I keep hearing that Win. LB shells may pattern "TOO TIGHT" at 20yds. and under...well I'm pretty sure in my 25 or so years of turkey huntin' the patterns have ALWAYS been extremely tight at 20 & under....now granted the LB may be a little bit tighter than any other shell,but not by much. It seems quite an easy ordeal to overcome....just as I was taught and I still go by aim at the base of the neck where the body starts to widen....pretty easy to me....aim there and I don't care WHAT shell your shooting,he's goin' for a ride in the truck!!!!! Lets hear some in-put!!!! And please keep it tactful.
My 20 yard pattern with the long beards is about the size of your fist. I'm not a veteran turkey hunter by any means but I've always shot my turkeys before they got too close.
Well, I'll agree that patterns at 20 yards with most guns will be tight based on choke configuration. Having said that, these aren't you're 25 year old lead loads. Out of my gun, prior to switching to TSS, the Winchester LB's were tight enough at 20 that it wouldn't have taken much at all to miss a bird. It was tighter than a baseball and in the heat of the moment, a guy that's used to aiming at the head may not think about going for the carunkles. Just a thought.
At 20 and under, everything is tight.
Gods of Thunder
2015 Old Gobbler contest Champions
Probably gonna take some heat for this but oh well! Most turkey guns and loads are dang tight under 20 yards. So I still use the instructions my uncle gave me 23 years ago. He told me to shoot him in the neck unless he's "right tight to ya". Then forget about the neck and put it on his beard. I'm not at all afraid to body shoot a bird that is "right tight"! Ok, let me have it!
Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and a large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.
Quote from: Longshanks on June 19, 2016, 07:38:46 PM
Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and A large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.
I may not be this^^^^But I'm close to it. I'm just not a fan of them. There is no room for error. And sometimes I make some errors. I don't like missing. JMO
Quote from: Longshanks on June 19, 2016, 07:38:46 PM
Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and A large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.
At this point, I've shot several hundreds of WLB shells, from the 1st batch to the current loads. I've shot the 1 3/4 & 1 7/8 oz 3" loads of #6s extensively and the #4s & #5s to a lesser extent. I've also shot some of all 3 sizes of the 3.5" but far fewer than the 3" versions.
These shells were designed as "extended range" shells and most efforts to get them to shoot larger patterns at ranges under 40 yards can be exercises in frustration. The early loads are exceptionally tight, even at 40 yards, as witnessed by the last 2 still target competitions when some of the 1st WLB shells that were loaded were shot at these events.
Many times, at least with some of the later loads, thinking has to be changed to open them up some. If the resin slug is not fractured or fractured completely, the choke must serve as the secondary source of fracturing the slug to help open up the patterns. Otherwise, the only way it will fracture is air pressure after it's exited the muzzle.
If you rely upon the choke as a secondary source of fracturing the slug, it must do so physically with some type of restriction or wad stopper action. A tighter e.d.
may produce a more open pattern but please note the emphasis on the word
may. Again, it's really all about the whole internal geometry of the choke.
Since we tend to think that more open chokes produce more open patterns, this flies in the face of what we've done with other shells in the past and it does not always work.
One of the most asked questions to me over the last year or so, is something like "How can I get a more open pattern with WLB shell?" After firing case after case of them, the very best answer that I know how to give is what I've just said here. it was designed as a long range shell and the best way to get more open patterns would be to use another shell, Hevi-13 for example, if most of your shots are under 40 yards and if you have concerns about missing a turkey at those ranges. Otherwise, you could spend a lot of time, energy and money trying to accomplish something that is very difficult if not impossible to achieve.
Thanks,
Clark
07.26.16 Correction of the word "not" to the word "note" in para #4
Quote from: allaboutshooting on June 19, 2016, 09:33:45 PM
Quote from: Longshanks on June 19, 2016, 07:38:46 PM
Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and A large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.
At this point, I've shot several hundreds of WLB shells, from the 1st batch to the current loads. I've shot the 1 3/4 & 1 7/8 oz 3" loads of #6s extensively and the #4s & #5s to a lesser extent. I've also shot some of all 3 sizes of the 3.5" but far fewer than the 3" versions.
These shells were designed as "extended range" shells and most efforts to get them to shoot larger patterns at ranges under 40 yards can be exercises in frustration. The early loads are exceptionally tight, even at 40 yards, as witnessed by the last 2 still target competitions when some of the 1st WLB shells that were loaded were shot at these events.
Many times, at least with some of the later loads, thinking has to be changed to open them up some. If the resin slug is not fractured or fractured completely, the choke must serve as the secondary source of fracturing the slug to help open up the patterns. Otherwise, the only way it will fracture is air pressure after it's exited the muzzle.
If you rely upon the choke as a secondary source of fracturing the slug, it must do so physically with some type of restriction or wad stopper action. A tighter e.d. may produce a more open pattern but please not the emphasis on the word may. Again, it's really all about the whole internal geometry of the choke.
Since we tend to think that more open chokes produce more open patterns, this flies in the face of what we've done with other shells in the past and it does not always work.
One of the most asked questions to me over the last year or so, is something like "How can I get a more open pattern with WLB shell?" After firing case after case of them, the very best answer that I know how to give is what I've just said here. it was designed as a long range shell and the best way to get more open patterns would be to use another shell, Hevi-13 for example, if most of your shots are under 40 yards and if you have concerns about missing a turkey at those ranges. Otherwise, you could spend a lot of time, energy and money trying to accomplish something that is very difficult if not impossible to achieve.
Thanks,
Clark
I agree..shooting Hevi 13 and Fed HW7's out of all of my turkey guns now due to the 20yd and 40yd consistent patterns that have some margin for error. Inside 40yds is all that I am looking for when comes to shooting at a turkey. The fun starts when the turkey gets inside 40yds and the odds of a clean kill go way up.
I can take game loads and cut their heads off at 20. missing is just part of the game aim small miss small squeeze the trigger. Most misses come from flinch not too tight of a pattern its just a tough pill to swallow all the money in guns ammo and chokes and missing, but most people sight in out of lead sleds and sand bags unless you carry these sighting devices hunting sit down and sight in just like you hunt it will make a difference. when you miss targets you will learn to aim and squeeze not point and punch.
QuoteI agree..shooting Hevi 13 and Fed HW7's out of all of my turkey guns now due to the 20yd and 40yd consistent patterns that have some margin for error. Inside 40yds is all that I am looking for when comes to shooting at a turkey. The fun starts when the turkey gets inside 40yds and the odds of a clean kill go way up.
In the last few weeks, I've spent as much time as is possible at the range, with different shells, chokes and guns.The still target shooting season is in full swing and the World Championship shoot will be here before we know it. This shooting is all at 40 yards from the muzzle of the gun, no rest is allowed and we shoot from a seated position like we would when hunting turkeys. Our target is a 3" red circle and only the pellets within that circle that do not cut the outer border count.
With the introduction of the WLB shells, we've watched scored steadily climb and not by just a few pellets but by very many. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when we shot some of the first production shells recently (the NWTF had these stored and sent them out to shoot at 2 events) we saw record numbers at 2 events. One event was in KY and one was in SC, same days at roughly the same hours.
These are very tight shooting shells!
When I shoot them at 20, 25, 30 or 35 yards, regardless of the choke type, it's the norm to see very tight patterns. There are other shells that will produce much more "forgiving" patterns at these ranges.
I like those 25 yards shots at turkeys.
Thanks,
Clark
Quote from: Farmboy27 on June 19, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
Probably gonna take some heat for this but oh well! Most turkey guns and loads are dang tight under 20 yards. So I still use the instructions my uncle gave me 23 years ago. He told me to shoot him in the neck unless he's "right tight to ya". Then forget about the neck and put it on his beard. I'm not at all afraid to body shoot a bird that is "right tight"! Ok, let me have it!
i agree with your teachings after missing a bird at 15 steps a few years ago and after talking to my dad about it he said when they are that close put the bead on his wing and body shoot him
if you like to eat the turkey you shoot like i do,then shooting them in the wing or the beard at 15 or 20 yards with long beards would destroy every bit of the meat you tried so hard to get.i couldnt imigine shooting one like that,i never even shoot one in full strut.its way to easy to cluck and get them to stick their head up and shoot them with a good shell you are confident in and have patterned your gun with.but to each their own,if you are thinking of doing this i think you should shoot some win long beards and see just how tight they are,out of my gun the hole they make at 15 and 20 yards look like you have shot a large sabbot about the size of a dip can,and thats with every choke i have tried.i may be like a dinosour,but i still shoot the old winchester supremes,they shoot a perfect killing pattern at any range out to 40 for me,i tried the longbeards one season and i think they are great for competition shooting,but for hunting its hard to beat the old supremes especially from 20 to 30 yards where the majority of turkeys are shot.
Shooting lead loads I find the best hunting loads to be Win XX, Super-X, and HV. Most consistent results year after year and shoot great patterns to 40yds after some experimenting with chokes. 140's-160's in a 10 @ 40 are fantastic patterns in the turkey woods.
I can remember times when I've had turkeys "surprise" me by showing up much closer that I thought they were. I've had them come in from a side I was not expecting and be really close, too close for a shot and even too close to move without being seen.
I learned, over the years that I did not have to take a shot at turkey just because he was there. As a hunter, I always have the option to not take a shot as much as I have the option to take a shot. I've often said "If he's out of range, he has another day and so do you."
That can equally apply to a turkey that's too close. You can always let him walk. Maybe he'll give you a shot at range at which you're more comfortable, maybe he won't but either way, you as a hunter always have the choice or option not to shoot as much as you have the option or choice to shoot.
We all enjoy the sport of turkey hunting. It's the thrill of being outdoors, hearing the gobble, calling in a beautiful bird and if conditions are right, taking the shot to cleanly kill him and take him home. If the conditions are not right to take the shot, we've still had the wonderful opportunity to be in the great outdoors and see a beautiful bird. The choice is always ours.
By spending time at the range, we can determine not only how the shells shoot but how we shoot them. Range time is really just another part of the hunting experience. Tight shooting shells have their place but other shells that are more forgiving do as well.
Thanks,
Clark
I've used LB #6, 3" for a couple of years now and I can't say enough good about them...Do they shoot tight? Yep...So far, knock on wood, I haven't missed one with them. I love that they hold a tight pattern out to 40 yds. Something I've devoted a LOT of time to over the years. I always look at it the same way I look at the challenge of shooting a rifle well. Sure the challenge increases the closer you are, as it does inversely with a rifle, but so does the reward... Aim, breathe, squeeze...When you can be consistent, it's a reward just like being a competent bow shot...That said, I do shoot a Burris Fast Fire III on my gun. Had I not gotten that, I might well be singing a different tune...I think an aiming device and these new tight shooting shells go hand in hand...
Quote from: greentag on August 20, 2016, 06:31:31 PM
if you like to eat the turkey you shoot like i do,then shooting them in the wing or the beard at 15 or 20 yards with long beards would destroy every bit of the meat you tried so hard to get.i couldnt imigine shooting one like that,i never even shoot one in full strut.its way to easy to cluck and get them to stick their head up and shoot them with a good shell you are confident in and have patterned your gun with.but to each their own,if you are thinking of doing this i think you should shoot some win long beards and see just how tight they are,out of my gun the hole they make at 15 and 20 yards look like you have shot a large sabbot about the size of a dip can,and thats with every choke i have tried.i may be like a dinosour,but i still shoot the old winchester supremes,they shoot a perfect killing pattern at any range out to 40 for me,i tried the longbeards one season and i think they are great for competition shooting,but for hunting its hard to beat the old supremes especially from 20 to 30 yards where the majority of turkeys are shot.
So body shooting a turkey and messing up some meat is wrong. Where do you shoot deer? I hope you shoot them in the head because anywhere else is going to waste some meat. I hunt to kill. Sure I love the experience, the challenge, and the time in the woods. But when it all comes down to it, I'm out there trying to kill an animal. I will happily take any shot that I feel will kill the animal quickly. That's what I'm there for. If you're not out to kill, then why carry a gun? Cameras are lighter.
"So body shooting a turkey and messing up some meat is wrong. Where do you shoot deer? I hope you shoot them in the head because anywhere else is going to waste some meat. I hunt to kill. Sure I love the experience, the challenge, and the time in the woods. But when it all comes down to it, I'm out there trying to kill an animal. I will happily take any shot that I feel will kill the animal quickly. That's what I'm there for. If you're not out to kill, then why carry a gun? Cameras are lighter."
I know this is a thread about LBs being "too tight", but couldn't let the body shooting of turkeys pass without comment. I would never intentionally body shoot an unwounded turkey. The argument about body shooting deer is not applicable. Yes, I shoot deer in the body, a single projectile through the lungs that destroys zero meat that I intend to eat (I do not eat the ribs). Body shooting a turkey at 20 yds with LBs would destroy the vast majority of the usable meat - an unacceptable outcome to me.
With regards to LBs being "too tight", they are just optimized for different distances than conventional turkey loads. While most conventional loads are optimized for 20-40 yd shots, LBs are optimized for 30-50 yd shots. The 50 yd patterns I have seen are beautiful, dense, even patterns. I will concede the need to alter ones hold with LBs on close in birds - that would mean waddles as opposed to the head. But never the body.
I think Longbeards can be really tight. Id actually stopped using them in my old faithful 835. I bought an Ithaca turkey slayer this winter n it patterened LB great w some chokes. I'm confident w that pattern at almost any turkey hunting range. Due to numerous probs w that gun I didn't get to use it much but Ill be carrying it next hunt. No holes in pattern dense yet Spread out sufficient
Quote from: BandedSpur on August 22, 2016, 08:37:01 AM
"So body shooting a turkey and messing up some meat is wrong. Where do you shoot deer? I hope you shoot them in the head because anywhere else is going to waste some meat. I hunt to kill. Sure I love the experience, the challenge, and the time in the woods. But when it all comes down to it, I'm out there trying to kill an animal. I will happily take any shot that I feel will kill the animal quickly. That's what I'm there for. If you're not out to kill, then why carry a gun? Cameras are lighter."
I know this is a thread about LBs being "too tight", but couldn't let the body shooting of turkeys pass without comment. I would never intentionally body shoot an unwounded turkey. The argument about body shooting deer is not applicable. Yes, I shoot deer in the body, a single projectile through the lungs that destroys zero meat that I intend to eat (I do not eat the ribs). Body shooting a turkey at 20 yds with LBs would destroy the vast majority of the usable meat - an unacceptable outcome to me.
With regards to LBs being "too tight", they are just optimized for different distances than conventional turkey loads. While most conventional loads are optimized for 20-40 yd shots, LBs are optimized for 30-50 yd shots. The 50 yd patterns I have seen are beautiful, dense, even patterns. I will concede the need to alter ones hold with LBs on close in birds - that would mean waddles as opposed to the head. But never the body.
Ribs have meat on them! But it's the biggest vital target on a deer and the easiest to hit so wasting the meat is ok. Same goes for shoulders. When a turkey is close the easiest shot is the body. But that's not ok? I guess I just don't get it. No worries though. Do what you do and I'll do what I do! And I'm sure we will both enjoy our hunting just the same!
Quote from: BandedSpur on August 22, 2016, 08:37:01 AM
"So body shooting a turkey and messing up some meat is wrong. Where do you shoot deer? I hope you shoot them in the head because anywhere else is going to waste some meat. I hunt to kill. Sure I love the experience, the challenge, and the time in the woods. But when it all comes down to it, I'm out there trying to kill an animal. I will happily take any shot that I feel will kill the animal quickly. That's what I'm there for. If you're not out to kill, then why carry a gun? Cameras are lighter."
I know this is a thread about LBs being "too tight", but couldn't let the body shooting of turkeys pass without comment. I would never intentionally body shoot an unwounded turkey. The argument about body shooting deer is not applicable. Yes, I shoot deer in the body, a single projectile through the lungs that destroys zero meat that I intend to eat (I do not eat the ribs). Body shooting a turkey at 20 yds with LBs would destroy the vast majority of the usable meat - an unacceptable outcome to me.
With regards to LBs being "too tight", they are just optimized for different distances than conventional turkey loads. While most conventional loads are optimized for 20-40 yd shots, LBs are optimized for 30-50 yd shots. The 50 yd patterns I have seen are beautiful, dense, even patterns. I will concede the need to alter ones hold with LBs on close in birds - that would mean waddles as opposed to the head. But never the body.
exactly,...im there to kill a turkey too,and do so alot,but im not going to shoot one in the body and destroy the whole thing just so i can say yeah i got one.i think people who have hunted turkeys and know the challenge but have not ever killed one may do this just so they can finally say they got one,other than that i dont know anyone who thinks bodyshooting one at 15 to 20 yards is an acceptable way to kill a turkey!and i would say 99% of the people on this forum agree. i wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers,was just stating the facts in my previous post,oh and you can keep the camera,im not there to make a show either,i actually kill em and eat em.sorry to the others,and to the original person for highjacking the thread,that was never my intentions i promise,i will not write nothing else on the thread.sorry ya'll
In my opinion deliberately body shooting a turkey may be legal,but is unethical and nothing more than publicized wanton waste. :popcorn:
They shot well out of my Ithaca too. Ended w 4 birds last season w them. Heavy 13 wouldn't eject. That prob was fixed by Ithaca but will prob still shoot long beards. Mike
Quote from: 1iagobblergetter on August 23, 2016, 01:23:32 PM
In my opinion deliberately body shooting a turkey may be legal,but is unethical and nothing more than publicized wanton waste. :popcorn:
I try not to waste any more meat than necessary on any game animal. If a doe is close, she gets head shot. If at all possible so does a turkey. I don't head shoot buck. Why? Because I want the horns. So I'll waste some meat. If I can't head shoot a turkey close then I'll body shoot. Why? Because I want the beard. I don't hunt because I need meat. I give almost all my turkey and deer meat away. I grew up in a hunting family but we almost never ate any wild game. I have never had a taste for it. But I love to hunt. I never thought that I had to eat what I killed to justify it. I grew up with beef in the pasture, pigs in the pen and chickens and turkeys in the yard. Hunting was a get away, not a means to get food. It doesn't mean I wantonly waste meat. (I even cut the rib meat from deer, even though I'm giving it away). But it means that if I feel a body shot on a bird is my best chance, then I'm taking it. I've only done it a few times and still have gotten some breast meat and the drumsticks every time. I know that the politically correct thing is to say that I eat every thing I shoot and I save every ounce of meat I can. But I get far too few chances to hunt to be politically correct.
Well I guess that if I had to body shoot a turkey breast just to get a turkey I would be looking for a new gun and load combo . Becoming a better shot may be a good idea too as wasting a turkey breast isn't what I had in mind . But do like to get one as much as the next guy.
Shooting a deer in the ribs with a 06 is no comparison at all , very minimal meat lost.
Won't blow a rabbit or squirrel in half with a 12 gauge just to kill them either.
Whether you give the meat away or use it yourself does not matter .If you can't do that just go to the store.
So do you guys eat all the groundhogs, coyotes, crows, and coons you shoot? They are all made of meat ya know!
Quote from: Farmboy27 on August 24, 2016, 06:11:51 PM
So do you guys eat all the groundhogs, coyotes, crows, and coons you shoot? They are all made of meat ya know!
Hint...I'd probably quit kicking this Old dog before you get bit. Shannon runs this site ethically as it should be. I'm also out but back to the original post I'm going to pattern some LB #6s. I think from what I've heard about them they work great after a little father/son time patterning.
So it's plenty ethical to waste some animals but not others? It's ethical to body shoot deer but not turkeys? It's fine to kill a mother coyote and let her young starve? (Several members told me this some time back). It's ethical to do anything that you agree with and unethical to do anything that you are personally against? I have nothing but respect for those that refuse to take nothing but head shots. I have nothing but respect for those who strive to use every ounce of meat on an animal. And I have absolute respect for anyone making sure they have quick kills. But I have a hard time respecting anyone who insists on bringing up ethics and pushing them as the law. A dead turkey is a dead turkey. Whether the head is full of shot or the breast, they are gone. The gobbler that I shot in the head 2 years ago isn't going to sire anymore young than the one I body shot 5 years ago. I got meat of of them both and it was used. I don't care if you refuse to body shoot one. But don't belittle me for not refusing to. If I get kicked off for not conforming to someone's ethical standards then so be it. I follow the laws and my own judgement. My idea of ethics might not suit you. That's fine, yours don't suit me! I've said it before, that's why we have laws to follow and not ethics!
Man this is crazy. Head shooting deer? No one is perfect n blowing off a jaw n watching em starve ain't so far off from the perfect shot. Pretty irresponsible as is body shooting birds. Many many each year are rolled w such chances n never recovered. Seems to make no sense to not take the most responsible shot possible. Least someone is eating it though but why not just shoot clay birds, shoot 3D. Farmboy your posts are normally good, I'm actually surprised
Quote from: Farmboy27 on August 24, 2016, 06:11:51 PM
So do you guys eat all the groundhogs, coyotes, crows, and coons you shoot? They are all made of meat ya know!
Hey barbecue raccoon is pretty darn tasty!
Never tried yote , don't know any who have . Or bugs I step on .
As far as eating crow , well will try leaving that to some others,lol
:morning:
Clark: I so enjoy reading your posts! Your experience and candor is much appreciated on the topic. Nice to know you are involved in this crazy love affair we know as turkey hunting!!! :camohat:
Quote from: lowoctane on August 25, 2016, 08:27:29 AM
:morning:
Clark: I so enjoy reading your posts! Your experience and candor is much appreciated on the topic. Nice to know you are involved in this crazy love affair we know as turkey hunting!!! :camohat:
Thank you for the kind words. I've been "addicted" to the sport of turkey hunting for many years and hope to be able to continue for a few more.
Thanks again,
Clark
The majority of turkeys I have killed have been inside 30yds. Shooting a gun that patterns well only if the turkeys are at a further distance doesn't serve the purpose for me the majority of the time. Have harvested allot of turkeys inside 15yds and some inside 10yds. I just aim where the feathers start on the neck and it is lights out. A gun that shoots good patterns from 20yds-40yds with some room for error has been the most productive set up for myself and the clients I have guided over the years. Seen allot of misses with guns that shoot super tight patterns at 20-25yds. Interesting, I have never considered patterns for myself too tight until Win LB came along.
Why bother body shooting a gobbler .....it defeats the purpose .....
Quote from: allaboutshooting on June 19, 2016, 09:33:45 PM
Quote from: Longshanks on June 19, 2016, 07:38:46 PM
Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and A large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.
At this point, I've shot several hundreds of WLB shells, from the 1st batch to the current loads. I've shot the 1 3/4 & 1 7/8 oz 3" loads of #6s extensively and the #4s & #5s to a lesser extent. I've also shot some of all 3 sizes of the 3.5" but far fewer than the 3" versions.
These shells were designed as "extended range" shells and most efforts to get them to shoot larger patterns at ranges under 40 yards can be exercises in frustration. The early loads are exceptionally tight, even at 40 yards, as witnessed by the last 2 still target competitions when some of the 1st WLB shells that were loaded were shot at these events.
Many times, at least with some of the later loads, thinking has to be changed to open them up some. If the resin slug is not fractured or fractured completely, the choke must serve as the secondary source of fracturing the slug to help open up the patterns. Otherwise, the only way it will fracture is air pressure after it's exited the muzzle.
If you rely upon the choke as a secondary source of fracturing the slug, it must do so physically with some type of restriction or wad stopper action. A tighter e.d. may produce a more open pattern but please note the emphasis on the word may. Again, it's really all about the whole internal geometry of the choke.
Since we tend to think that more open chokes produce more open patterns, this flies in the face of what we've done with other shells in the past and it does not always work.
One of the most asked questions to me over the last year or so, is something like "How can I get a more open pattern with WLB shell?" After firing case after case of them, the very best answer that I know how to give is what I've just said here. it was designed as a long range shell and the best way to get more open patterns would be to use another shell, Hevi-13 for example, if most of your shots are under 40 yards and if you have concerns about missing a turkey at those ranges. Otherwise, you could spend a lot of time, energy and money trying to accomplish something that is very difficult if not impossible to achieve.
Thanks,
Clark
07.26.16 Correction of the word "not" to the word "note" in para #4
Clark ,can you recommend some combos? What I have currently is a SBE 2 w/ 24"bbl. Final Strut choke tubes in .640" , .650" , .655", TruGlo SSX .643" , and Ind.Creek .660"...ammo= 3.5" magblends, Fed. HW 3.5" #7 shot. Have not shot the Long Beard yet but I plan on trying #4, & #5s....also I have shot the H-13 3.5" #7 shot and put 336 in a 10" circle.....yes,I know it's a fantastic pattern but my concern is the velocity....only moving @ 1090 fps. When I shot them at a new piece of particle board I was picking some of the pellets out that were just half way in the board....others on here say I shouldn't be concerned....BUT I AM!!!! Because I want to flatten and kill quickly!!!! Amyhow,any advice would be mighty helpful!!!! And ifn you wouldn't mind , send your response to my email please!!!! binkbenelli@gmail.com . Thanks so much!!!
Quote from: BINK McCARTY on October 01, 2016, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: allaboutshooting on June 19, 2016, 09:33:45 PM
Quote from: Longshanks on June 19, 2016, 07:38:46 PM
Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and A large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.
At this point, I've shot several hundreds of WLB shells, from the 1st batch to the current loads. I've shot the 1 3/4 & 1 7/8 oz 3" loads of #6s extensively and the #4s & #5s to a lesser extent. I've also shot some of all 3 sizes of the 3.5" but far fewer than the 3" versions.
These shells were designed as "extended range" shells and most efforts to get them to shoot larger patterns at ranges under 40 yards can be exercises in frustration. The early loads are exceptionally tight, even at 40 yards, as witnessed by the last 2 still target competitions when some of the 1st WLB shells that were loaded were shot at these events.
Many times, at least with some of the later loads, thinking has to be changed to open them up some. If the resin slug is not fractured or fractured completely, the choke must serve as the secondary source of fracturing the slug to help open up the patterns. Otherwise, the only way it will fracture is air pressure after it's exited the muzzle.
If you rely upon the choke as a secondary source of fracturing the slug, it must do so physically with some type of restriction or wad stopper action. A tighter e.d. may produce a more open pattern but please note the emphasis on the word may. Again, it's really all about the whole internal geometry of the choke.
Since we tend to think that more open chokes produce more open patterns, this flies in the face of what we've done with other shells in the past and it does not always work.
One of the most asked questions to me over the last year or so, is something like "How can I get a more open pattern with WLB shell?" After firing case after case of them, the very best answer that I know how to give is what I've just said here. it was designed as a long range shell and the best way to get more open patterns would be to use another shell, Hevi-13 for example, if most of your shots are under 40 yards and if you have concerns about missing a turkey at those ranges. Otherwise, you could spend a lot of time, energy and money trying to accomplish something that is very difficult if not impossible to achieve.
Thanks,
Clark
07.26.16 Correction of the word "not" to the word "note" in para #4
Clark ,can you recommend some combos? What I have currently is a SBE 2 w/ 24"bbl. Final Strut choke tubes in .640" , .650" , .655", TruGlo SSX .643" , and Ind.Creek .660"...ammo= 3.5" magblends, Fed. HW 3.5" #7 shot. Have not shot the Long Beard yet but I plan on trying #4, & #5s....also I have shot the H-13 3.5" #7 shot and put 336 in a 10" circle.....yes,I know it's a fantastic pattern but my concern is the velocity....only moving @ 1090 fps. When I shot them at a new piece of particle board I was picking some of the pellets out that were just half way in the board....others on here say I shouldn't be concerned....BUT I AM!!!! Because I want to flatten and kill quickly!!!! Amyhow,any advice would be mighty helpful!!!! And ifn you wouldn't mind , send your response to my email please!!!! binkbenelli@gmail.com . Thanks so much!!!
The past two hunting seasons I attempted to do the same thing. I was shooting 330's with Hevi 13 out of my main set up and thought I could find a suitable pattern with the Win LB and save money on shells. I shot Win LB's out of 5 guns with numerous chokes and nothing suited me better than the Hevi 13 6's and 7's patterns. The trauma on the turkey inside 40yds with Hevi 13 patterns that shoot from 250-330's is devastating. I say all that to say I wasted allot of time shooting HW 7's and Win LB's to find myself going right back to the Hevi 13 setups I was hunting with originally. Finding a gun and choke that will shoot Win LB's is easily done. I haven't found many setups that won't shoot them well. Softball patterns inside 20yds and nice patterns at 40 was the consistent result. If a tighter pattern inside 40yds is what you are looking for that would be what I found. They are lead shells as well so pushing the limit as far as distance I would not recommend. Clark has shot them more than any of us and can probably tell you his results with that gun and several of those chokes. Not trying to discourage you but I simply found that I was already hunting with the best setup for my needs with the Hevi 13. Good luck to you.
We all want 200+ With lead at 40 yards but we don't want what it takes to make it happen. Shoot the shells you want and bring your bird home. No need to bash shells because you don't like them. Pattern your gun and shoot what works for you!
Quote from: turkey buster on January 02, 2017, 09:44:47 PM
We all want 200+ With lead at 40 yards but we don't want what it takes to make it happen. Shoot the shells you want and bring your bird home. No need to bash shells because you don't like them. Pattern your gun and shoot what works for you!
Agreed, plus practice at closer and longer ranges to know exactly what to expect. I use mainly long beard but burn up a box prior to the season to be completely familiar with my load and gun.
We aren't bashing shells. Just giving you my experience with LB's and also what I have seen guiding. Called in turkeys many times inside 30yds to watch avid turkey hunters miss. I wish I had 5 dollars for every story I have heard in the last couple of years about folks missing with Win LB's. They are awesome shells for competition and shooting turkeys from 35-45 yds but definitely not the best set up out of my guns as the majority of turkey I harvest are well inside 40yds. More like inside 30yds.
Turkey hunter friend of mine told me one time that if you want to see how you do with your set up, sit motionless at the base of a tree for an hour or so, throw up and shoot a target twisted around and off hand. You will find out pretty quick how you do with a tight set up under hunting conditions. Practice off of a rest/vise at different yardages is great but shooting a turkey under hunting conditions is allot different.
I just wish they made longbeards in 7.5s that would be nasty
Quote from: BowBendr on June 19, 2016, 03:16:56 PM
At 20 and under, everything is tight.
Gods of Thunder
2015 Old Gobbler contest Champions
Bingo
The difference in my guns at 20 yds with LB's and XX's/ Hevi 13 is the difference between a baseball and a volleyball. Hunted with them and have seen allot of folks shooting them. The number of misses is like nothing I have ever seen or heard about. The best LB hunting pattern I came up with after allot of testing was the LB 5's and the Rem Xtra Full choke out of a Rem 870 with a 21" barrel. It was a better pattern than I have been able to generate out of any other 5 load without being overly tight at normal ranges.
Quote from: Longshanks on January 14, 2017, 07:06:48 AM
The difference in my guns at 20 yds with LB's and XX's/ Hevi 13 is the difference between a baseball and a volleyball. Hunted with them and have seen allot of folks shooting them. The number of misses is like nothing I have ever seen or heard about. The best LB hunting pattern I came up with after allot of testing was the LB 5's and the Rem Xtra Full choke out of a Rem 870 with a 21" barrel. It was a better pattern than I have been able to generate out of any other 5 load without being overly tight at normal ranges.
I find that the 3 inch LB 5's 1 7/8's is the optimal shell.
If you shooting LB's at close range like 15 - 20 yds you best pattern that gun/choke combo and know exactly where it hitting. Then when that shot presents itself, be 15 yds or your longest shot you would take, you know where to hold on that bird, and hope your body has not gone to sleep....and your aim is true. Most of time a dead bird if all the stars line up.