Win. LB patterns too tight????

[BINK McCARTY]

I keep hearing that Win. LB shells may pattern "TOO TIGHT" at 20yds. and under...well I'm pretty sure in my 25 or so years of turkey huntin' the patterns have ALWAYS been extremely tight at 20 & under....now granted the LB may be a little bit tighter than any other shell,but not by much. It seems quite an easy ordeal to overcome....just as I was taught and I still go by aim at the base of the neck where the body starts to widen....pretty easy to me....aim there and I don't care WHAT shell your shooting,he's goin' for a ride in the truck!!!!! Lets hear some in-put!!!! And please keep it tactful.

[eddie234]

My 20 yard pattern with the long beards is about the size of your fist. I'm not a veteran turkey hunter by any means but I've always shot my turkeys before they got too close.

[wvmntnhick]

Well, I'll agree that patterns at 20 yards with most guns will be tight based on choke configuration. Having said that, these aren't you're 25 year old lead loads. Out of my gun, prior to switching to TSS, the Winchester LB's were tight enough at 20 that it wouldn't have taken much at all to miss a bird. It was tighter than a baseball and in the heat of the moment, a guy that's used to aiming at the head may not think about going for the carunkles. Just a thought.

[BowBendr]

At 20 and under, everything is tight.


Gods of Thunder
2015 Old Gobbler contest Champions

[Farmboy27]

Probably gonna take some heat for this but oh well!  Most turkey guns and loads are dang tight under 20 yards. So I still use the instructions my uncle gave me 23 years ago. He told me to shoot him in the neck unless he's "right tight to ya". Then forget about the neck and put it on his beard. I'm not at all afraid to body shoot a bird that is "right tight"!  Ok, let me have it!

[Longshanks]

Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and a large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.

[TrackeySauresRex]

Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and A large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.

I may not be this^^^^But I'm close to it. I'm just not a fan of them. There is no room for error. And sometimes I make some errors. I don't like missing. JMO

[allaboutshooting]

Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and A large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.

At this point, I've shot several hundreds of WLB shells, from the 1st batch to the current loads. I've shot the 1 3/4 & 1 7/8 oz 3" loads of #6s extensively and the #4s & #5s to a lesser extent. I've also shot some of all 3 sizes of the 3.5" but far fewer than the 3" versions.

These shells were designed as "extended range" shells and most efforts to get them to shoot larger patterns at ranges under 40 yards can be exercises in frustration. The early loads are exceptionally tight, even at 40 yards, as witnessed by the last 2 still target competitions when some of the 1st WLB shells that were loaded were shot at these events.

Many times, at least with some of the later loads, thinking has to be changed to open them up some. If the resin slug is not fractured or fractured completely, the choke must serve as the secondary source of fracturing the slug to help open up the patterns. Otherwise, the only way it will fracture is air pressure after it's exited the muzzle.

If you rely upon the choke as a secondary source of fracturing the slug, it must do so physically with some type of restriction or wad stopper action. A tighter e.d. may produce a more open pattern but please note the emphasis on the word may. Again, it's really all about the whole internal geometry of the choke.

Since we tend to think that more open chokes produce more open patterns, this flies in the face of what we've done with other shells in the past and it does not always work.

One of the most asked questions to me over the last year or so, is something like "How can I get a more open pattern with WLB shell?" After firing case after case of them, the very best answer that I know how to give is what I've just said here. it was designed as a long range shell and the best way to get more open patterns would be to use another shell, Hevi-13 for example, if most of your shots are under 40 yards and if you have concerns about missing a turkey at those ranges. Otherwise, you could spend a lot of time, energy and money trying to accomplish something that is very difficult if not impossible to achieve.

Thanks,
Clark

07.26.16 Correction of the word "not" to the word "note" in para #4

[Longshanks]

Shoot some patterns with Win XX 3" 6's at 20 yds and Win LB's 3" 6's at 20 yds and post up the pics. Interested to see if anyone's results are different than mine. I've shot the LB's through 5 guns and different chokes and they are substantially tighter in the 15-20yd range than any other load. I put the entire pattern in a 8" circle several times at 40yds and A large number of patterns inside a 10" at 40. That's tight. That would just be out of my guns, other folks may have different results.

At this point, I've shot several hundreds of WLB shells, from the 1st batch to the current loads. I've shot the 1 3/4 & 1 7/8 oz 3" loads of #6s extensively and the #4s & #5s to a lesser extent. I've also shot some of all 3 sizes of the 3.5" but far fewer than the 3" versions.

These shells were designed as "extended range" shells and most efforts to get them to shoot larger patterns at ranges under 40 yards can be exercises in frustration. The early loads are exceptionally tight, even at 40 yards, as witnessed by the last 2 still target competitions when some of the 1st WLB shells that were loaded were shot at these events.

Many times, at least with some of the later loads, thinking has to be changed to open them up some. If the resin slug is not fractured or fractured completely, the choke must serve as the secondary source of fracturing the slug to help open up the patterns. Otherwise, the only way it will fracture is air pressure after it's exited the muzzle.

If you rely upon the choke as a secondary source of fracturing the slug, it must do so physically with some type of restriction or wad stopper action. A tighter e.d. may produce a more open pattern but please not the emphasis on the word may. Again, it's really all about the whole internal geometry of the choke.

Since we tend to think that more open chokes produce more open patterns, this flies in the face of what we've done with other shells in the past and it does not always work.

One of the most asked questions to me over the last year or so, is something like "How can I get a more open pattern with WLB shell?" After firing case after case of them, the very best answer that I know how to give is what I've just said here. it was designed as a long range shell and the best way to get more open patterns would be to use another shell, Hevi-13 for example, if most of your shots are under 40 yards and if you have concerns about missing a turkey at those ranges. Otherwise, you could spend a lot of time, energy and money trying to accomplish something that is very difficult if not impossible to achieve.

Thanks,
Clark

I agree..shooting Hevi 13 and Fed HW7's out of all of my turkey guns now due to the 20yd and 40yd consistent patterns that have some margin for error. Inside 40yds is all that I am looking for when comes to shooting at a turkey. The fun starts when the turkey gets inside 40yds and the odds of a clean kill go way up.

[blueridgegobbler]

I can take game loads and cut their heads off at 20. missing is just part of the game aim small miss small squeeze the trigger. Most misses come from flinch not too tight of a pattern its just a tough pill to swallow all the money in guns ammo and chokes and missing, but most people sight in out of lead sleds and sand bags unless you carry these sighting devices hunting sit down and sight in just like you hunt it will make a difference. when you miss targets you will learn to aim and squeeze not point and punch.

[allaboutshooting]

I agree..shooting Hevi 13 and Fed HW7's out of all of my turkey guns now due to the 20yd and 40yd consistent patterns that have some margin for error. Inside 40yds is all that I am looking for when comes to shooting at a turkey. The fun starts when the turkey gets inside 40yds and the odds of a clean kill go way up.

In the last few weeks, I've spent as much time as is possible at the range, with different shells, chokes and guns.The still target shooting season is in full swing and the World Championship shoot will be here before we know it. This shooting is all at 40 yards from the muzzle of the gun, no rest is allowed and we shoot from a seated position like we would when hunting turkeys. Our target is a 3" red circle and only the pellets within that circle that do not cut the outer border count.

With the introduction of the WLB shells, we've watched scored steadily climb and not by just a few pellets but by very many. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when we shot some of the first production shells recently (the NWTF had these stored and sent them out to shoot at 2 events) we saw record numbers at 2 events. One event was in KY and one was in SC, same days at roughly the same hours.

These are very tight shooting shells!

When I shoot them at 20, 25, 30 or 35 yards, regardless of the choke type, it's the norm to see very tight patterns. There are other shells that will produce much more "forgiving" patterns at these ranges.

I like those 25 yards shots at turkeys.

Thanks,
Clark

[Waynesworld23]

Probably gonna take some heat for this but oh well!  Most turkey guns and loads are dang tight under 20 yards. So I still use the instructions my uncle gave me 23 years ago. He told me to shoot him in the neck unless he's "right tight to ya". Then forget about the neck and put it on his beard. I'm not at all afraid to body shoot a bird that is "right tight"!  Ok, let me have it!

i agree with your teachings after missing a bird at 15 steps a few years ago and after talking to my dad about it he said when they are that close put the bead on his wing and body shoot him

[greentag]

if you  like to eat the turkey you shoot like i do,then shooting them in the wing or the beard at 15 or 20 yards with long beards would destroy every bit of the meat you tried so hard to get.i couldnt imigine shooting one like that,i never even  shoot one in full strut.its way to easy to cluck and get them to stick their head up and shoot them with a good shell you are confident in and have patterned your gun with.but to each their own,if you are thinking of doing this i think you should shoot some win long beards and see just how tight they are,out of my gun the hole they make at 15 and 20 yards look like you have shot a large sabbot about the size of a dip can,and thats with every choke i have tried.i may be like a dinosour,but i still shoot the old winchester supremes,they shoot a perfect killing pattern at any range out to 40 for me,i tried the longbeards one season and i think they are great for competition shooting,but for hunting its hard to beat the old supremes especially from 20 to 30 yards where the majority of turkeys are shot.

[Longshanks]

Shooting lead loads I find the best hunting loads to be Win XX, Super-X, and HV. Most consistent results year after year and shoot great patterns to 40yds after some experimenting with chokes. 140's-160's in a 10 @ 40 are fantastic patterns in the turkey woods.

[allaboutshooting]

I can remember times when I've had turkeys "surprise" me by showing up much closer that I thought they were. I've had them come in from a side I was not expecting and be really close, too close for a shot and even too close to move without being seen.

I learned, over the years that I did not have to take a shot at turkey just because he was there. As a hunter, I always have the option to not take a shot as much as I have the option to take a shot. I've often said "If he's out of range, he has another day and so do you."
That can equally apply to a turkey that's too close. You can always let him walk. Maybe he'll give you a shot at range at which you're more comfortable, maybe he won't but either way, you as a hunter always have the choice or option not to shoot as much as you have the option or choice to shoot.

We all enjoy the sport of turkey hunting. It's the thrill of being outdoors, hearing the gobble, calling in a beautiful bird and if conditions are right, taking the shot to cleanly kill him and take him home. If the conditions are not right to take the shot, we've still had the wonderful opportunity to be in the great outdoors and see a beautiful bird. The choice is always ours.

By spending time at the range, we can determine not only how the shells shoot but how we shoot them. Range time is really just another part of the hunting experience. Tight shooting shells have their place but other shells that are more forgiving do as well.

Thanks,
Clark