Turkey hunting forum for turkey hunting tips

When asked by someone not familiar with TSS how do explain the concept? Although this example is greatly exaggerated the point gets made. I ask the person if they would rather get hit in the head with a speeding golf ball or speeding ping pong ball.

Tungsten is a far denser metal than lead, therefore a piece of tungsten that is much smaller than lead is the same weight. Meaning you can shoot something smaller, that weighs the same. The smaller the shot coming out has less wind resistance causing it to typically not slow down as fast meaning it should be able shoot further with a tighter grouping.

To add to the above, if it weighs the same and has a smaller diameter and travels at the same speed, it should get better penetration and deform less. I like the ping pong/golf ball comparison, lol. Z

I once heard the TSS #9s vs #5 Lead as a sharp pencil vs a dull pencil in terms of penetration. Both will stab ya just one does a better job

I'd explain it's a more (much more) expensive option than lead, hevi-shot, heavyweight, nickel, etc. TSS does perform very well with the right gun/choke set-up, however there are cheaper options that will more than cover you out to 40 yards if budget is a concern. I would also mention that it may affect the barrels of older firearms, when in doubt consult a gunsmith or manufacturer for advice. Great product, but you can still be very successful without it. Whatever one chooses, enjoy the hunt!

For me it is just a better option that allows me to use a .410 and still kill turkeys at a normal ethical range.  After having cataract surgery in both eyes then getting a stent in my carotid I became very recoil conscious.  TSS and a .410 keeps me in the game.  It's very expensive but for me worth every penny.

Quote from: joey46 on April 02, 2024, 06:47:50 AM
For me it is just a better option that allows me to use a .410 and still kill turkeys at a normal ethical range.  After having cataract surgery in both eyes then getting a stent in my carotid I became very recoil conscious.  TSS and a .410 keeps me in the game.  It's very expensive but for me worth every penny.

What Joey said. Mine was knee, shoulder surgery and 2 herniated discs in my back. I came down to a 28 with 1 1/4 TSS #9 and it gives me a payload that is devastating and the recoil and gun is light enough for me. Lighter is better as you get older, lol. Z

TSS main advantage is how many pellets you can put on target. I was discussing this topic with a buddy that said he would rather have less, larger #4 pellets hit a bird than the smaller tss. That's not how a shot shell works. Shot shells kill by putting as many pellets as possible in the vitals has nothing to do with wound channel or hole size. Will 1 pellet kill a turkey absolutely, but putting 70 in the vitals will do it much more efficiently.

I tell all my buddies the reason i use TSS is because all my friends on OLD Gobbler convinced me to start using TSS ... IT JUST WORKS

12 gauge winchester long beard xr, 3.5" 2oz load of 5 shot = 340 pellets

20 gauge apex tss, 3" 1 5/8 oz load of 9 shot = 590 pellets

Tss allows you to carry a lighter, smaller gun with more manageable recoil with considerably more pellets that will hit just as hard and penetrate deeper.

Quote from: zelmo1 on April 02, 2024, 06:14:05 AM
To add to the above, if it weighs the same and has a smaller diameter and travels at the same speed, it should get better penetration and deform less. I like the ping pong/golf ball comparison, lol. Z

There is a big misconception that it weighs the same, but it's not even close.
A lead #5 weighs about 250% more than the TSS #9 it gets compared to. The ping pong ball to golf ball is a poor example and grossly exaggerated. A much closer comparison would be a 12" softball compared to a baseball in terms of density. You don't want to get hit in the head at 100mph by either of them or you're going for a nap.
The softball weighs about twice as much, but the larger surface area is going to distribute the force over a larger impact zone.

Since I just sold my TK2000 it is no longer a concern but I was always skeptical when some were substituting TSS with an equal volume measure of lead in a Knight shot cup..  Never got any real straight answer to this.  The pressure difference in this much heavier TSS load had to have been there. 

Lead has always worked for me and I don't have to worry about unintentionaly killing a human hiding at 100 yards downrange.

I do use lead if i'm hunting with one of my 12 gauges or older shotguns like my side x sides and old A5 / 20 gauge...

I didnt compare a #5 lead pellet to a #9 TSS. The TSS is approximately 58% higher in density. A #5 lead pellet weighs .0058 ounces as a #9 TSS is .0028, closer to 2/1. I have done testing on 3.5" 2 ounce longbeards vs 1.25 ounce #9 in my 28 gauge and both are devastating. This is my point, I have no use for the extra recoil and weight. Both will kill efficiently if you are responsible. To each their own. I'm sticking to my 28 and I choose the TSS 1.25 ounces of #9(450ish pellets) rather than .75 ounces of #5 lead( 130ish pellets). Z

One thing I noticed is most of the TSS loads from the various makers have bigger ounce payloads, but the speed is lower. I realize the 100-200 FPS doesn't seem like much, but I would think there is some difference. Take Federal Heavyweight Loads. Heavyweight shot is 15 G/CC, TSS is 18 G/CC. The Federal Loads travel 1300 FPS, versus 1150-1190 in most TSS loads. I wonder if there is a trade-off with higher payloads, versus speed? I know it all depends on the pattern results. I've tested and use both and find the patterns to perform similar to each other. Very few Gobblers even flop when hit with Heavyweight #7's....just wanted to share some thoughts here....

Before switching to the .410 often used what was called a reduced recoil load in my 870 12 ga.  Really didn't think it was that reduced.  When someone comes out with an actual lead .410 load to kill a turkey sized bird let me know.  They won't so TSS is the way to go if using a smaller ga turkey killer. Killing an innocent bystander at 100 yards isn't really a concern.  I'll take that chance.

Quote from: joey46 on April 02, 2024, 11:49:12 AM
Before switching to the .410 often used what was called a reduced recoil load in my 870 12 ga.  Really didn't think it was that reduced.  When someone comes out with an actual lead .410 load to kill a turkey sized bird let me know.  They won't so TSS is the way to go if using a smaller ga turkey killer. Killing an innocent bystander at 100 yards isn't really a concern.  I'll take that chance.

TSS sure did open up much better efficiency's and pay loads for the smaller gauge options...

Until some nitwit such as old time YouTube star such as Roland Martin claims his .410 is good to 50 yards.  Some just want to make me scream.  The big birds deserve better.

I handload all of my TSS, every gauge except for the 10 gauge.
One thing that I have realized, your either "Fer it, or aginst it". One thing for certain, me you or nobody going to convince some folks otherwise. The dangest thing is that I would bet most of them ain't never tried it. Going to reject/put down on "new technology" but they ain't using a sharp rock on the end of a stick, or for that matter black powder.
I don't care what you choose to use as long as it WORKS. I am not going to put down on anyone because of the shot they choose. For some reason it is not a two way street.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

The lethality of TSS is not really due to it's greater density.  It is due to the fact that it's greater density allows the pellets to maintain enough downrange energy to penetrate and kill a gobbler in the vital areas.  Newton's First - an object in motion tends to remain in motion and Newton's Second - Force = mass x acceleration. 

The density of lead is fine and dandy to kill a gobbler very dead.  The real difference is what range does the pattern break down vs lethality of the pellet.  The #9 TSS is NOT more deadly than the #5 lead, the greater number of pellets allow an effective killing pattern at better ranges. 

My favorite example is real world Karamojo Bell - while other were hunting elephants with hand cannons (2-4 gauge Muzzleloaders, 577 Express), he was killing by the score with a 303 Enfield.  But he did so with proper bullet placement in the brain due to his knowledge and skill.  TSS due to it's superior patterning because of the smaller pellet size lets you have better odds of multiple smaller killing pellets than fewer larger killing pellets (of say, lead #5). 

I have never hunted with TSS except in a 410.  I use Federal Heavyweight in 20.  I used lead or the old Remington Hevi Shot in 12.

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 12:21:20 PM
I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

Quote from: g8rvet on April 02, 2024, 01:01:02 PM
The lethality of TSS is not really due to it's greater density.  It is due to the fact that it's greater density allows the pellets to maintain enough downrange energy to penetrate and kill a gobbler in the vital areas.  Newton's First - an object in motion tends to remain in motion and Newton's Second - Force = mass x acceleration. 

It is about density. Density, hardness of the shot and 2.5X less surface area compared to #5 lead. Density sitting on the table means nothing, but density put into motion is where you'll see results.

Looking at Newton's 1st law of inertia, the #5 lead wins by a landslide because of the increased mass (minimal air resistance difference)
Looking at Newton's 2nd law, again the #5 lead wins because it has more than double the mass with the same acceleration or more.

Lead 5s hit with twice the amount of energy, but TSS 9s are able to penetrate just as well because of hardness and a lower coefficient of friction on the target.

Basically TSS allows more pellets to hit but takes more hits to kill.

Lead allows for less pellets to hit but takes far fewer hits to kill.

Big thing is # of pellets.
Golf ball/ ping pong ball poor analogy.

Quote from: dublelung on April 02, 2024, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 12:21:20 PM
I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 02, 2024, 01:26:02 PM
Basically TSS allows more pellets to hit but takes more hits to kill.

Lead allows for less pellets to hit but takes far fewer hits to kill.

Well, I'm compelled to do this again.
That is false. Each little #9TSS kills just as cleanly as each heavier & bigger lead #5.....and there is over twice as many of them per a given mass.
Maybe this thread should have be titled the misconceptions between lead and TSS?

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: dublelung on April 02, 2024, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 12:21:20 PM
I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

Quote from: Number17 on April 02, 2024, 02:24:45 PM

Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 02, 2024, 01:26:02 PM
Basically TSS allows more pellets to hit but takes more hits to kill.

Lead allows for less pellets to hit but takes far fewer hits to kill.

Well, I'm compelled to do this again.
That is false. Each little #9TSS kills just as cleanly as each heavier & bigger lead #5.....and there is over twice as many of them per a given mass.
Maybe this thread should have be titled the misconceptions between lead and TSS?

I agree with the rebuttal except in my experiences with #9 TSS it is more equal in real world killing performance to #4 lead rather than #5 lead. Before going to the Fed HVWT #7 or TSS #9 loads in a 20ga. I was primarily a #4 CP lead hunter.

Before repeating the TSS claims you might want to actually look at the factual numbers.

The often quoted "TSS #9 is the same weight as a lead 4 or 5 is DEAD WRONG. TSS # 9 is no where close to the same weight as a lead #5 let alone a lead #4.

Kinetic energy another TSS soap box. KE is mass times velocity squared. In other words a heavier object going faster has more KE period. Look at the numbers again. Most lead Turkey loads have faster velocities than the TSS loads. So again a lead # 5 traveling faster will have more KE, more bone breaking power. Even if the TSS load is the exact same velocity as the lead load the TSS will still have less KE because it's lighter.

The number one benefit I see in TSS is the dense patterns it usually gives because of the small shot size.
For TSS to match a lead 4 or 5 you'd have to use TSS 7s or even 6s which would then negate the dense patterns of the smaller shot ie. #9s.

If you start comparing Heavy shot the discrepancy increases in favor of the heavier shot.

Why has this TSS #9 vs lead #5 fairy tale continually being propagated on various forums, podcasts, even in print? Good question. My guess is the ones selling and hyping TSS know the truth but also know the average Joe doesn't understand physics or care to, and if you repeat the same thing over enough most will believe it and swear it's gospel.

The numbers of weight per pellet, velocities etc. are easily obtained. Look for yourself

Once again I feel compelled to set the record straight.

TSS does kill but to be clear it takes more pellet hits to get the job done compared to lead shot sizes used in turkey hunting.

A TSS 9 may penetrate as deep as a lead 5 but it can never hit with near the energy pellet for pellet.
Furthermore,  lead being softer deforms and transfers its energy much better than harder TSS.

I don't care what ppl shoot. But if the topic is explaining the concept of TSS I'll stick with facts over fairy tales every time.

Quote from: Jbird22 on April 02, 2024, 02:27:07 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: dublelung on April 02, 2024, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 12:21:20 PM
I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 03:54:35 PM

Quote from: Jbird22 on April 02, 2024, 02:27:07 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: dublelung on April 02, 2024, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 12:21:20 PM
I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

Surprised to hear that. Those loads should have been devastating at those ranges.

Quote from: bowbird87 on April 02, 2024, 08:05:35 AM
Shot shells kill by putting as many pellets as possible in the vitals has nothing to do with wound channel or hole size. Will 1 pellet kill a turkey absolutely, but putting 70 in the vitals will do it much more efficiently.

I do not think that is quite accurate?

A single #1 steel pellet traveling all the way through a bird, will do more tissue damage than a single #9 TSS pellet traveling all the way through the bird.

Larger wound channels have a greater chance of doing tissue damage than smaller wound channels.  Multiple smaller wound channels have a higher chance of causing tissue damage to vitals than a single larger wound channel (which is what I believe your point is).

We are not shooting #14 TSS cause at some point the pellets become too small to accomplish what we are hoping.  You have to cause enough tissue damage to vital organs for a load to be efficient.

While a turkey is relatively large compared to other birds hunted, we are shooting a smaller target.  We do not shoot at the body of a turkey, we shoot at the head...  We need pellets that are large enough to damage/break vertebrae to be lethal, but small enough to put a lot of pellets in the area (in order to hit).

The hardness and increased density both lead to tighter patterns (and less fliers) as well as increased down-range energy...  This means that a smaller pellet of higher density will travel further than a large pellet of lesser density...  But...  a #4 TSS pellet will still travel further than a #9 TSS pellet.

Quote from: Marc on April 02, 2024, 04:30:36 PM

Quote from: bowbird87 on April 02, 2024, 08:05:35 AM
Shot shells kill by putting as many pellets as possible in the vitals has nothing to do with wound channel or hole size. Will 1 pellet kill a turkey absolutely, but putting 70 in the vitals will do it much more efficiently.

I do not think that is quite accurate?

A single #1 steel pellet traveling all the way through a bird, will do more tissue damage than a single #9 TSS pellet traveling all the way through the bird.

It's not a fair comparison to measure tss vs lead damage on a 1 to 1 basis. Most pattern testing I've done on a Turkey target (#9 tss vs 5 and 6 lead mainly longbeard xr) usually at least 2.5 to 1 often higher in the number of strikes in the vitals. So yes 1 to 1 #5 creates more damage. In the real world 9s win in damage by putting 2-3x the pellets in the vitals.

Larger wound channels have a greater chance of doing tissue damage than smaller wound channels.  Multiple smaller wound channels have a higher chance of causing tissue damage to vitals than a single larger wound channel (which is what I believe your point is).

We are not shooting #14 TSS cause at some point the pellets become too small to accomplish what we are hoping.  You have to cause enough tissue damage to vital organs for a load to be efficient.

While a turkey is relatively large compared to other birds hunted, we are shooting a smaller target.  We do not shoot at the body of a turkey, we shoot at the head...  We need pellets that are large enough to damage/break vertebrae to be lethal, but small enough to put a lot of pellets in the area (in order to hit).

The hardness and increased density both lead to tighter patterns (and less fliers) as well as increased down-range energy...  This means that a smaller pellet of higher density will travel further than a large pellet of lesser density...  But...  a #4 TSS pellet will still travel further than a #9 TSS pellet.

I'm not a very scientific guy. This subject has been beat to death. So I use Apex 3lnch #8 in my Mossberg sa 2o because I'm old and the firearm is light. If i want to go old school In my Mossberg 835 I use #5 lb or Fed 4,5 or 6 lead.. Works for me. Good day

Way too much info since I don't have an advanced degree from MIT.  Bottom line is if you are using one of the smaller guns, especially the .410, use TSS.  The big birds deserve a clean ethical kill.  Everytime I see some internet clown talking about a 60 yard pattern my blood boils. :o

Quote from: Jbird22 on April 02, 2024, 04:18:17 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 03:54:35 PM

Quote from: Jbird22 on April 02, 2024, 02:27:07 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: dublelung on April 02, 2024, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 12:21:20 PM
I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

Surprised to hear that. Those loads should have been devastating at those ranges.

They are on paper, so I know I'm not hitting them with the core. I just don't know enough about tss to say one way or another.

 Wow, some guys have went to great lengths to show their ignorance.

If you don't want to shoot TSS, Don't. It is superior to Lead!

Lots of people here stuck on KE. Using a  published muzzle velocity.... A deformed, soft, lead pellet loses velocity quickly. The deformed pellet also does not pattern as well as a hard round pellet.

Your formulas are not applicable past the end of the barrel.

 Forget your numbers for a bit. Just a bit.

Lead is soft. Tungsten is hard. If this is in doubt give both the bite test. Use an equal size sample.

Now, we have an idea of the media we are working with. Let's talk about what happens. The pulling of the trigger causes an explosion in your gun barrel. This explosion is VERY violent! Upon detonation of the powder an enormous amount of pressure is put on the pellets. Ok, numbers guys, what's lead running at, what's TSS running at? Pressure...

This explosion/pressure deforms the soft pellet more so than the harder pellet, plus the trip down the tube beating into each other and exiting the tube we have designed to push them together "tighter" all add to the deforming of the projectile. The harder the projectile the less deformation will occur.
The deformed pellet DOES not fly as true. The deformed pellet WILL lose velocity at a faster rate than the pellet that is true. A deformed pellet rips and grabs and will not penetrate as well as the true pellet.This is why your formulas are not accurate.
Let's consider a two once load of #6 lead and #9 TSS, gauge doesn't matter here. 2oz is 2oz, TSS has so many more projectiles its not even funny. Projectiles that are not deformed, that are flying true. TSS out preforms lead for several reasons.

The Long beards are and have been the best lead shell ever produced to produce an excellent pattern that were lead. They controlled the deforming of the projectiles before exiting the barrel. It's that simple!

 BTW, pressure is set by industry standards, for an "insured/bonded" ammunition manufacturer I would "Guess" the pressure is the same Lead compared to TSS. It is designed to protect the user and firearm. Pressure limits are set to take into account legacy firearms still in use.

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 06:59:03 PM

Quote from: Jbird22 on April 02, 2024, 04:18:17 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 03:54:35 PM

Quote from: Jbird22 on April 02, 2024, 02:27:07 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: dublelung on April 02, 2024, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 12:21:20 PM
I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

Surprised to hear that. Those loads should have been devastating at those ranges.

They are on paper, so I know I'm not hitting them with the core. I just don't know enough about tss to say one way or another.

I don't know what your issue could be in all honesty. I've been shooting TSS handloads since 2017 and they have always got the job done when I did mine. All but 1 kill have been with 20 ga #9's. The 1 that wasn't was with 12 ga #8's.

Lead is soft as lead. Copper plated lead is soft as copper......which is much harder than lead. Almost all lead turkey loads are copper plated lead and are not nearly as deformed as the above post would like you to believe. Do the tooth test on a copper plated 5 and your teeth won't know the difference between that and tungsten. A cracked tooth will be the result for both.

Shotgun pellets don't kill turkeys because of energy transfer. They kill by breaking bones, penetrating deeply and shutting down the central nervous system. I'd rather the pellets go in and out, doing their job with transferring the least amount of energy.

LaLongbeard had everything right until he stated those tiny 9s aren't comparable to copper plated lead 4 or 5 sizes larger. Killing turkeys is all about penetration and breaking bones to shut down the CNS. The 9 to 5 comparison has been tested and proven many different ways. It is indeed an accurate comparison. The hype is real. The hype is factual. It does what they claim.

It's like throwing golf balls instead of tennis balls.

After somewhere between 50-60 dead turkeys from #9 tss all i can say is.it works as advertised.  Imho the naysayers wouldn't naysay if it didn't cost what it does. 

Internet. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240403/78e29bb6db7cca2e0a881c6ff2624956.jpg)

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Yall got my head hurting as bad as a gobbler shot with tss #9s

The big ammo companies , or any ammo company for the fact have figured out they can make more money selling one box of tss , than I could speculate 5 to 10 boxes of lead loads ....hence why that's about all they want to sell you these days ..

It shoots tight and hits hard , that's why hunters like it

It makes plenty of money,  and sells fast that's why ammo companies like it

A golf ball is 735% denser than a tennis ball
TSS shot is 59% denser than lead.
TSS is 129% denser than steel
TSS is 148% denser that tin

Comparing a golf ball to a tennis ball is like comparing TSS to Salt.........about a 750% difference.

Quote from: Number17 on April 02, 2024, 09:36:55 PM


LaLongbeard had everything right until he stated those tiny 9s aren't comparable to copper plated lead 4 or 5 sizes larger. Killing turkeys is all about penetration and breaking bones to shut down the CNS. The 9 to 5 comparison has been tested and proven many different ways. It is indeed an accurate comparison. The hype is real. The hype is factual. It does what they claim.

In what way has the TSS#9 vs lead #5 been proven?

I've seen quite a few Gobblers killed with TSS. None had the same bone breakage as lead #5s (the load I've killed most of my Gobblers with). The TSS kills  I've seen had a lot of tiny holes thru the bird not much bone or wing or leg breakage. That's on real turkeys not paper. Weight and speed is what breaks bones. A plain uncoated lead pellet has plenty of hardness  to break a bone hardness of TSS does not add to bone breakage, the shot needs only to be harder than bone which it is.
As mentioned the deformation of copper plated shot is being WAY over exaggerated. If you've ever killed any turkeys with copper plated lead you've no doubt found at least a couple pellets in a Turkey, they are as round and undeformed as any TSS shot.

I guess.... at least, the TSS lovers have dialed back some of the crazy claims they were hyping couple years back. Especially the ones about TSS weight per pellet. I see now they've moved to pellet hardness lol. Maybe only a lateral move but something I guess.

TSS has been around long enough now that there are probably a lot of hunters that have used nothing else and truly believe nothing else works? I've killed over a hundred Gobblers without TSS I know better.

It is not about weight it is about density.  No right person can claim a 9 pellet does more damage than a 5 pellet at ethical ranges.   What they can claim is due to the higher density of TSS it will retain down range energy longer than 9 lead and will therefore have more pellets on target than 5s.  Killing of turkeys is not about transfer of energy or knockdown power.  It is about penetration of vitals.   I did the math once and the elephant example I gave earlier holds up with the 303.  It ain't the knockdown it is the penetration.   The swarm of small highly penetrating 9s kills at effective ranges of 5s.  That is the only real comparison.  With that being said if I hunted a 12 I would not use TSS.  Not necessary. 


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Lalongbeard,
You can google and youtube to your heart's desire to SEE the penetration difference in penetration tests from gel to metal. The results are undeniable.
I save the wingbones from my gobblers so I see every single one of them. I've killed a pile of gobblers and I've only ever found 1 pellet had broken a wingbone.....and that was a #9.5 tss a couple of years ago on the opposite side I shot the bird on.

I agree the exaggerations and fabrications about TSS have been retold for many years, but the facts remain that it does indeed penetrate through most medium just the same as or better than a lead #5 when launched at the same velocity. So the same performance with double the amount of hits on target. The winner is clear.
And I've never heard another hunter anywhere, ever say that lead doesn't work. That statement is as ridiculous as some of the TSS exaggerations. Of course it works......just not as good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6AJz7z8NnU&ab_channel=NorthwestSpurChasers

Quote from: g8rvet on April 03, 2024, 06:46:11 AM
  What they can claim is due to the higher density of TSS it will retain down range energy longer than 9 lead and will therefore have more pellets on target than 5s. 

Retaining downrange energy more efficiently does not translate into more pellets on target. That's an impossible conclusion....like trying to smell the color 9.

Let's try this for a scenario. If someone was shooting at you from say...40-50 yards. Both guns equal and shooting the exact same pattern. Would you rather have 20 pellets coming at you or 60? Either one is going to penetrate from that distance! I think most of us would take our chances with just 20 and hope half of them go wide. TSS is popular because of more pellets down range, less open spaces on target, means less chances of misses. Which is an all around good thing for ethical hunting. Another thing to think about is...when will they outlaw lead? It will happen at some point, and then what's the options?

Quote from: jhoward11 on April 03, 2024, 11:54:21 AM
Let's try this for a scenario. If someone was shooting at you from say...40-50 yards. Both guns equal and shooting the exact same pattern. Would you rather have 20 pellets coming at you or 60? Either one is going to penetrate from that distance! I think most of us would take our chances with just 20 and hope half of them go wide. TSS is popular because of more pellets down range, less open spaces on target, means less chances of misses. Which is an all around good thing for ethical hunting. Another thing to think about is...when will they outlaw lead? It will happen at some point, and then what's the options?

I wish they would bring back the Old Red shell Active Turkey Penetrator loads. 3 inch shell, 2 1/4 ounce of Nickel Plated Shot. These shells patterned unreal. The knocked turkeys over. All good things get discontinued unfortunately.....I only have 4 left......

Quote from: silvestris on April 02, 2024, 10:51:51 AM
Lead has always worked for me and I don't have to worry about unintentionaly killing a human hiding at 100 yards downrange.

Always a negative comment. If nothing else, you're consistent.

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Quote from: Tom007 on April 03, 2024, 01:02:30 PM

Quote from: jhoward11 on April 03, 2024, 11:54:21 AM
Let's try this for a scenario. If someone was shooting at you from say...40-50 yards. Both guns equal and shooting the exact same pattern. Would you rather have 20 pellets coming at you or 60? Either one is going to penetrate from that distance! I think most of us would take our chances with just 20 and hope half of them go wide. TSS is popular because of more pellets down range, less open spaces on target, means less chances of misses. Which is an all around good thing for ethical hunting. Another thing to think about is...when will they outlaw lead? It will happen at some point, and then what's the options?

I wish they would bring back the Old Red shell Active Turkey Penetrator loads. 3 inch shell, 2 1/4 ounce of Nickel Plated Shot. These shells patterned unreal. The knocked turkeys over. All good things get discontinued unfortunately.....I only have 4 left......

I mentioned those in a different thread the other day. Those were my absolute favorites. I shot the #6's. Wasn't sure if anyone remembered them. The were turkey killers for sure.

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 03, 2024, 01:54:13 PM

Quote from: Tom007 on April 03, 2024, 01:02:30 PM

Quote from: jhoward11 on April 03, 2024, 11:54:21 AM
Let's try this for a scenario. If someone was shooting at you from say...40-50 yards. Both guns equal and shooting the exact same pattern. Would you rather have 20 pellets coming at you or 60? Either one is going to penetrate from that distance! I think most of us would take our chances with just 20 and hope half of them go wide. TSS is popular because of more pellets down range, less open spaces on target, means less chances of misses. Which is an all around good thing for ethical hunting. Another thing to think about is...when will they outlaw lead? It will happen at some point, and then what's the options?

I wish they would bring back the Old Red shell Active Turkey Penetrator loads. 3 inch shell, 2 1/4 ounce of Nickel Plated Shot. These shells patterned unreal. The knocked turkeys over. All good things get discontinued unfortunately.....I only have 4 left......

I mentioned those in a different thread the other day. Those were my absolute favorites. I shot the #6's. Wasn't sure if anyone remembered them. The were turkey killers for sure.

Amen my friend. The wad they used looked like a Mini Rocket ship.....

Quote from: Tom007 on April 03, 2024, 01:02:30 PM

Quote from: jhoward11 on April 03, 2024, 11:54:21 AM
Let's try this for a scenario. If someone was shooting at you from say...40-50 yards. Both guns equal and shooting the exact same pattern. Would you rather have 20 pellets coming at you or 60? Either one is going to penetrate from that distance! I think most of us would take our chances with just 20 and hope half of them go wide. TSS is popular because of more pellets down range, less open spaces on target, means less chances of misses. Which is an all around good thing for ethical hunting. Another thing to think about is...when will they outlaw lead? It will happen at some point, and then what's the options?

I wish they would bring back the Old Red shell Active Turkey Penetrator loads. 3 inch shell, 2 1/4 ounce of Nickel Plated Shot. These shells patterned unreal. The knocked turkeys over. All good things get discontinued unfortunately.....I only have 4 left......

I have a full box of 25 of these in 16 ga. and i also have a box of 10 of these in 12 ga . turkey loads

Quote from: Greg Massey on April 03, 2024, 04:22:08 PM

Quote from: Tom007 on April 03, 2024, 01:02:30 PM

Quote from: jhoward11 on April 03, 2024, 11:54:21 AM
Let's try this for a scenario. If someone was shooting at you from say...40-50 yards. Both guns equal and shooting the exact same pattern. Would you rather have 20 pellets coming at you or 60? Either one is going to penetrate from that distance! I think most of us would take our chances with just 20 and hope half of them go wide. TSS is popular because of more pellets down range, less open spaces on target, means less chances of misses. Which is an all around good thing for ethical hunting. Another thing to think about is...when will they outlaw lead? It will happen at some point, and then what's the options?

I wish they would bring back the Old Red shell Active Turkey Penetrator loads. 3 inch shell, 2 1/4 ounce of Nickel Plated Shot. These shells patterned unreal. The knocked turkeys over. All good things get discontinued unfortunately.....I only have 4 left......

I have a full box of 25 of these in 16 ga. and i also have a box of 10 of these in 12 ga . turkey loads

They were unreal, the best from years ago.......

Everyone keeps saying naysayers . But it's funny I don't hear anyone saying TSS doesn't work. I guess when you stick to real facts instead of fairy tales you're a naysayer.

It does come down to money.  The ammo manufacturers make much more money off TSS that's how you explain the concept.   
When people purchase TSS they want to believe that they're justified in spending that much money on shells. They want to believe it weighs as much as lead #5 or hits as hard as a lead 5.  They don't want to hear about energy transfer or bigger, heavier pellets doing more damage, breaking turkeys down .  Nobody in their right mind wants to pay 10 to 12 dollars a round and believe a 2 dollar lead round could do the same job.  It's marketing at work here with the ammo companies and the long range shots on social media etc. 

It's like the guy that drops 1000 bucks on new designer cano. Marketing..  He don't want to hear that he don't need Camo or that WW 2, Vietnam fatigues are just as effective.  People like to justify in their mind the money they spend.

Makes sub gauge shotguns as lethal if not more than a 12 gauge.

This is a hilarious post. Whether it's about TSS, blinds, decoys, reaping, fanning, killing a gobbler you didn't call in, shooting a jake, etc, the holier than thou's always criticize. And they always state that they're ethical, insinuating that anyone who doesn't hunt exactly like them is therefore unethical. That's why I avoid posts like this.

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Not sure being man enough is the right description for somebody who chooses to carry around more weight than necessary.

Quote from: Number17 on April 03, 2024, 07:13:05 AM

Quote from: g8rvet on April 03, 2024, 06:46:11 AM
  What they can claim is due to the higher density of TSS it will retain down range energy longer than 9 lead and will therefore have more pellets on target than 5s. 

Retaining downrange energy more efficiently does not translate into more pellets on target. That's an impossible conclusion....like trying to smell the color 9.

More pellets equal more pellets. Because they have increased density they are lethal. 

In other words, the reason the patterns hold together is there are more of them (vs #5 lead) and due to the increased density (vs lead 9), they can kill.  It will pattern like # 9 lead at the same distances (pretty much) but due solely to the increased density they retain downrange energy, unlike lead, so the #9 TSS can actually kill a bird. My conclusion is exactly correct.  Your understanding is not.  Sorry, I jumped a few steps, but thought the points were obvious.  I explained it better so you can understand and stop trying to smell numbers.

Are you arguing just to argue?  Or do I need to explain the obvious to you?

This has been enlightening, I didn't know that there were still "Lead is superior" people still around.   I guess they are probably members of the flat earth and birds aren't real clubs. 

Quote from: CALLM2U on April 04, 2024, 11:53:55 AM
This has been enlightening, I didn't know that there were still "Lead is superior" people still around.   I guess they are probably members of the flat earth and birds aren't real clubs.

I don't really think anyone is saying lead is superior so much as they are saying it is good enough (mostly in 12 gauge) for ethical shot distance. It is NOT superior based on ballistics, I just think they are saying inside 40, lead has killed a ton of birds.

I think William from Sumtoy says to let him know "How dead do you want him" when working up patterns.

Quote from: g8rvet on April 04, 2024, 11:56:39 AM

Quote from: CALLM2U on April 04, 2024, 11:53:55 AM
This has been enlightening, I didn't know that there were still "Lead is superior" people still around.   I guess they are probably members of the flat earth and birds aren't real clubs.

I don't really think anyone is saying lead is superior so much as they are saying it is good enough (mostly in 12 gauge) for ethical shot distance. It is NOT superior based on ballistics, I just think they are saying inside 40, lead has killed a ton of birds.

I think William from Sumtoy says to let him know "How dead do you want him" when working up patterns.

Granted I haven't read all of the thread, but there are definitely people talking about loosing more birds with TSS and lead hitting harder.   I don't care to argue the point because I just find this whole thing funny, but there are for sure people who believe it is superior.

Quote from: Old Swamper on April 04, 2024, 09:46:17 AM
Real easy for me to explain. Most ALL who shoot it, including most who have posted on this thread, despite what they may claim, are doing so for the sole purpose of "attempting" to kill turkeys at 50+yards. I shoot 12ga lead, because I am still man enough to tote around a 7lb gun. I am an ethical turkey hunter and will keep my shots within 40 steps.

And wearing blue jeans and walked to school up hill both ways to school...right? lol

Quote from: CALLM2U on April 04, 2024, 12:01:07 PM

Quote from: g8rvet on April 04, 2024, 11:56:39 AM

Quote from: CALLM2U on April 04, 2024, 11:53:55 AM
This has been enlightening, I didn't know that there were still "Lead is superior" people still around.   I guess they are probably members of the flat earth and birds aren't real clubs.

I don't really think anyone is saying lead is superior so much as they are saying it is good enough (mostly in 12 gauge) for ethical shot distance. It is NOT superior based on ballistics, I just think they are saying inside 40, lead has killed a ton of birds.

I think William from Sumtoy says to let him know "How dead do you want him" when working up patterns.

Granted I haven't read all of the thread, but there are definitely people talking about loosing more birds with TSS and lead hitting harder.   I don't care to argue the point because I just find this whole thing funny, but there are for sure people who believe it is superior.

You are probably right

Just saw this posted on line. It takes the wind out of the sails of those who say  people who shoot TSS only do so to kill gobblers at extended ranges. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240404/4bc71140196a97d06366d11167e1f681.jpg)

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Quote from: g8rvet on April 04, 2024, 11:56:39 AM

Quote from: CALLM2U on April 04, 2024, 11:53:55 AM
This has been enlightening, I didn't know that there were still "Lead is superior" people still around.   I guess they are probably members of the flat earth and birds aren't real clubs.

I don't really think anyone is saying lead is superior so much as they are saying it is good enough (mostly in 12 gauge) for ethical shot distance. It is NOT superior based on ballistics, I just think they are saying inside 40, lead has killed a ton of birds.

I think William from Sumtoy says to let him know "How dead do you want him" when working up patterns.

This is about where I'm at on the TSS vs lead craze. To be completely transparent, I'm 28 years old, have 3 kids, oldest is 6, bought a nice house 3 years ago, have two newer, dependable vehicles, and a paid for work car that isn't 10 years old yet. I've bought and paid for everything I've owned since I was 17 and graduated high school. I'm the sole income other than my wife splitting one bill a month. I'm at the point in my life where I'd rather spend the limited amount of extra money I have a month on the kids, or trips with the family than on shotgun shells. I've seen triple digits of turkeys killed dead 50 yards and in with good ol #5 lead, and at 22$ for a box of 10. With me shooting 2 a year, it's the best bang for my buck currently.

On the flip side of that, TSS is better as far as pattern density, pellet count, and offering a more lethal sub gauge gun. For the kids, I have a few boxes of TSS in .410 and 28 gauge and I save them solely for them if they ever get infected with this disease.

There is nothing wrong with either and at what I consider "beating the gobbler" ranges of 35 yards and closer, they're just as dead with lead 5's as they are with #9 TSS.

I spend my allowance on lead because it's cheaper and kills em, but for my kids, there is not an allowance I'd stop at to give them every advantage they can have that I didn't 24 years ago when I started.


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Quote from: Old Swamper on April 04, 2024, 09:46:17 AM
Real easy for me to explain. Most ALL who shoot it, including most who have posted on this thread, despite what they may claim, are doing so for the sole purpose of "attempting" to kill turkeys at 50+yards. I shoot 12ga lead, because I am still man enough to tote around a 7lb gun. I am an ethical turkey hunter and will keep my shots within 40 steps.

If someone ever tells you 'don't be that guy', this is what they mean.

The moral to this whole discussion is simple. Lead, Hevi, and TSS will ALL kill, there is no debating that. But in the end, TSS provides better patterns than lead and Hevi due to being superior in density. TSS also produces more energy downrange than lead or Hevi. As an adult, make your choice and spend your money however you please.

Quote from: Old Swamper on April 04, 2024, 09:46:17 AM
Real easy for me to explain. Most ALL who shoot it, including most who have posted on this thread, despite what they may claim, are doing so for the sole purpose of "attempting" to kill turkeys at 50+yards. I shoot 12ga lead, because I am still man enough to tote around a 7lb gun. I am an ethical turkey hunter and will keep my shots within 40 steps.

It sounds like you have met and understand everyone on this sight and are manlier than most of us for being able to lift 7lbs. You do understand Lead can also kill as far as you state? TSS is more than that. My kids and wife can shoot a smaller gauge with a better ethical chance at killing a bird than lead and the same gauge weapon. ie...410g . As for myself, I choose a gun that weighs 7.5 pounds (gotcha by 1/2 lb.) and use TSS for the shear amount of pellets sent downrange compared to lead. Example...I'm in Iraq. Inbound missile. I can shoot 1 missile in hopes of hitting it or send a patriot battery (16) at one time. Both have the same energy, and speed. Best chance of a kill is to send all 16. If I can send 150-200 more pellet's down range, with the same energy, sorry my friend, that's a no brainer! Distance is not a factor!

This whole thread has been comical.

Plain and simple if your not shooting extended ranges (past 40 yards) there's really no need for 900 pellets or shooting jello on YouTube or garbage can lids lol. If I can't get the gobbler to 40 yards or less I try again the next day.

I've killed over 100 gobblers my house, both trucks and everything else is paid for lol I make more money a day now than I made in a week 15 years ago. WTF that has to do with Turkey hunting I don't know just thought I'd add it in.

Quote from: lalongbeard75 on April 04, 2024, 03:53:26 PM
This whole thread has been comical.

Plain and simple if your not shooting extended ranges (past 40 yards) there's really no need for 900 pellets or shooting jello on YouTube or garbage can lids lol. If I can't get the gobbler to 40 yards or less I try again the next day.

I've killed over 100 gobblers my house, both trucks and everything else is paid for lol I make more money a day now than I made in a week 15 years ago. WTF that has to do with Turkey hunting I don't know just thought I'd add it in.

It seems you have a problem with my response. The meaning behind it was to say, in a nutshell shell, that there are more important things for me to spend my money on at my age than 10 to 15$ a shotgun shell to shoot a gobbler at less than 40 yards. But I also understand the other side of the coin as younger hunters or old men might want a lighter gun with less recoil and be just as effective. If you have a problem you're more than welcome to message me.


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I shot " whatever " shell shots best from my gun that I can afford .
I know my weapon and its capabilities . Just because my gun / shell combo is lethal
at longer ranges then turkey guns where years back , this doesn't mean I compromise my turkey hunting values or ethics .
If they outlawed tss / heavy shot etc , it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least , but as long as it legal, l  feel I owe it to my self and the gobblers I choose to take  to shot the very best I can .

Quote from: Howie g on April 04, 2024, 09:49:03 PM
I shot " whatever " shell shots best from my gun that I can afford .
I know my weapon and its capabilities . Just because my gun / shell combo is lethal
at longer ranges then turkey guns where years back , this doesn't mean I compromise my turkey hunting values or ethics .
If they outlawed tss / heavy shot etc , it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least , but as long as it legal, l  feel I owe it to my self and the gobblers I choose to take  to shot the very best I can .

Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 04, 2024, 02:25:20 PM

Quote from: g8rvet on April 04, 2024, 11:56:39 AM

Quote from: CALLM2U on April 04, 2024, 11:53:55 AM
This has been enlightening, I didn't know that there were still "Lead is superior" people still around.   I guess they are probably members of the flat earth and birds aren't real clubs.

I don't really think anyone is saying lead is superior so much as they are saying it is good enough (mostly in 12 gauge) for ethical shot distance. It is NOT superior based on ballistics, I just think they are saying inside 40, lead has killed a ton of birds.

I think William from Sumtoy says to let him know "How dead do you want him" when working up patterns.

This is about where I'm at on the TSS vs lead craze. To be completely transparent, I'm 28 years old, have 3 kids, oldest is 6, bought a nice house 3 years ago, have two newer, dependable vehicles, and a paid for work car that isn't 10 years old yet. I've bought and paid for everything I've owned since I was 17 and graduated high school. I'm the sole income other than my wife splitting one bill a month. I'm at the point in my life where I'd rather spend the limited amount of extra money I have a month on the kids, or trips with the family than on shotgun shells. I've seen triple digits of turkeys killed dead 50 yards and in with good ol #5 lead, and at 22$ for a box of 10. With me shooting 2 a year, it's the best bang for my buck currently.

On the flip side of that, TSS is better as far as pattern density, pellet count, and offering a more lethal sub gauge gun. For the kids, I have a few boxes of TSS in .410 and 28 gauge and I save them solely for them if they ever get infected with this disease.

There is nothing wrong with either and at what I consider "beating the gobbler" ranges of 35 yards and closer, they're just as dead with lead 5's as they are with #9 TSS.

I spend my allowance on lead because it's cheaper and kills em, but for my kids, there is not an allowance I'd stop at to give them every advantage they can have that I didn't 24 years ago when I started.


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I love these two post.

Scott knows his priorities.
Howie knows his convictions.

Do whats right for you, no need to beat some else down in the process.
BTW, TSS is Superior.

Quote from: Howie g on April 04, 2024, 09:49:03 PM
I shot " whatever " shell shots best from my gun that I can afford .
I know my weapon and its capabilities . Just because my gun / shell combo is lethal
at longer ranges then turkey guns where years back , this doesn't mean I compromise my turkey hunting values or ethics .
If they outlawed tss / heavy shot etc , it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least , but as long as it legal, l  feel I owe it to my self and the gobblers I choose to take  to shot the very best I can .

Bingo.


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Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 04, 2024, 06:41:57 PM

Quote from: lalongbeard75 on April 04, 2024, 03:53:26 PM

It seems you have a problem with my response. The meaning behind it was to say, in a nutshell shell, that there are more important things for me to spend my money on at my age than 10 to 15$ a shotgun shell to shoot a gobbler at less than 40 yards. But I also understand the other side of the coin as younger hunters or old men might want a lighter gun with less recoil and be just as effective. If you have a problem you're more than welcome to message me.


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I just thought it was funny, you have a problem you can PM me

Back to the OP, the only explanation I need is to show them a #9 tss vs a #5 and #6 pattern, explain they are all at 40yds and all will kill a bird every time. Let them choose from there.  Never had anyone choose anything but the tss.

Also, I wanted, but would not purchase, a 20 ga for a long time for the weight reduction, but never considered any load adequate for my taste until tss came along.

A side benefit for me has been ZERO pellets in the breasts, which was a constant problem with #5lbxr in my 12 ga. The tss zips right through and gone and also does not pull the small pin feathers with them into the meat.

Great point bwhana.  That radiograph under my tag line is with #7 Federal Heavyweight and there are not many pellets retained.  That bird was shot about 30 yards.  Another Xray I took was shot with lead #6 and there were a ton of pellets.   The HW just zipped right through.  He was ate up with pellets.

A number 9 TSS pellet weighs right there with a 7 1/2 lead pellet.
But even those who swear by the old Federal 2 oz 7 1/2 loads say they wouldn't trust them much beyond 35 yards. 
Yet no improvement from TSS 9 shot in killing ability?

Most .410 TSS patterns have no more pellets than the average 5 lead pattern from a 12 gauge. 
So how is it that a TSS 9 .410 load kill turkeys just as dead as the 5 lead of a 12 gauge with both doing around 100 or so in the 10" at 40 yards? You have to have more TSS in the pattern? Don't believe so.
Those who gave up the 3 1/2" lead loads for a 20, 28, or even the little .410 with TSS are only looking to increase the range past 40, really? What was the 3 1/2 12 for ? Or the longbeard loads that some love to use?

Quote from: dublelung on April 02, 2024, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Bottomland OG on April 02, 2024, 12:21:20 PM
I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

Yes, sounds like body shot birds. But the TSS penetrated the vitals, heart lungs etc.

If ppl cant understand the connection of weight, pattern density, penetration, and number of hits in the vitals then they are clueless and will never understand unless you shot a pattern of each in front of them with sheet metal as the backer to let them visualize the pattern density and penetration that tss offers. A lot of ppl are too ignorant or simply won't take the time to put the thought process thru their head. Do you have to shoot tss, NO, is it far superior, YES.