Arkansas changed its 2023/2024 fees big time. You can no longer buy the 1 day, 3 day, and 5 day for turkey. Non resident hunters must buy the license that is $410 plus a $100 turkey stamp fee. So $510 for a non resident to turkey hunt next year!
That'll fix them. How much did the resident licenses increase and did the limits change?
Watch how little this will help with the turkey crisis. LOL. A guy on a Fl forum wants a $500 Osceola tag. Politicians laughing.
I'm waiting on some southern states to require decoys be licensed and registered like boats. Male decoys surcharged.
Other than the border state guys jumping back and forth I can't remember Arkansas being anyone's go to non-res hot spot. The border motels and campgrounds that will lose revenue from this insanity obviously don't count. Maybe they can start some GoFund Me accounts.
:DShoot! A $400 nonresident is nuttin. At last check a DBBlind is almost there in cost. Decoys? Scaring or surpassing a hondo right there. Special clothes, camo, vest? $200 or more. +$1000 shotgun and $10 a shot TSS? Name brand mouth calls and a G.O.A.T. STicker on the truck... I can't afford them "elite" price tags , lol
Quote from: joey46 on August 02, 2023, 12:39:58 PM
That'll fix them. How much did the resident licenses increase and did the limits change?
Watch how little this will help with the turkey crisis. LOL. A guy on a Fl forum wants a $500 Osceola tag. Politicians laughing.
I'm waiting on some southern states to require decoys be licensed and registered like boats. Male decoys surcharged.
Other than the border state guys jumping back and forth I can't remember Arkansas being anyone's go to non-res hot spot. The border motels and campgrounds that will lose revenue from this insanity obviously don't count. Maybe they can start some GoFund Me accounts.
You could buy a 1 day license for $50, a 3 day or 5 day for like $100. Before the increase you did not have to buy the regular license which was $350. They increased that to $410 plus having to buy the $100 stamp.
I'm not griping about it, i will pay it regardless, but i just think its rediculos.
Man I hope Ms. will return the favor!!
The limit is 2, but you can only kill one in the first 7 days.
If you don't think Arkansas was a hot spot, you have never hunted it. It used to be unreal. But the decline in the last 10 years has been bad.
No I never hunted it. With Easterns there wasn't any real need to run all over. When I lived in Ohio I had KY, WV, PA, and TN to choose from. Ran out of time and money long before running that route further south.
Sure seems they don't want many OOS hunters visiting.
Glad I traveled and hunted for years before a few pimped it out and ruined it....Let the genie out of bottle for peanuts. Loose lips sink ships. #betthat #justadapt
So it sounds like Arkansas is the most expensive tag now, and likely the worst state to hunt turkeys?
Good luck.
Quote from: 3bailey3 on August 02, 2023, 05:25:05 PM
Man I hope Ms. will return the favor!!
Mississippi don't have the cuhonies to do that. You can't hardly get in govt. Woods when turkey season rolls around.
It's a scarce resource and a price increase like that will absolutely deter a significant number of OOS hunters from visiting. I suspect the increase in license costs for those who choose to buy it will offset any revenue losses potentially incurred from reduced sales.
At the end of the day, states should be taking care of their residents and I firmly believe most residents are willing absorb cost increases incurred by the reduction of non-res opportunity.
Hell, I'd have a party at my place if Virginia would start charging out of staters $400 bucks and only allow them to kill 1 bird. It'll be a win for Arkansas hunters and I can only hope for their sake it helps them reclaim a quarter of the reputation that state formerly maintained as a wild turkey power house.
Quote from: Prohunter3509 on August 02, 2023, 07:15:37 PM
Quote from: 3bailey3 on August 02, 2023, 05:25:05 PM
Man I hope Ms. will return the favor!!
Mississippi don't have the cuhonies to do that. You can't hardly get in govt. Woods when turkey season rolls around.
At the Mississippi commission meeting in May, a friend of a very powerful former commissioner publicly commented he'd like to see a $500 NR license for turkey. I remember laughing out loud at it. A couple weeks later I saw the Ark news. :o Couldn't help but wonder if he was already in the know.
I'd like to see TN charge Arkansans $1,000.
Quote from: Kyle_Ott on August 02, 2023, 08:04:21 PM
It's a scarce resource and a price increase like that will absolutely deter a significant number of OOS hunters from visiting. I suspect the increase in license costs for those who choose to buy it will offset any revenue losses potentially incurred from reduced sales.
At the end of the day, states should be taking care of their residents and I firmly believe most residents are willing absorb cost increases incurred by the reduction of non-res opportunity.
Hell, I'd have a party at my place if Virginia would start charging out of staters $400 bucks and only allow them to kill 1 bird. It'll be a win for Arkansas hunters and I can only hope for their sake it helps them reclaim a quarter of the reputation that state formerly maintained as a wild turkey power house.
Really? Is that taking care of its residents? How many residents will loose income. From hotel fees & taxes? How many restaurants loose income, staff lost tips. Non-residents pay a lots taxes when they visit a state, sales & hotels tax on a room is 19% in Arkansas. Who's going to make up that lost income tax?
Wild game belongs to ALL residents of the state, not just hunters.
Quote from: Crghss on August 02, 2023, 08:25:53 PM
Quote from: Kyle_Ott on August 02, 2023, 08:04:21 PM
It's a scarce resource and a price increase like that will absolutely deter a significant number of OOS hunters from visiting. I suspect the increase in license costs for those who choose to buy it will offset any revenue losses potentially incurred from reduced sales.
At the end of the day, states should be taking care of their residents and I firmly believe most residents are willing absorb cost increases incurred by the reduction of non-res opportunity.
Hell, I'd have a party at my place if Virginia would start charging out of staters $400 bucks and only allow them to kill 1 bird. It'll be a win for Arkansas hunters and I can only hope for their sake it helps them reclaim a quarter of the reputation that state formerly maintained as a wild turkey power house.
Really? Is that taking care of its residents? How many residents will loose income. From hotel fees & taxes? How many restaurants loose income, staff lost tips. Non-residents pay a lots taxes when they visit a state, sales & hotels tax on a room is 19% in Arkansas. Who's going to make up that lost income tax?
Wild game belongs to ALL residents of the state, not just hunters.
Just think, the same could be said for ALL the states where hunting opportunity has been lost thanks to social media and YouTube. Reckon how much more lost revenue there is to the residents than the money those few are making pimping out the resource? But doesn't matter, they get theirs.
I don't think the Arkansas economy ever saw a bump from OOS turkey hunting. Ducks = different story
turkeyhunt, mr. billy?
Meanwhile- Arkansas Traveling Turkey Killers will continue to bombard Mississippi Public Lands and come out with more then their share. A whole Army of Them.
That much of a change in license costs will probably be significant to a number of folks that may have regularly hunted Arkansas. The points made in the comments above, either pro or con, are valid. The "proof in the pudding", one way or another, will be shown by the statistics we see next spring and beyond in the impact on nonresident hunter participation not only in Arkansas, but also in the surrounding states that will likely also be impacted. We will see what ripple effects will be felt in that area region...
A wild game resource isn't worth the risk of loosing over hotel and restaurant revenue.
I just hope we don't see "license wars" between states like we have in the past in the southeast. Some have been moreso with fishing than hunting, but it happens. Wouldn't doubt MO raising their turkey license cost again in the coming years as a result.
Slippery slope IMO. Like many have said, this could create a war between states and we could see increases across the board. I am all for creating revenue that benefits the wildlife and hunting access, but my trust in Govt decision making is probably as low as many of us on this board.
If you look back i made a generic post about something similar to the resident / out of state hunter taking over public land, and see it's coming true, with states starting to charge more for out of state hunters ... I agree this is just the start in my opinions other states will either change the way they let out of state hunters hunter or they will also charge more for licenses and a user fee for public land hunting .... They have to slow down the number of people traveling out of state to these public grounds .... IMO
We will be Europe before too long, the poor folk will be priced out of hunting, even on "public" lands!
Quote from: Louisiana Longbeard on August 02, 2023, 11:51:57 AM
Arkansas changed its 2023/2024 fees big time. You can no longer buy the 1 day, 3 day, and 5 day for turkey. Non resident hunters must buy the license that is $410 plus a $100 turkey stamp fee. So $510 for a non resident to turkey hunt next year!
I'd choose that over a limited draw any given day of the week.
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Quote from: Dtrkyman on August 03, 2023, 12:06:25 PM
We will be Europe before too long, the poor folk will be priced out of hunting, even on "public" lands!
It sucks. But expensive sure beats forced loss of opportunity in reduced tags.
Once opportunity is gone, we'd be looking and begging for the chance to spend more money to go enjoy what we love.
The resource hurting for many reasons, whether we like it or not will result in more limited tags, or a cut back due to price increases. At least with the more expensive tags it's somewhat in our hands as a choice. Where as limited tags are not
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Just adapt......
Very true. You could just whine about it to the politicians. Can't wait to see the first $1000 non-res tag. Start a pool on which southern state makes that move. You guys remember the old reciprocal days between two certain states? How'd that end up? The serious non-res will simply buy a plane ticket or carpool with a few buddies and head to any of several states not playing this game. I currently have 6 destinations in mind all north of the the Mason Dixie line or west of the Mississippi for any future safaris. Punishing the non-res won't solve your crisis. Shorter seasons and reduced limits for the resident's (that kill the vast majority of the birds) are the wave of the future. Still see crying over a limit going from 3 to 2 in some state or another. If 3 bird limits anywhere aren't a memory they should be. Adapt.
Quote from: joey46 on August 03, 2023, 02:54:10 PM
Very true. You could just whine about it to the politicians. Can't wait to see the first $1000 non-res tag. Start a pool on which southern state makes that move. You guys remember the old reciprocal days between two certain states? How'd that end up? The serious non-res will simply buy a plane ticket or carpool with a few buddies and head to any of several states not playing this game. I currently have 6 destinations in mind all north of the the Mason Dixie line or west of the Mississippi for any future safaris. Punishing the non-res won't solve your crisis. Shorter seasons and reduced limits for the resident's (that kill the vast majority of the birds) are the wave of the future. Still see crying over a limit going from 3 to 2 in some state or another. If 3 bird limits anywhere aren't a memory they should be. Adapt.
I don't think a lot of these rules are solely tied to populations. Many of them are tired to overcrowding ruining the experience. Which is fixed by limiting NR
They all affect me as I pretty much just hunt as a NR but, I'd rather be able to buy a tag than Wait and pray I draw
We only have so many seasons, and we will usually run out if time before money
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I'm surprised these License hikes, fees, qualifying licenses, etc haven't spread through all the states. It is a huge revenue generator for their economies. Take Colorado for example. They take in over 3.2 Billion annually through hunting and fishing creating 25,000 plus jobs. In order to Big Game Hunt, you have to purchase a "Qualifying License" in order to enter their draw lotteries. This license change took place in 2019 I believe, it increased license revenue by 20%. Hunters still flock there every year, the increases have not slowed non-resident interests. Unfortunately this "Cash Cow" mentality could easily distract attention if the game resource numbers diminish. Once your used to collecting all that cash, it's hard to turn back. Let's hope it doesn't spread, but I fear it will.......
Just a guess but any non-res heading to FL for that Osceola are good for a while. These politicians love when you come down, dump the wife and kids in Orlando, and run off to hunt. $$$$$$$. Does any state have quota hunts and not give residents a priority? I am talking about the general quotas not the very limited Special Op hunts. We all get to pay $5 per chance for these.
Quote from: Dtrkyman on August 03, 2023, 12:06:25 PM
We will be Europe before too long, the poor folk will be priced out of hunting, even on "public" lands!
Already happening
While I wouldn't hunt turkey in AR $700 seems pretty cheap for a Wapiti license.
Definitely a cheap Elk tag these days, by the time I cash in my Wyoming points and buy a tag I will be over 2k most likely. Oh well it's only money, what else are you going to do with it besides spend it?
My suggestion from this old man, is you only live once, so enjoy and do what makes you happy.... If hunting other states or staying home .... It's only money... Just look at what people pay for duck leases and hunting leases ....
Quote from: Greg Massey on August 03, 2023, 07:53:15 PM
My suggestion from this old man, is you only live once, so enjoy and do what makes you happy.... If hunting other states or staying home .... It's only money... Just look at what people pay for duck leases and hunting leases ....
Disney vacations!!!
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It doesn't affect me and from what I've been reading, Arkansas has been a poor state for turkey hunting for some time.
I would be interested in what the percentage of NR kills in Arkansas is compared to R hunters?
I don't see how this move is going to help the population of turkeys in Arkansas unless a significant percentage of the kill is from NR hunters.
There are a ton of states with Easterns with better populations and much less expensive NR licenses, so for sure it will make no sense to travel and pay $500 for a license.
I'm guessing Arkansas's raise in license fee will mostly effect the people who need to check that state off in their quest for the slam. Don't see many hunters, other than slam seekers, putting Arkansas high on the priority list of turkey destinations. Slammers will pay the fee whether they like it or not.
Quote from: Paulmyr on August 04, 2023, 09:34:34 AM
I'm guessing Arkansas's raise in license fee will mostly effect the people who need to check that state off in their quest for the slam. Don't see many hunters, other than slam seekers, putting Arkansas high on the priority list of turkey destinations. Slammers will pay the fee whether they like it or not.
The main reason for this change was for duck hunting. The amount of grand standing behind this movement is astounding.
As everyone knows, I dislike the crowding that has become Turkey hunting as it rises in popularity. However, I am not about reduction in individual opportunity. Keeping that short, I would rather see changes in HOW we hunt rather than when or where we hunt... As a Mississippi rez and of course only imagining Florida I can certainly understand the crowded conditions.
So, as food for thought, I'm asking this: What if instead of pricing us out of traveling to another state, we gave a certain amount of opening season to residents? For example, next season, MS spring season is 50+ days. I would propose that the first 20-25% of the season is MS resident only. So March 15 is Friday. Residents hunt that WE, all the next week, and the following WE. On Monday, March 25 it would open to the general public so to speak. If you are in the northern clime and your season is 3wks(21 days) then residents only the first 3-5days. In MS at least if we aren't changing our opening it gets us to other states openings. What do y'all think? It may never happen but is it a valid idea?
Quote from: Prospector on August 05, 2023, 07:15:47 AM
As everyone knows, I dislike the crowding that has become Turkey hunting as it rises in popularity. However, I am not about reduction in individual opportunity. Keeping that short, I would rather see changes in HOW we hunt rather than when or where we hunt... As a Mississippi rez and of course only imagining Florida I can certainly understand the crowded conditions.
So, as food for thought, I'm asking this: What if instead of pricing us out of traveling to another state, we gave a certain amount of opening season to residents? For example, next season, MS spring season is 50+ days. I would propose that the first 20-25% of the season is MS resident only. So March 15 is Friday. Residents hunt that WE, all the next week, and the following WE. On Monday, March 25 it would open to the general public so to speak. If you are in the northern clime and your season is 3wks(21 days) then residents only the first 3-5days. In MS at least if we aren't changing our opening it gets us to other states openings. What do y'all think? It may never happen but is it a valid idea?
Personally, I have no issues with discussing, and possibly implementing, suggestions like this. However, I think a lot of these beginning-of-the-season nonresident issues would be solved simply by states getting together and agreeing to start their seasons on the same dates. That, in itself, would eliminate the issue of nonresidents jumping from state to state based on trying to hit the openers. If regional states (at least) decided to do this, hunters would have to make a single choice as to where to start their seasons. This, in itself, would go a long way in solving the perceived nonresident crowding problems being experienced on public lands in certain states. A guy can't be in south Florida and Mississippi at the same time... ;D
Delaying the season would just create a problem at a different time of the season, guess it would be fine by the locals, but guys would just flock there when they can.
A regional start date would be an interesting concept.
Personally I do not hunt states based on openers, I only hunt openers in 2 states that are convernient. That being said both of those states were a potential chit show, really busy, however I was able to avoid pressure and take birds in each stae quickly.
I certainly can see both sides. My suggestion only stems from the fact that ALL Turkey hunters should be able to expierence spring esp on Public ground fairly and economically in any/all states. My argument is that I believe most if not all public is federal land ( realizing that the resource is state "owned"). My gist is I from MS have just as much right to NF in Arkansas as someone from there in MS. In fact, I think NR prices should be level across the states with federally backed public land ( realizing that's a stretch too). I feel that 99% of MS crowding is bc our opening is before surrounding states. Therefore, the nod to residents the first part of the season. Now the regional concept is interesting. The only problem with that I could foresee is you cannot lump MS and say TN together. Having hunted both, east central MS is in full swing b4 east TN even starts gaining traction. I'm sure the same phenomenon would occur between MS and Florida ( esp southern Florida). At that point, I think you would have to draw lines E to W through states. I too enjoy this kind of discourse, real people being real....
Quote from: Prospector on August 05, 2023, 07:15:47 AM
So, as food for thought, I'm asking this: What if instead of pricing us out of traveling to another state, we gave a certain amount of opening season to residents? For example, next season, MS spring season is 50+ days. I would propose that the first 20-25% of the season is MS resident only. So March 15 is Friday. Residents hunt that WE, all the next week, and the following WE. On Monday, March 25 it would open to the general public so to speak. If you are in the northern clime and your season is 3wks(21 days) then residents only the first 3-5days. In MS at least if we aren't changing our opening it gets us to other states openings. What do y'all think? It may never happen but is it a valid idea?
At one of this year's commission meetings, someone with political ties made public comment with this very idea. Personally, I'd hate to see it even though i'm a resident of MS. I'm sick of this path of opportunity reduction in turkey hunting. But I would not be surprised in the least if some states eventually go this route. And we hunters helped do it to ourselves by supporting those commercially exploiting our public resources.
One thing to keep in mind, is that restricting non-resident hunting on federal land is not a new concept. It's been happening for decades out west for big game. And restrictions just keep getting tighter and tighter out west as demand rises. The EXACT same thing is happening with turkey hunting, just a decade or two later. And if the current turkey culture maintains status quo and doesn't make some changes, folks are going to be in for a rude awakening in another decade. Even higher prices for licenses, higher turkey lease prices, public land/NR restrictions galore. You can bet on it. Some of us have been shouting this for years on here and its all now coming to fruition.
Remember, non-migratory wildlife is managed by the state, not the feds. You can still go hike, birdwatch, bike ride on federal lands in other states as a non-resident. You just may be waiting 5 years to turkey hunt it in the future.
Quote from: Spurs on August 05, 2023, 06:34:32 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on August 04, 2023, 09:34:34 AM
I'm guessing Arkansas's raise in license fee will mostly effect the people who need to check that state off in their quest for the slam. Don't see many hunters, other than slam seekers, putting Arkansas high on the priority list of turkey destinations. Slammers will pay the fee whether they like it or not.
The main reason for this change was for duck hunting. The amount of grand standing behind this movement is astounding.
Eh, but they specifically added $100/each turkey permits. That is definitely geared towards turkey hunters.
This is the first time i've saw it clearly defined that it is $100/turkey permit, initially i was under the assumption it was $100 for both. So $200 more JUST for turkey hunters if they want to kill 2 birds! Truly $510 for ONE TURKEY, or $610 for two. Wow. I knew turkey was headed the western big game route but we gonna get to deer and elk license prices sooner than I thought!
Nonresident Turkey Permit (must accompany valid Nonresident Annual Hunting License) – $100 each, limit two permits per yearHere is the official link to Ark press release on the license hike:
https://www.agfc.com/en/news/2023/07/19/nonresident-hunters-should-check-twice-for-new-permits-when-renewing-licenses/
Yes I know that is routinely done out west but the restrictions on non-res on the federal lands has always griped me. Charging more ok but totally shutting out hunters isn't. Anyone know how far up in the courts this has been challenged? Will just take one protected class complaining and one federal judge to throw this into a free-for-all. There is something going in WY now about corner crossing and BLM land but I don't know enough about it to explain. Of course there is a YouTube about it somewhere. Some guys actually built a ladder bridge to cross from one section of BLM to another so as not to trespass at a corner. For all the whining about it IMO if you are hunting out west you do need OnX or a similar app.
Quote from: joey46 on August 05, 2023, 11:13:28 AM
Yes I know that is routinely done out west but the restrictions on non-res on the federal lands has always griped me. Charging more ok but totally shutting out hunters isn't. Anyone know how far up in the courts this has been challenged? Will just take one protected class and one federal judge to throw this into a free-for-all. There is something going in WY now about corner crossing and BLM land but I don't know enough about it to explain. Of course there is a YouTube about it.
If it could be challenged, I think it would have happened long before now just due to how ingrained it is in western states. There is SO much money involved at this point, probably upwards of $100 mill a year just from non-resident applications and point fees (where NR don't even get a tag to hunt!) Any significant changes would absolutely cripple western state game and fish budgets.
I picked the perfect time to hunt Ark this past spring. Best 2 year old crop in a while and saved a few hundred bucks on license fees! I was definitely considering heading back in the future, as I do some deer hunting there too. But they have officially priced me out.
(https://i.imgur.com/NdJiexm.png)
And that bird has beard rot by the way. NOT a jake :TooFunny:
How did you get a picture of that size to post? You must be special. Lol.
Quote from: joey46 on August 05, 2023, 11:33:24 AM
How did you get a picture of that size to post? You must be special. Lol.
It seriously took me nearly 10 minutes of editing, and editing, and editing the size. Pretty annoying. I ended up just using the "snipping tool" in windows and snipped the actual picture and saved it so it'd reduce file size a ton.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 05, 2023, 10:56:02 AM
One thing to keep in mind, is that restricting non-resident hunting on federal land is not a new concept. It's been happening for decades out west for big game. And restrictions just keep getting tighter and tighter out west as demand rises. The EXACT same thing is happening with turkey hunting, just a decade or two later. And if the current turkey culture maintains status quo and doesn't make some changes, folks are going to be in for a rude awakening in another decade. Even higher prices for licenses, higher turkey lease prices, public land/NR restrictions galore. You can bet on it. Some of us have been shouting this for years on here and its all now coming to fruition.
Remember, non-migratory wildlife is managed by the state, not the feds. You can still go hike, birdwatch, bike ride on federal lands in other states as a non-resident. You just may be waiting 5 years to turkey hunt it in the future.
Kansas is looking at restricting duck hunters on all public land in the state to 3 days a week starting in 2024 (federal land included).
nice bird Nathan!
Go hogs......NOT!
(https://i.imgur.com/SBLY3r6.jpg)
That's an egg eater. Boom!
Quote from: nativeks on August 05, 2023, 12:06:32 PM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 05, 2023, 10:56:02 AM
One thing to keep in mind, is that restricting non-resident hunting on federal land is not a new concept. It's been happening for decades out west for big game. And restrictions just keep getting tighter and tighter out west as demand rises. The EXACT same thing is happening with turkey hunting, just a decade or two later. And if the current turkey culture maintains status quo and doesn't make some changes, folks are going to be in for a rude awakening in another decade. Even higher prices for licenses, higher turkey lease prices, public land/NR restrictions galore. You can bet on it. Some of us have been shouting this for years on here and its all now coming to fruition.
Remember, non-migratory wildlife is managed by the state, not the feds. You can still go hike, birdwatch, bike ride on federal lands in other states as a non-resident. You just may be waiting 5 years to turkey hunt it in the future.
Kansas is looking at restricting duck hunters on all public land in the state to 3 days a week starting in 2024 (federal land included).
I thought I read that 3 day thing only applied to non-res?
South Carolina is already $400 if you hunt public as a nonresident. Georgia is $325. Alabama $380. Out of state permits have always been ridiculous down here. Granted most offer a little leeway if doing only a few days but not significantly. Only difference is now there's a new leader and the state of this country's economy will also keep driving prices up....and we will pay.
My local F&G commissioner is a big duck hunter and spends time in Arkansas. Last fall he brought up the " reciprocation concept" as to non resident hunting and fishing licenses. It met some resistance but is back again this year with more support. I wonder if this didnt cause the uptick in support. Some serious stuff is brewing. And yes, I am getting my Osceola as soon as possible. Anything that is in limited numbers always gets crazy to do. Z
Quote from: joey46 on August 06, 2023, 06:19:32 AM
Quote from: nativeks on August 05, 2023, 12:06:32 PM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 05, 2023, 10:56:02 AM
One thing to keep in mind, is that restricting non-resident hunting on federal land is not a new concept. It's been happening for decades out west for big game. And restrictions just keep getting tighter and tighter out west as demand rises. The EXACT same thing is happening with turkey hunting, just a decade or two later. And if the current turkey culture maintains status quo and doesn't make some changes, folks are going to be in for a rude awakening in another decade. Even higher prices for licenses, higher turkey lease prices, public land/NR restrictions galore. You can bet on it. Some of us have been shouting this for years on here and its all now coming to fruition.
Remember, non-migratory wildlife is managed by the state, not the feds. You can still go hike, birdwatch, bike ride on federal lands in other states as a non-resident. You just may be waiting 5 years to turkey hunt it in the future.
Kansas is looking at restricting duck hunters on all public land in the state to 3 days a week starting in 2024 (federal land included).
I thought I read that 3 day thing only applied to non-res?
That is correct. NR duck hunters can only hunt public lands in the state Sun-tues if passed. I apologize for my vague wording above
BUMP - just returned from a Mississippi visit where I picked up a copy of their latest Outdoor Digest that included the 2024 turkey regs. Non-res can not hunt any public land during the first two weeks of the MS season. That includes all public land including the National Forest. Regular season March 15 - May 1 for residents. Regular season for non-res April 1 - May 1. Exceptions for quota hunts.
License fees - don't know what they were in the past so no comment. If only hunting 3 or 7 days I've seen worse.
Sure this is all on line somewhere. Good luck.
BTW - still show a limit of 3 gobblers in MS. Pretty much eliminates any talk about population decline concerns doesn't it?
Solent Green is PEOPLE. I wonder if anyone wishes they hadn't introduced so many others to the great sport of turkey hunting. This bell can't be unrung.
Quote from: Louisiana Longbeard on August 02, 2023, 11:51:57 AM
Arkansas changed its 2023/2024 fees big time. You can no longer buy the 1 day, 3 day, and 5 day for turkey. Non resident hunters must buy the license that is $410 plus a $100 turkey stamp fee. So $510 for a non resident to turkey hunt next year!
That is outrageous, every state should in turn charge Arkansas hunters the same fee.
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Quote from: Dtrkyman on August 03, 2023, 12:06:25 PM
We will be Europe before too long, the poor folk will be priced out of hunting, even on "public" lands!
I have said that here more than once, it is like that with leasing now, only the nobles can get in certain areas, one of the major reasons people left other countries. History repeating itself. Also if they cared about the turkey they should lower it to one turkey per person, I see noone supporting the increase supporting that, both residents and nonresidents should take one but it is a for me situation, not a for the turkey one as they like to claim.
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Just an IMO but if your state has a limit of more than two don't bother whining about decreasing turkey numbers. You are the problem not the solution.
Quote from: joey46 on August 28, 2023, 06:15:15 PM
Just an IMO but if your state has a limit of more than two don't bother whining about decreasing turkey numbers. You are the problem not the solution.
Agreed. People get mad when I suggest taking it down to one here until they recover some. (Currently 2 by the way in the Spring and I think 1 in the Fall but may be two)
Quote from: joey46 on August 28, 2023, 06:17:35 AM
BTW - still show a limit of 3 gobblers in MS. Pretty much eliminates any talk about population decline concerns doesn't it?
Quote from: joey46 on August 28, 2023, 06:15:15 PM
Just an IMO but if your state has a limit of more than two don't bother whining about decreasing turkey numbers. You are the problem not the solution.
Because most biologists know lowering the limit from 3 to 2 will not do a thing on the landscape level to increase turkey populations. And they recognize the importance of preserving opportunity.
Such a small percent of hunters actually take 3 (only about 10% of hunters who actually kill a turkey in MS, get their limit of 3), the change coming from going from 3 to 2 is insignificant. The gobbler "saved" also has to survive other hunters, or even the same hunter (who can take someone else), and then make it another year in nature to be "carried over". Multiple scientific models show the effect is insignificant as well.
Continuing to use MS for example:
10k reported birds harvested
~10% of those birds are someone's #3
~1,000 birds saved (Assumption, they could be killed by someone else) by reducing bag limit to 2
Spread those 1,000 birds across 82 counties
~12 gobblers "saved" per county in MS
The math will look very similar for other states.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 29, 2023, 08:59:25 AM
Quote from: joey46 on August 28, 2023, 06:17:35 AM
BTW - still show a limit of 3 gobblers in MS. Pretty much eliminates any talk about population decline concerns doesn't it?
Quote from: joey46 on August 28, 2023, 06:15:15 PM
Just an IMO but if your state has a limit of more than two don't bother whining about decreasing turkey numbers. You are the problem not the solution.
Because most biologists know lowering the limit from 3 to 2 will not do a thing on the landscape level to increase turkey populations. And they recognize the importance of preserving opportunity.
Such a small percent of hunters actually take 3 (only about 10% of hunters who actually kill a turkey in MS, get their limit of 3), the change coming from going from 3 to 2 is insignificant. The gobbler "saved" also has to survive other hunters, or even the same hunter (who can take someone else), and then make it another year in nature to be "carried over". Multiple scientific models show the effect is insignificant as well.
Continuing to use MS for example:
10k reported birds harvested
~10% of those birds are someone's #3
~1,000 birds saved (Assumption, they could be killed by someone else) by reducing bag limit to 2
Spread those 1,000 birds across 82 counties
~12 gobblers "saved" per county in MS
The math will look very similar for other states.
I've been hearing the same. Most biologist don't believe reducing limts would have a significant effect. From the numbers I been hearing I think your 10% might even be a little high.
I can tell you the pressure that was relieved when we went from 2 to 1 was tremendous.
Quote from: nativeks on August 29, 2023, 11:27:25 AM
I can tell you the pressure that was relieved when we went from 2 to 1 was tremendous.
[/quote
I'm sure it was. After reading multiple post for multiple months over this precieved turkey population crisis we still have some justifying three bird limits. If two birds doesn't satisfy you take up golf.
Quote from: joey46 on August 29, 2023, 05:58:17 PM
Quote from: nativeks on August 29, 2023, 11:27:25 AM
I can tell you the pressure that was relieved when we went from 2 to 1 was tremendous.
I'm sure it was. After reading multiple post for multiple months over this precieved turkey population crisis we still have some justifying three bird limits. If two birds doesn't satisfy you take up golf.
So you'd rather have opportunity taken away by telling somebody they can't hunt anymore because they shot 2 birds instead of the 3 they have been allowed in the past even though the state biologist says it would have no effect on the overall population because the number people who fill all their tags is insignificant. I've heard biologists from 2 states that have a strong heritage of turkey hunting say just this. One state is starting to recover from historic lows and the other just had a record hatch 2 years ago. Biologists on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as the status of thier turkey populations go, agree taking away opportunity by feel good legislation is not the answer.
Research has shown that limiting the harvest of mature gobblers does little to help the population. There have been several studies done that show that. Limiting the number of hunting opportunities does lead to fewer funds to be used by wildlife agencies to combat population decline with more successful methods like habitat improvement.
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Probably all States should go to a 2 Gobbler Limit. Still trying to figure out why New Jersey has no Max Limit on Gobblers. Half of Pennsylvania Turkey Hunters now try to Gobble up as many permits as possible and descend on the New Jersey Landscape like Locusts.
From what I'm reading here it shouldn't make any difference in NJ. Make them like squirrel with a daily limit of six. Maybe eight. There really is no population crisis anywhere. It was all a bad dream.
There was a time when one bird killed made a successful season. Now maybe not so much. Too bad. Wack um and stack um.
Or possibly the areas having problems are having them for reasons other than a minute number hunters taking one more gobbler than the rest. Poor habitat comes mind. I'll take the word of people who have been studying them for most of their adult lives over throwing darts at a board and hoping one sticks where I want it too.
It appears not all states share the same experts. Ohio and Tennessee come to mind. Ohio from 2 to 1. TN from 3 to 2. Down here in FL they hire a management company that give consistently glowing reports to FWC. When they finally have a seasons worth of actual harvest data from mandatory reporting it takes a FOIA request to get it. Hmm. Be more than happy to see FL with a one bird limit in the Osceola range. To think reduced limits and maybe shorter seasons won't help in a turkey population drop is false logic and IMO very selfish. Blaming the non-res while letting the residents shoot um up more a political move than a biological one.
As has been pointed out "ad nauseum" before, this debate all comes down to "population recruitment". Regardless of what the bag limit is, if you are killing more turkeys than are being replaced in the population through reproduction each year, you are eventually going to run out of turkeys to hunt.
Choose your poison. Kill more turkeys now with higher bag limits and risk losing the turkey hunting season altogether at some point...or kill fewer turkeys now and perhaps see turkey hunting continue longer into the future. BUT, if the problem of sustained population recruitment is not solved, turkey managers eventually have no choice but to implement measures to preserve the remaining population. The reduced bag limits and shortened seasons we are seeing in places are band-aid measures.
Posters have reasonably pointed out that lower bag limits and shortened seasons do not guarantee reduced harvest due to the factors already mentioned. The bag limit/season issue is relevant ONLY if it accompanied with also establishing a harvest quota (maximum number gobblers that will be allowed to be taken in a particular population). However, a lot more management effort is involved in implementing such measures.
Without a solution to the reproduction problem (in those areas that have it), we only need to look at what is already in place in many western states in big game management...lottery drawing across the board and/or quotas on harvest in specified units/areas. That is what is on the horizon for turkey hunting, as well, without solutions being found to sustain turkey numbers wherever they are hunted.
Good post. We are headed to reduced limits and quota hunts. Thinking we will have major habit improvements that will solve any population declines is a pipe dream.
As easy as it is to blame killing gobblers as a main reason for the population downturn, I kinda believe it isn't as big a factor as many think. Why? Glad you asked: Whatever the reason for the population drop, is decimating HEN recruitment as well. And that is hurting our population way more than gobbler hunting. Frankly, if your population is down and you're still killing hens ( even where legal) you are beyond help.... Anywho, one gobbler can breed many hens, this doesn't work the other way around. This is why even though some may argue I FIRMLY believe predation on eggs, poults, and the broody hen is a major reason,if not the main reason. This is coming from skunks, raccoons, possums, bobcats, coyotes, avian raptors ( I think this is a big one) and any other Turkey loving animal out there. I also believe an important reason that recruitment is down is absolutely deplorable wildlife management in modern timber practices. Bad habitat for nesting, breeding and just plain living. It doesn't help that these practices also favor the predators.
So, yes, to agree, we are heading to reduced access on top of our already reduced opportunity. This will come in the form of draw hunts etc. I personally would like to see all the toys and tech that make it easier to be successful as an answer, but sadly there are too much money and too many whom are unwilling to get out of their comfort zone ( and risk being unsuccessful...) to embrace it. Nothing personal against those methods, it's just that this isn't the 80s and 90s anymore. I mean, really?!? You think lottery hunts, draw hunts etc are better alternatives than making decoys, blinds, longer range shells/guns, e bikes, ridiculous regs, no required predator trapping a things of the past? Guys, I like to Turkey hunt/ I'll be happy to restrict myself on equipment in order to keep having the freedom to do so. Nothing personal, but Mr Joey and I certainly ( almost never) completely agree, but he is right. Draw hunts and Lotteries are OTW.....the only possible chance it has is to get some of these weekend warriors to stay home and popularity wane. Selfish? Yep- but I'm not talking about taking anybody's freedom to hunt- I'm just gonna make it a bit harder for some to post pics on their FB Page......
Anyway, my main point is whatever is killing our gobblers is killing our hens too. Reduced bag limits, shorter seasons and , yes, even changing how we hunt probably won't do much until a handle is got on the "real" reason numbers are down. Thanks for reading.
WOW that makes florida a bargain
Quote from: joey46 on August 30, 2023, 08:54:35 AM
It appears not all states share the same experts. Ohio and Tennessee come to mind. Ohio from 2 to 1. TN from 3 to 2. Down here in FL they hire a management company that give consistently glowing reports to FWC. When they finally have a seasons worth of actual harvest data from mandatory reporting it takes a FOIA request to get it. Hmm. Be more than happy to see FL with a one bird limit in the Osceola range. To think reduced limits and maybe shorter seasons won't help in a turkey population drop is false logic and IMO very selfish. Blaming the non-res while letting the residents shoot um up more a political move than a biological one.
The TN change was made by their commission AGAINST biologist recommendations. The bag limit drop was strictly political, not based on science. Which is a shame, but common in the world of state wildlife management.
In Ohio, according to their 2021 report, only 14% of hunters killed 2 turkey. Which accounted for 1781 birds. Of those, some would have been killed by other hunters. Some birds would have died of natural mortality. Ohio could have saved MORE birds by taking another route, eliminating jake harvest. Yeah, that is a reduction in opportunity, but it'd have a better chance of helping than dropping the bag limit. Jakes often have higher survival than adult gobblers in the off-season.
(https://i.imgur.com/6nvz1U0.png)
Just realized, you have to buy the $410 license. Plus the turkey permit fee. If you kill your first bird, then you have to buy another turkey permit. Rediculos.
:TrainWreck1:
Quote from: Louisiana Longbeard on September 01, 2023, 10:39:18 AM
Just realized, you have to buy the $410 license. Plus the turkey permit fee. If you kill your first bird, then you have to buy another turkey permit. Rediculos.
:TrainWreck1:
Yes it is. If the residents are happy then everyone is happy. I will add I've long thought that the non-res limit anywhere should be ONE. The resident limit anywhere should be TWO maximum. Treating the big birds like small game a disservice to all concerned. Trying to justify high limits while crying over diminishing populations a fools game. Simple math is simple math. Kill less this year then have a greater carry-over for next year. And the beat goes on.
I'm too lazy to read all the posts. I read the first and last page. Forgive me if this has been discussed. I feel when a state charges a set fee for a nonresident license, a resident of that state should pay reciprocal to hunt any other state as a nonresident.
This is America and we are Americans.
When one state skyrockets prices and conditions on nonresident it creates a haven for residents. In the deer hunting world iowa and kansas come to mind.
I love to hunt and work a job to make money to hunt and travel to hunt. When I pay 4x 5x or 10x the license fee of residentst o hunt a bordering state it stinks. I will pay the price but I don't have to like it.
Its simply supply and demand. Same could be said about lease prices, western big game hunting, etc. There are far more people looking for quality hunting than there is quality hunting available.
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Treat the big birds with the respect that they deserve. They are not a covey of quail or a brace of squirrel. Harvesting one good bird a season should satisfy anyone. If your state has a two bird limit consider yourself lucky. These days are quickly becoming a memory as they should be.
Mr Joey, once again, we find ourselves agreeing. As a traveling hunter some myself, I would be perfectly happy traveling to another state and taking only one gobbler. I just want to continue to have that option for a reasonable expenditure and not have " to wait in line for the chance". Spot on there for me. Also would be willing to go to a limit of one here at home if it would assure me that I could continue to hear them gobble and see them strut in all my years to go.
As stated though, I believe that they are gonna need more than bag limit reductions to continue to flourish.
As far as the ridiculous increase in NR tags? I'm kinda liking the idea of reciprocal pricing approach. If one state wants to be ridiculous then other states should raise the rates on the incoming tide of NR from that particular state. This one needs more consideration imo.
I live in a 1 bird state with limited opportunity. In a 7 week season I am allowed to hunt 17 days in the 2024 season. The season is divided up into 6 time periods of which the 1st five are 1 week long with final 6th period lasting 10 days. You must choose one time period from the 6 and if your tag isn't filled during the one of the 1st five periods you are allowed to hunt the last 10 day period. I can generally only hunt weekends with Friday included with my current work schedule. That gives me 6 days of hunting my home state next season without having to be absent from work if my schedule holds and I don't fill my tag. If I get lucky and fill my tag in my chosen time frame I will have hunted at most 3 days.
The season wasn't always this liberal. When I 1st started turkey hunting you were limited to 1 five day period and you had to enter a drawing of which you were generally only successfully drawn every 3rd year. In the mid 2000's the state did away with the drawing and allowed you to hunt one 7 day period with an over the counter tag. Just Recently the state allowed you to hunt the last period if you don't fill your tag in your chosen time period.
I know what limited opportunity is like as I have lived it. To make up for not being able to hunt in my home state early in my turkey hunting endeavors I started traveling to hunt. My passion/obsession for hunting gobblers did and still does not allow me to sit at home knowing there is season open somewhere. I have no choice in the matter. It's something I must do. It's who I am.
Now on to joey64's carryover argument. The average life expectancy of a female wild turkey is 3 years and for males it is 4. That info is straight from the NWTF website. That means on average there is possibly 3 seasons to harvest an adult gobbler before it dies from causes other than hunting. The thought of reduced limits and carryover being a significant factor in helping turkey numbers recover when a very small percentage of hunters fill there 3rd tag where available might be a little lacking. Of 3rd tags filled, how many of the gobblers would have survived to the next season? If it's a 2 year old odds are probably decent making it atleast 1 year. If it's a 3 year old the averages say he might make it to the next season but most likely wont. So for the most part a 2 year old gobbler has the potential to carry over one season, 2 if he's lucky. A 3 year old not so much.
Using deerhunter1984's numbers 1000 3rd tags were filled in Ms. of which, by using the averages, how many were 2 year olds that could possibly make it to the next season? 500? 750? Add in the another reduction for deerhunter1984's assumption that some of the original 1000 gobblers might have been taken by other hunters if the 3rd tag was not there to fill. The carryover number of 12 gobblers saved per county in Ms is getting smaller. By how much? Is it 7, 5, less?
If turkey populations are in such dire straights where hens aren't getting bred because of lack of access to gobblers by all means limit or even close the season. Will it help? Possibly if the reason for the downfall in populations is breeding related. If the reason for poor turkey populations is something other than a hens lack of access to gobblers than reducing limits of which a overwhelming majority of tags are not filled or even closing seasons will only prolong the inevitable for a little while. It will not solve the problem. Populations will continue to dwindle unless proper actions are taken. I'd venture to guess lack of available gobblers to breed hens is not the problem in most situations. As Gobblenut has eluded too recruitment is the answer. Hens with the proper habit and management to keep and add more hens to the landscape will be the solution.
In light of recent developments in research and observations it seems polt rearing cover maybe a big factor in the declines some areas are seeing across the country.
Another fact from the NWTF website states poor habitat for adult turkeys maybe affecting population declines as well. A major factor in the survival of an adult turkey depends on the distance it must travel from the roost during the day to find what it needs to survive. The further the turkey has to travel the more energy it has to expend leading to a less fit bird leaving it more vulnerable to disease and poor reproductive rates. It also is more likely to encounter predators in its extended travels resulting in higher predation rates.
Is it really a pipedream to think habitat can't be improved? Is it so hard to imagine land owners managing their properties to improve polt rearing habitat or turkey habitat in general? Word is getting out and land owners are becoming educated on how to provide proper habitat that will grow turkey numbers instead of just planting food to entice the dwindling local populations onto their property. They are also beginning to learn quality turkey habitat is also quality deer habitat. Local, state, and federal agencies need to be held to account for past mistakes and remove invasive mat forming grasses from excepted planting lists for erosion and water quality control. More Incentives can be put in place to help non hunting landowners manage their properties for the betterment of all ground nesting birds some of which are on the endangered species list.
Habitat reclamation and or improvement is possible with the appropriate frame of mind and the right people in place to make things happen. I have a feeling good things are going to come from Turkeys for Tomorrow. When definitive answers start to come back from the research they have already put in place I'm sure more focus will be put on solutions to the questions about what's going on with wild turkey populations.
If you believe the only course of action is too limit opportunity based on feel good assumtions that's your choice. Stand on the tallest soap box you can find and shout it out to the world. I have no problem with that, I don't believe it but hey, it's your opinion and you're allowed to have it. I do have problem with the insinuation that a person don't respect the animal or is selfish and greedy because he follows his passion and the science that says It's ok to do so.
"Go play golf" or fish crappie after you shoot your 1 gobbler if your so inclined. In the spring I'll be in the woods somewhere doing what I love.
I remember in the past people, knowing that I hunted, would ask "how did you do this year?". I would hope to reply "got a nice gobbler or got a nice deer". Don't ever recall it being a numbers game even back in good old days when a two bird limit was common most everywhere. If I could afford it I would be much more inclined to take one bird in three different states than three bids in any one area. Just me but when I hear of three bird state limits anywhere in this day and age the word "oink" pops into my mind. Some seem to be giving way too much credence to stats put out by state paid "experts". Seeing this in Florida as I type. This state still refuses to publicly disclose the totals from their new mandatory check systems. Honestly I'm way too old to worry about my turkey hunting in the 2030's. I'll stick with my contention that many of the birds not shot this year will be around to gobble next year. I hope to also be around to shoot one and maybe two in my home state but never make taking a Florida limit my ultimate goal. The big birds deserve better.
Maybe all state's need to go to higher licenses to price out some hunting pressure. As to a state's limit you guys may call me a pig but I really enjoyed the years I killed 6-8 toms in the states I hunted. I didn't try and kill them in same general areas. Now on to population/habitat issues, if we have a extremely dry year and have poults running around every where it seems like we must have sufficient habitat(unlike some organizations want you to believe). Wet poults and hens are easy targets for predators habitat or not. Some areas of the country I have visited don't have this problem and some areas are definitely over ran with predators hurting the population. Some areas are over hunted to the point all I see are a few jakes left on the landscape. And some areas and people think that they can't handle tag soup and have to shoot a jake to salvage the tags or to have a kill for a video. The easiest fix to hunting pressure/harvest would be to make all states have a one week season and it be the same week in every state, this may upset some traveling turkey hunters as it is not easy to kill multiple states if you only get to do it one week out of the year. State agencies and some organizations don't really care about the turkey as much as they do the loss of revenue they get this also doesn't help the turkey populations.