How do you explain the concept of TSS

[Ihuntoldschool]

Once again I feel compelled to set the record straight.

TSS does kill but to be clear it takes more pellet hits to get the job done compared to lead shot sizes used in turkey hunting.

A TSS 9 may penetrate as deep as a lead 5 but it can never hit with near the energy pellet for pellet.
Furthermore,  lead being softer deforms and transfers its energy much better than harder TSS.

I don't care what ppl shoot. But if the topic is explaining the concept of TSS I'll stick with facts over fairy tales every time.

[Bottomland OG]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

[Jbird22]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

Surprised to hear that. Those loads should have been devastating at those ranges.

[Marc]

Shot shells kill by putting as many pellets as possible in the vitals has nothing to do with wound channel or hole size. Will 1 pellet kill a turkey absolutely, but putting 70 in the vitals will do it much more efficiently.

I do not think that is quite accurate?

A single #1 steel pellet traveling all the way through a bird, will do more tissue damage than a single #9 TSS pellet traveling all the way through the bird.

Larger wound channels have a greater chance of doing tissue damage than smaller wound channels.  Multiple smaller wound channels have a higher chance of causing tissue damage to vitals than a single larger wound channel (which is what I believe your point is).

We are not shooting #14 TSS cause at some point the pellets become too small to accomplish what we are hoping.  You have to cause enough tissue damage to vital organs for a load to be efficient.

While a turkey is relatively large compared to other birds hunted, we are shooting a smaller target.  We do not shoot at the body of a turkey, we shoot at the head...  We need pellets that are large enough to damage/break vertebrae to be lethal, but small enough to put a lot of pellets in the area (in order to hit).

The hardness and increased density both lead to tighter patterns (and less fliers) as well as increased down-range energy...  This means that a smaller pellet of higher density will travel further than a large pellet of lesser density...  But...  a #4 TSS pellet will still travel further than a #9 TSS pellet.

[bowbird87]

Shot shells kill by putting as many pellets as possible in the vitals has nothing to do with wound channel or hole size. Will 1 pellet kill a turkey absolutely, but putting 70 in the vitals will do it much more efficiently.

I do not think that is quite accurate?

A single #1 steel pellet traveling all the way through a bird, will do more tissue damage than a single #9 TSS pellet traveling all the way through the bird.

It's not a fair comparison to measure tss vs lead damage on a 1 to 1 basis. Most pattern testing I've done on a Turkey target (#9 tss vs 5 and 6 lead mainly longbeard xr) usually at least 2.5 to 1 often higher in the number of strikes in the vitals. So yes 1 to 1 #5 creates more damage. In the real world 9s win in damage by putting 2-3x the pellets in the vitals.

Larger wound channels have a greater chance of doing tissue damage than smaller wound channels.  Multiple smaller wound channels have a higher chance of causing tissue damage to vitals than a single larger wound channel (which is what I believe your point is).

We are not shooting #14 TSS cause at some point the pellets become too small to accomplish what we are hoping.  You have to cause enough tissue damage to vital organs for a load to be efficient.

While a turkey is relatively large compared to other birds hunted, we are shooting a smaller target.  We do not shoot at the body of a turkey, we shoot at the head...  We need pellets that are large enough to damage/break vertebrae to be lethal, but small enough to put a lot of pellets in the area (in order to hit).

The hardness and increased density both lead to tighter patterns (and less fliers) as well as increased down-range energy...  This means that a smaller pellet of higher density will travel further than a large pellet of lesser density...  But...  a #4 TSS pellet will still travel further than a #9 TSS pellet.

[Old Timer]

I'm not a very scientific guy. This subject has been beat to death. So I use Apex 3lnch #8 in my Mossberg sa 2o because I'm old and the firearm is light. If i want to go old school In my Mossberg 835 I use #5 lb or Fed 4,5 or 6 lead.. Works for me. Good day

[joey46]

Way too much info since I don't have an advanced degree from MIT.  Bottom line is if you are using one of the smaller guns, especially the .410, use TSS.  The big birds deserve a clean ethical kill.  Everytime I see some internet clown talking about a 60 yard pattern my blood boils.

[Bottomland OG]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

Surprised to hear that. Those loads should have been devastating at those ranges.

They are on paper, so I know I'm not hitting them with the core. I just don't know enough about tss to say one way or another.

[WV Flopper]

 Wow, some guys have went to great lengths to show their ignorance.

If you don't want to shoot TSS, Don't. It is superior to Lead!

Lots of people here stuck on KE. Using a  published muzzle velocity.... A deformed, soft, lead pellet loses velocity quickly. The deformed pellet also does not pattern as well as a hard round pellet.

Your formulas are not applicable past the end of the barrel.

[WV Flopper]

 Forget your numbers for a bit. Just a bit.

Lead is soft. Tungsten is hard. If this is in doubt give both the bite test. Use an equal size sample.

Now, we have an idea of the media we are working with. Let's talk about what happens. The pulling of the trigger causes an explosion in your gun barrel. This explosion is VERY violent! Upon detonation of the powder an enormous amount of pressure is put on the pellets. Ok, numbers guys, what's lead running at, what's TSS running at? Pressure...

This explosion/pressure deforms the soft pellet more so than the harder pellet, plus the trip down the tube beating into each other and exiting the tube we have designed to push them together "tighter" all add to the deforming of the projectile. The harder the projectile the less deformation will occur.
The deformed pellet DOES not fly as true. The deformed pellet WILL lose velocity at a faster rate than the pellet that is true. A deformed pellet rips and grabs and will not penetrate as well as the true pellet.This is why your formulas are not accurate.
Let's consider a two once load of #6 lead and #9 TSS, gauge doesn't matter here. 2oz is 2oz, TSS has so many more projectiles its not even funny. Projectiles that are not deformed, that are flying true. TSS out preforms lead for several reasons.

The Long beards are and have been the best lead shell ever produced to produce an excellent pattern that were lead. They controlled the deforming of the projectiles before exiting the barrel. It's that simple!

[WV Flopper]

 BTW, pressure is set by industry standards, for an "insured/bonded" ammunition manufacturer I would "Guess" the pressure is the same Lead compared to TSS. It is designed to protect the user and firearm. Pressure limits are set to take into account legacy firearms still in use.

[Jbird22]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

Surprised to hear that. Those loads should have been devastating at those ranges.

They are on paper, so I know I'm not hitting them with the core. I just don't know enough about tss to say one way or another.

I don't know what your issue could be in all honesty. I've been shooting TSS handloads since 2017 and they have always got the job done when I did mine. All but 1 kill have been with 20 ga #9's. The 1 that wasn't was with 12 ga #8's.

[Number17]

Lead is soft as lead. Copper plated lead is soft as copper......which is much harder than lead. Almost all lead turkey loads are copper plated lead and are not nearly as deformed as the above post would like you to believe. Do the tooth test on a copper plated 5 and your teeth won't know the difference between that and tungsten. A cracked tooth will be the result for both.

Shotgun pellets don't kill turkeys because of energy transfer. They kill by breaking bones, penetrating deeply and shutting down the central nervous system. I'd rather the pellets go in and out, doing their job with transferring the least amount of energy.

LaLongbeard had everything right until he stated those tiny 9s aren't comparable to copper plated lead 4 or 5 sizes larger. Killing turkeys is all about penetration and breaking bones to shut down the CNS. The 9 to 5 comparison has been tested and proven many different ways. It is indeed an accurate comparison. The hype is real. The hype is factual. It does what they claim.

[Gooserbat]

It's like throwing golf balls instead of tennis balls.

After somewhere between 50-60 dead turkeys from #9 tss all i can say is.it works as advertised.  Imho the naysayers wouldn't naysay if it didn't cost what it does. 

[WV Flopper]

Internet.

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