead is carrying a 12. The Tss shines with smaller gauges and makes the 20 just as effective as the 12 at 12 gauge distances.
Please explain how a tss 9 is on par with a lead 4?
? How did you compare penetration between the two? Is the test report on here?
Get a 1/4" piece of plywood and shoot both at 30 yards . Repeat in 10 yard increments out to 50.I dont do reports on this stuff , i do my own personal testing. Google the hardness of tss vs lead and you will see the weight coupled with the hardness along with the smaller diameter equals greater penetration. Do some research , dont take my word for it.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 26, 2019, 01:28:03 PM
Get a 1/4" piece of plywood and shoot both at 30 yards . Repeat in 10 yard increments out to 50.I dont do reports on this stuff , i do my own personal testing. Google the hardness of tss vs lead and you will see the weight coupled with the hardness along with the smaller diameter equals greater penetration. Do some research , dont take my word for it.
Oh been doing a lot of research, reading anyway. Have shot HW7 and lead 5 into phone books. Personal testing. Smaller diameter penetrates better, yep. Weight penetrates better, yep.
Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.
No problem my friend. Wish I could give you more technical info on the topic.
Quote from: Yoteduster on May 26, 2019, 11:35:33 AM
Yes this has been a good post and I want to thank everyone one for their replys I think my ??s have been answered I think for now I'll stick with what I'm using BUT I can see the possibility that in the future that some states and some public lands will outlaw the use of lead and it's always good to research alternative options plus this post has helped my end of season boredom
That's something that hasn't been mentioned much. The possibility lead could be outlawed. Good thinking
I can remember way back when they banned lead for waterfowl, what a mess that was for a couple years before they started producing some decent steel shot loads I know a few guys that gave up duck hunting because of that so I like to keep up on things
Quote from: Yoteduster on May 26, 2019, 02:46:51 PM
I can remember way back when they banned lead for waterfowl, what a mess that was for a couple years before they started producing some decent steel shot loads I know a few guys that gave up duck hunting because of that so I like to keep up on things
Your right , no reason not to think ahead ....
Lead shot is now outlawed for shot and 7/1/2019 for bullets in California
Quote from: NCL on May 26, 2019, 07:26:28 PM
Lead shot is now outlawed for shot and 7/1/2019 for bullets in California
Not surprising from the LEFT coast!!!!!!
Yep..and I can see it coming from several other states in the future
The interesting part about the law is dove and quail hunting are exempt from the ban, here is a quote from a Q&A on the DFW: "When hunting bighorn sheep, or when using a shotgun to hunt waterfowl or upland game birds (except for dove, quail, snipe and any upland game birds taken on licensed game bird clubs) you must use nonlead ammunition." I would think more lead shot is fired in one hour of dove season than years of turkey hunting.
No doubt. Its people in Legislature making laws that have no common sense. Another possibility is under the table dealing. Down here in Mississippi they passed a law allowing single shot rifles during primitive weapon season. The excuse was that it would increase the number of people hunting. Could be but found out that auto insurance companies had a hand is getting that law passed. They were tired of paying out deer/auto claims and like any good business , are finding ways to increase profits.Who knows , but the non use of lead for hunting is a joke in my personal opinion.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 27, 2019, 10:02:56 AM
No doubt. Its people in Legislature making laws that have no common sense. Another possibility is under the table dealing. Down here in Mississippi they passed a law allowing single shot rifles during primitive weapon season. The excuse was that it would increase the number of people hunting. Could be but found out that auto insurance companies had a hand is getting that law passed. They were tired of paying out deer/auto claims and like any good business , are finding ways to increase profits.Who knows , but the non use of lead for hunting is a joke in my personal opinion.
There was a gun shop near me. There was a fellow there had some ducks. Daffy n Donald he called em. Each day he feed them he put lead shot in with their feed. They were already adults but one lived 7 years one 8 and that was directly injesting lead every day.
Not scientific and only two birds but maybe his were tougher than the ones where the laws against lead are?
Quote from: NCL on May 27, 2019, 07:44:55 AM
The interesting part about the law is dove and quail hunting are exempt from the ban, here is a quote from a Q&A on the DFW: "When hunting bighorn sheep, or when using a shotgun to hunt waterfowl or upland game birds (except for dove, quail, snipe and any upland game birds taken on licensed game bird clubs) you must use nonlead ammunition." I would think more lead shot is fired in one hour of dove season than years of turkey hunting.
That was only during the phase in period...
All non-tox for all hunting with firearms starting July 1, 2019...
I don't think I've killed a turkey with lead in almost 20 years, non-tox just outperforms lead by such a wide margin...
Quote from: bbcoach on May 26, 2019, 07:48:20 PM
Quote from: NCL on May 26, 2019, 07:26:28 PM
Lead shot is now outlawed for shot and 7/1/2019 for bullets in California
Not surprising from the LEFT coast!!!!!!
I hate to say it bit with the dictator we have here in NY I am sure it will happen soon here as well. Hated his father and hate him even more. He is incredibly left wing. I want to see so called upstate succeed from NYC and they can keep Albany and Schenectady as well.
Quote from: Bowguy on May 27, 2019, 10:38:45 AM
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 27, 2019, 10:02:56 AM
No doubt. Its people in Legislature making laws that have no common sense. Another possibility is under the table dealing. Down here in Mississippi they passed a law allowing single shot rifles during primitive weapon season. The excuse was that it would increase the number of people hunting. Could be but found out that auto insurance companies had a hand is getting that law passed. They were tired of paying out deer/auto claims and like any good business , are finding ways to increase profits.Who knows , but the non use of lead for hunting is a joke in my personal opinion.
There was a gun shop near me. There was a fellow there had some ducks. Daffy n Donald he called em. Each day he feed them he put lead shot in with their feed. They were already adults but one lived 7 years one 8 and that was directly injesting lead every day.
Not scientific and only two birds but maybe his were tougher than the ones where the laws against lead are?
Out in the wetlands I would bet that tons more ducks are dying from wounding with steel shot than lead shot being ingested will ever be.
Quote from: owlhoot on May 27, 2019, 05:45:04 PM
Quote from: Bowguy on May 27, 2019, 10:38:45 AM
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 27, 2019, 10:02:56 AM
No doubt. Its people in Legislature making laws that have no common sense. Another possibility is under the table dealing. Down here in Mississippi they passed a law allowing single shot rifles during primitive weapon season. The excuse was that it would increase the number of people hunting. Could be but found out that auto insurance companies had a hand is getting that law passed. They were tired of paying out deer/auto claims and like any good business , are finding ways to increase profits.Who knows , but the non use of lead for hunting is a joke in my personal opinion.
There was a gun shop near me. There was a fellow there had some ducks. Daffy n Donald he called em. Each day he feed them he put lead shot in with their feed. They were already adults but one lived 7 years one 8 and that was directly injesting lead every day.
Not scientific and only two birds but maybe his were tougher than the ones where the laws against lead are?
Out in the wetlands I would bet that tons more ducks are dying from wounding with steel shot than lead shot being ingested will ever be.
Guess that depends on who is doing the shooting. Few years I was doing harvest surveys for the state. I killed 147 ducks one year w steel. My buddy Jimmy was doing wing surveys. His number was lower this particular year since his son was born in December. Neither of us shoot chokes any fuller than ic, sometimes skeet.
Remember steel tends to tighten a pattern up but the point is the birds were shot in the face decoying at 10-15 yards. The effective range of the combo was way adhered to. Forgot to mention 20 ga at times were used.
Now did we lose birds? Any duck hunter will tell you it's tough not to but we had a dog, shot within effective range, quickly followed up/dispatched cripples. The loss was very minimal.
Some skybusting moron pass shooting woulda done lots worse.
So how do you regulate effective range? You can't. Every load has em though it varies with payload and shot type. We need to be careful before we shoot.
Your point is very valid though in some areas with some hunters I'm sure but it is somewhat avoidable
Quote from: mudhen on May 27, 2019, 04:03:11 PM
Quote from: NCL on May 27, 2019, 07:44:55 AM
The interesting part about the law is dove and quail hunting are exempt from the ban, here is a quote from a Q&A on the DFW: "When hunting bighorn sheep, or when using a shotgun to hunt waterfowl or upland game birds (except for dove, quail, snipe and any upland game birds taken on licensed game bird clubs) you must use nonlead ammunition." I would think more lead shot is fired in one hour of dove season than years of turkey hunting.
That was only during the phase in period...
All non-tox for all hunting with firearms starting July 1, 2019...
I don't think I've killed a turkey with lead in almost 20 years, non-tox just outperforms lead by such a wide margin...
I checked this morning and Mudhen's information is more current. The Q&A quoted above is apparently old information although I could not find it to check the date. I did find DFW notes that indicate non-toxic will be required for all species effective 7-1-2019