Assembly Bill A5728. This lead ban forbids the used of any ammo with more than 1% lead on all state lands plus NYC water sheds. It has passed in the Assembly and is thought to also pass in the Senate. If signed into law it will take effect in 2023 with no grandfather clause. Were in a race with California.
Now I see what you were talking about. Where do I go to voice opposition on this one?
Our State Senators. The rumor mill believes this will go through. It`s bad timing under the ammo shortage already upon us. But this does not concern the liberal progressive politician. It`s disguised as a bill to protect the environment. In reality it`s an assault on our 2nd Amendment. Good article on this in latest addition of New York Outdoor News.
Quote from: Old Timer on April 23, 2022, 08:21:20 PM
Our State Senators. The rumor mill believes this will go through. It`s bad timing under the ammo shortage already upon us. But this does not concern the liberal progressive politician. It`s disguised as a bill to protect the environment. In reality it`s an assault on our 2nd Amendment. Good article on this in latest addition of New York Outdoor News.
It is their intent to make it harder on us, this is clearly by design. I love this state, it is so beautiful in so many areas but our politicians are horrible. I will not obey this law.
Man i feel for you NY guys, that is some ridiculous stuff. Hopefully you can put a stop to this.
It is nothing but gun control under the guise of "enviromentalism"
IMO, it is just a matter of time before lead ammo is banned in many states for all types of hunting.
Might want to start thinking about switching to alternatives to lead for turkey, deer, etc.
Waterfowl hunters were initially opposed the switch to lead years ago, but now most are onboard. Same will eventually be true of other hunting groups IMHO...
Only if you have money to burn. Just another of many valid reasons to stay out of the Nanny State.
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 24, 2022, 10:01:20 AM
IMO, it is just a matter of time before lead ammo is banned in many states for all types of hunting.
Might want to start thinking about switching to alternatives to lead for turkey, deer, etc.
Waterfowl hunters were initially opposed the switch to lead years ago, but now most are onboard. Same will eventually be true of other hunting groups IMHO...
Most waterfowlers are definitely not on board, thus the rise and profileration of steel shot substitutes.
That was forced on the waterfowlers by what we now call"junk science" There is zero reason to ban lead for hunting purposes, it is just another lie by so called "environmentalists" to curtail hunting and shooting. Non-toxic shot is many times more expensive than lead, and will become more so in the future.
Smart state. They have about 6 conservation officers and they want to make more stupid laws. I can go out daily
and see guys taking endless short fish and no one to enforce. We have a no baiting or feeding law.
yet you can walk into any store and buy all the bait you want and put it out with no one ever around to enforce.
Whats there plan to enforce this one.
Quote from: mikejd on April 24, 2022, 11:14:25 AM
Smart state. They have about 6 conservation officers and they want to make more stupid laws. I can go out daily
and see guys taking endless short fish and no one to enforce. We have a no baiting or feeding law.
yet you can walk into any store and buy all the bait you want and put it out with no one ever around to enforce.
Whats there plan to enforce this one.
There isn't one. This State loves to make laws then rail on and destroy law enforcement. Pray for our 1st responders here their under a lot of pressure.
Quote from: the Ward on April 24, 2022, 11:03:16 AM
Most waterfowlers are definitely not on board, thus the rise and profileration of steel shot substitutes.
Most waterfowl hunters I know would not hunt with lead. YMMV...
Quote from: silvestris on April 24, 2022, 10:30:39 AM
Only if you have money to burn. Just another of many valid reasons to stay out of the Nanny State.
I'm not a fan of the nanny state either, just saying that I think the writing is on the wall for lead shot, regardless of how anyone on this forum feels about it.
Lead in soil/water, lead in condors/eagles eating deer/turkey carcasses, lead consumption by humans eating wild game - lots of reasons that this issue isn't going away in the future...
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 24, 2022, 01:19:01 PM
...the writing is on the wall for lead shot, regardless of how anyone on this forum feels about it.
Lead in soil/water, lead in condors/eagles eating deer/turkey carcasses, lead consumption by humans eating wild game - lots of reasons that this issue isn't going away in the future...
This... ^^^
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 24, 2022, 01:37:45 PM
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 24, 2022, 01:19:01 PM
...the writing is on the wall for lead shot, regardless of how anyone on this forum feels about it.
Lead in soil/water, lead in condors/eagles eating deer/turkey carcasses, lead consumption by humans eating wild game - lots of reasons that this issue isn't going away in the future...
This... ^^^
Especially in liberal controlled states
I'm not for it, but it'll happen in every state eventually.
Explain the "junk science" comment, please. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I would want to see information/studies/data that back that up.
Years and years ago there was a rumor lead shot would be banned on all federally controled land. Since I was planning on moving to western KY and spending time in both Land Between the Lakes and Ft. Campbell I started looking for turkey killer alternatives. I think Environmetals original "old white" Hevi was my choice at that time. Got me into the special turkey chokes and other ways to spend $$. It all seemed to work out. I could see getting the wrong political climate and having this "lead panic" spread to all National Forest. Be glad there are great lead free alternatives out there. The shell will always be the cheapest part of the game. Btw - I remember well when waterfowl hunters made the lead to steel switch. The early crying and constant talk about "steel shot crippling" almost got seasons canceled. Don't panic and keep pro lead arguments calm and reasonable.
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 24, 2022, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: silvestris on April 24, 2022, 10:30:39 AM
Only if you have money to burn. Just another of many valid reasons to stay out of the Nanny State.
I'm not a fan of the nanny state either, just saying that I think the writing is on the wall for lead shot, regardless of how anyone on this forum feels about it.
Lead in soil/water, lead in condors/eagles eating deer/turkey carcasses, lead consumption by humans eating wild game - lots of reasons that this issue isn't going away in the future...
With all due respect., nonsense.
Quote from: silvestris on April 24, 2022, 10:30:39 AM
Only if you have money to burn. Just another of many valid reasons to stay out of the Nanny State.
I`m taking this nanny state comment a little personal. No offence. This is my home. I have beloved family here, roots so to speak. I think any man could understand that. Something I love and just will not pull stakes on. Some day when the good Lord gives me a release I might move. This is beautiful country. If your state was turning blue would you fold so easy?
Quote from: joey46 on April 25, 2022, 03:09:17 AM
Years and years ago there was a rumor lead shot would be banned on all federally controled land. Since I was planning on moving to western KY and spending time in both Land Between the Lakes and Ft. Campbell I started looking for turkey killer alternatives. I think Environmetals original "old white" Hevi was my choice at that time. Got me into the special turkey chokes and other ways to spend $$. It all seemed to work out. I could see getting the wrong political climate and having this "lead panic" spread to all National Forest. Be glad there are great lead free alternatives out there. The shell will always be the cheapest part of the game. Btw - I remember well when waterfowl hunters made the lead to steel switch. The early crying and constant talk about "steel shot crippling" almost got seasons canceled. Don't panic and keep pro lead arguments calm and reasonable.
Most guys whine and cry about the recoil of a 3' 1-1/4 steel shot load, so i don't see them handling 1-5/8 lead "baby mags" anyways, even if they made lead legal again. The early steel loads really did suck, i was there at the beginning and shot them. There was no internet and no real source of info, save for outdoor magazines and word of mouth. When folks were able to start doing the forum thing, like we do here, that is when stuff began to change for the better. The ammo companies began to improve their products, choke manufactures sprang up, and people could share their results in real time. Today's steel loads are very effective within their constraints. Many guys were and still are bitter about the lead ban because it was built on a false premise. This line of thinking will lead to mandatory bans on non-biodegradeable ammo casings and wads next.It is coming folks, unless we fight this stuff tooth and nail. The Greenies are nuts and have hijacked sound environmental policies to push their political agenda.Have you priced steel ammo lately? It was always more expensive due to the components used. Standard lead target loads were sub $50 a case less than 2 years ago, now they average $100. What will a case of steel cost? A case of plain old steel 10 gauge waterfowl loads was around $200, now it is near $400. Even when the supply chain gets itself sorted out, these prices are not going down very much in the future. Most regular guys are not going to be able to afford to shoot very much, especially those that have young families. Less people buying hunting licenses, less sporting goods sold, lots less money going into state coffers and local conservation groups will have a greater more profound effect on wildlife than shooting some lead ammo will.Killing the goose that laid the golden egg never ends well. That is my opinion on it. I am not against steel shot, or lead shot substitutes, but the claim that wildlife was and is dying because of lead poisoning is pure bunk, and always was. Please don't take offense that i quoted you, it was not intended as a call out, i was just using the sentence about "steel shot crippling" for my jumping off point on no-tox shot.
Quote from: Old Timer on April 25, 2022, 09:52:33 AM
Quote from: silvestris on April 24, 2022, 10:30:39 AM
Only if you have money to burn. Just another of many valid reasons to stay out of the Nanny State.
I`m taking this nanny state comment a little personal. No offence. This is my home. I have beloved family here, roots so to speak. I think any man could understand that. Something I love and just will not pull stakes on. Some day when the good Lord gives me a release I might move. This is beautiful country. If your state was turning blue would you fold so easy?
Upstate N.Y. is a beautiful place. I have been through it several times for work, and met many nice
folks. Seen quite a bit of wildlife in my travels there, too. It is a shame guys like yourself have to put up with the state basically being run by N.Y.C. with
not much hope of being able to overcome their socialist edicts. That is happening in a lot of states nowadays unfortunately.
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 24, 2022, 10:01:20 AM
IMO, it is just a matter of time before lead ammo is banned in many states for all types of hunting.
Might want to start thinking about switching to alternatives to lead for turkey, deer, etc.
Waterfowl hunters were initially opposed the switch to lead years ago, but now most are onboard. Same will eventually be true of other hunting groups IMHO...
Onboard is awfully strong. Acceptance is far more accurate.
The huge difference is, is that with waterfowl, you have clubs and refuges without thousands of rounds being fired over the same area, and birds were eating and dying from eating lead "in some areas." In other words, there actually was a reason behind the madness.
Now remembering, that lead must be ingested to be dangerous, and it does NOT leach into soil or water... Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die? I would bet that the exact number is 0.00.
I have shot a lot of steel shot at ducks, and now at dove, quail, pheasant, etc. Steel shot duck loads have improved, but even with all the technology, they are not as effective as lead... For smaller game, with smaller shot, steel is awful (in my experience). Recoils far more, and is far less effective.
Quote from: Marc on April 25, 2022, 10:24:05 AM
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 24, 2022, 10:01:20 AM
IMO, it is just a matter of time before lead ammo is banned in many states for all types of hunting.
Might want to start thinking about switching to alternatives to lead for turkey, deer, etc.
Waterfowl hunters were initially opposed the switch to lead years ago, but now most are onboard. Same will eventually be true of other hunting groups IMHO...
Onboard is awfully strong. Acceptance is far more accurate.
The huge difference is, is that with waterfowl, you have clubs and refuges without thousands of rounds being fired over the same area, and birds were eating and dying from eating lead "in some areas." In other words, there actually was a reason behind the madness.
Now remembering, that lead must be ingested to be dangerous, and it does NOT leach into soil or water... Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die? I would bet that the exact number is 0.00.
I have shot a lot of steel shot at ducks, and now at dove, quail, pheasant, etc. Steel shot duck loads have improved, but even with all the technology, they are not as effective as lead... For smaller game, with smaller shot, steel is awful (in my experience). Recoils far more, and is far less effective.
Great post! :icon_thumright:
I hunt on a Rachel Carson refuge for deer and turkeys in the fall. It is shot gun or Bow only. They have this rule on their land. I see hunters there, but no where near as many as the public land. They are pricing people out of the sport. Copper Sabots and TSS loads aren't cheap. If you dont like their rule you have the option to hunt somewhere else.
Hopefully they(New York) wont price the hunter out of the sport so they have to hire people to come in and manage their over population problems. If you cant afford it you most likely cant afford to hunt somewhere else.
Re:non toxic China and Russia have almost all the tungsten. What does that tell you? As far as their own use China has imported tungsten rather than use their own resources. Economically beneficial for them in the long run.
Don't eagles eat a lot of fish? Does NY require non toxic fishing gear?
It's a anti gun/ammo motion disguised as some sort of enviro action , they will just keep on a Rollin ' it will be something else harmful in the future
I think lead sinkers are banned in some areas.
Quote from: Marc on April 25, 2022, 10:24:05 AM
Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die?
Links to a few studies below. I'm not a wildlife biologist so not sure how much lead an eagle or condor needs to eat before "eating enough to die", or how much the problem is deer bullets vs. shotgun pellets (though the North Dakota study suggests that for humans both bullets & pellets contribute). Regardless, IMO the general public increasingly isn't going to tolerate hunters' lead making its way into eagles, condors (and sometimes humans) when nontoxic alternatives exist:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban/
https://www.science.org/content/article/nearly-half-bald-eagles-have-lead-poisoning
https://news.ucsc.edu/2012/06/condors-and-lead.html
Here is a little blurb from the first article:
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested 736 people, mostly adults, in six North Dakota cities and found that those who ate wild game had 50 percent more lead in their blood than those who did not eat it. The lead exposure was highest among people who consumed not only venison, but also birds and other game, according to the study published last month in the journal Environmental Research."
I am very pro-hunting and have been hunting for over 40 years, but my view is that hunting is a privilege. We hunters have a social contract with the ~96% of Americans who don't hunt. If enough of them become anti-hunting we will lose our privilege or have it severely curtailed. YMMV...
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 25, 2022, 08:30:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 25, 2022, 10:24:05 AM
Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die?
Links to a few studies below. I'm not a wildlife biologist so not sure how much lead an eagle or condor needs to eat before "eating enough to die", or how much the problem is deer bullets vs. shotgun pellets (though the North Dakota study suggests that for humans both bullets & pellets contribute). Regardless, IMO the general public increasingly isn't going to tolerate hunters' lead making its way into eagles, condors (and sometimes humans) when nontoxic alternatives exist:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban/
https://www.science.org/content/article/nearly-half-bald-eagles-have-lead-poisoning
https://news.ucsc.edu/2012/06/condors-and-lead.html
Here is a little blurb from the first article:
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested 736 people, mostly adults, in six North Dakota cities and found that those who ate wild game had 50 percent more lead in their blood than those who did not eat it. The lead exposure was highest among people who consumed not only venison, but also birds and other game, according to the study published last month in the journal Environmental Research."
I am very pro-hunting and have been hunting for over 40 years, but my view is that hunting is a privilege. We hunters have a social contract with the ~96% of Americans who don't hunt. If enough of them become anti-hunting we will lose our privilege or have it severely curtailed. YMMV...
Several years back, I read, and even talked to many of the authors of many of these studies done...
On the human studies, what were the parameters, and how were they controlled? Remember, that many, if not most of these studies are being done under the leadership of liberally controlled universities...
On the pig studies... How were the animals being dispatched and with what type of ammunition?
A study showing that the percentage of blood/lead went up in hawks after hunting season... Forgot to mention that the hawks were migratory, and the same birds were not being studied.
The blood/lead levels of condors went up after the lead ban in California.
There are certainly some situations, in which non-toxic should be used... But for the vast majority of situations, the non-toxic push is not for the well-being of hunters or hunting.
Now... Smelting lead would be a good argument to stop producing lead ammunition, as there is no doubt that lead smelting can have some deleterious effects...
Gotta love them downstate NYC people that control the whole state...worried about the environment and a few hunter's lead pellets entering their watershed to NYC while they drink tap water through thousands of miles of lead pipes for years and let's not forget the other newly introduced anti-gun bill to "tax" each round of ammo while we are already taxed through the Robert/Pittman act...
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 25, 2022, 08:30:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 25, 2022, 10:24:05 AM
Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die?
Links to a few studies below. I'm not a wildlife biologist so not sure how much lead an eagle or condor needs to eat before "eating enough to die", or how much the problem is deer bullets vs. shotgun pellets (though the North Dakota study suggests that for humans both bullets & pellets contribute). Regardless, IMO the general public increasingly isn't going to tolerate hunters' lead making its way into eagles, condors (and sometimes humans) when nontoxic alternatives exist:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban/
https://www.science.org/content/article/nearly-half-bald-eagles-have-lead-poisoning
https://news.ucsc.edu/2012/06/condors-and-lead.html
Here is a little blurb from the first article:
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested 736 people, mostly adults, in six North Dakota cities and found that those who ate wild game had 50 percent more lead in their blood than those who did not eat it. The lead exposure was highest among people who consumed not only venison, but also birds and other game, according to the study published last month in the journal Environmental Research."
I am very pro-hunting and have been hunting for over 40 years, but my view is that hunting is a privilege. We hunters have a social contract with the ~96% of Americans who don't hunt. If enough of them become anti-hunting we will lose our privilege or have it severely curtailed.
Someone here gets it. Regardless of how we hunters view this issue, the decision-making process does not lie in the hands of the 3-5% of the population that hunts. Roughly 80% of the citizenry of this country support hunting,...when done in a manner that they find acceptable and with a consciousness towards those factors that are detrimental to the ecosystem.
The lead issue is not something that is new. Decades ago, lead in paint was banned because it was recognized that it was dangerous to human/animal health if ingested. We could logically have asked ourselves how many people are eating lead paint such that it is a real problem? For 99.99% of the population, it would never be an issue, but for that .001%,...mostly considered to be children that might accidently chew on something with lead paint in it,...it was a real, valid concern.
The lead concern with ammunition is no different. True, 99.99% of the time, it might not be an issue for wildlife or humans. The question, though, is there an alternative for using lead in ammunition that would totally eliminate any concerns about lead poisoning? The answer to that is "yes, there is",...other metals, whether they be more costly to those who use them, or not.
This is not some sort of political issue either. Across society, we humans try to progress towards making our lives safer. When a safety/health hazard is recognized, we tend to try to resolve it. The issue of lead poisoning is just one of a myriad of issues that fit that puzzle. Hunters should recognize this and not try to turn it into something it is not.
Finally, yes, there are those anti-gun/anti-hunting folks that strive to make this an issue to make the general public turn against us. We do not do ourselves any favors by bowing-up and denying that lead is a problem. It is. We should recognize that, and seek alternatives that are safer for humans, animals, and the environment in general.
...Again, that is the view from here...
Your view is hunting is a privilege? "social contract"? Those are some mighty fine buzzwords that tell me everything i need to know. How about guns? You think those are a privilege too? "environmentalists" are not conservationist, not by a long shot. Wildlife is not dying due to lead shot ingestion. People are not getting raised lead levels from eating deer shot with lead bullets. It is all manipulated data, and laughable.
We should just cover ourselves in bubble-wrap and sit on the couch, that's safe. And if we are really good
maybe they will up our chocolate ration by a gram. Oh well, i'm out of this discussion, no good can come from it now.
Maine just had this same BS on the table. Lucky for Mainers they where smart enough to know its all bs and shut it down.
If you just read this bill you know thwy don't really have conservation in mind. If they did this would not be limited to state land and NYS water sheds. This only makes up a small portion of the state so are they really concerned about wildlife at all or is it just a feel good bill that they love so much.
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2021/A5728
For you guys who want to vote against it.
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 26, 2022, 08:16:06 AM
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 25, 2022, 08:30:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 25, 2022, 10:24:05 AM
Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die?
Links to a few studies below. I'm not a wildlife biologist so not sure how much lead an eagle or condor needs to eat before "eating enough to die", or how much the problem is deer bullets vs. shotgun pellets (though the North Dakota study suggests that for humans both bullets & pellets contribute). Regardless, IMO the general public increasingly isn't going to tolerate hunters' lead making its way into eagles, condors (and sometimes humans) when nontoxic alternatives exist:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban/
https://www.science.org/content/article/nearly-half-bald-eagles-have-lead-poisoning
https://news.ucsc.edu/2012/06/condors-and-lead.html
Here is a little blurb from the first article:
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested 736 people, mostly adults, in six North Dakota cities and found that those who ate wild game had 50 percent more lead in their blood than those who did not eat it. The lead exposure was highest among people who consumed not only venison, but also birds and other game, according to the study published last month in the journal Environmental Research."
I am very pro-hunting and have been hunting for over 40 years, but my view is that hunting is a privilege. We hunters have a social contract with the ~96% of Americans who don't hunt. If enough of them become anti-hunting we will lose our privilege or have it severely curtailed.
Someone here gets it. Regardless of how we hunters view this issue, the decision-making process does not lie in the hands of the 3-5% of the population that hunts. Roughly 80% of the citizenry of this country support hunting,...when done in a manner that they find acceptable and with a consciousness towards those factors that are detrimental to the ecosystem.
The lead issue is not something that is new. Decades ago, lead in paint was banned because it was recognized that it was dangerous to human/animal health if ingested. We could logically have asked ourselves how many people are eating lead paint such that it is a real problem? For 99.99% of the population, it would never be an issue, but for that .001%,...mostly considered to be children that might accidently chew on something with lead paint in it,...it was a real, valid concern.
The lead concern with ammunition is no different. True, 99.99% of the time, it might not be an issue for wildlife or humans. The question, though, is there an alternative for using lead in ammunition that would totally eliminate any concerns about lead poisoning? The answer to that is "yes, there is",...other metals, whether they be more costly to those who use them, or not.
This is not some sort of political issue either. Across society, we humans try to progress towards making our lives safer. When a safety/health hazard is recognized, we tend to try to resolve it. The issue of lead poisoning is just one of a myriad of issues that fit that puzzle. Hunters should recognize this and not try to turn it into something it is not.
Finally, yes, there are those anti-gun/anti-hunting folks that strive to make this an issue to make the general public turn against us. We do not do ourselves any favors by bowing-up and denying that lead is a problem. It is. We should recognize that, and seek alternatives that are safer for humans, animals, and the environment in general.
...Again, that is the view from here...
couldn't agree more. this is also why as much as increasing hunting pressure sucks, the more people in the woods with guns in their hands the better off not only hunting rights, but also America in general will be
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 26, 2022, 08:16:06 AM
Someone here gets it. Regardless of how we hunters view this issue, the decision-making process does not lie in the hands of the 3-5% of the population that hunts. Roughly 80% of the citizenry of this country support hunting,...when done in a manner that they find acceptable and with a consciousness towards those factors that are detrimental to the ecosystem.
The lead issue is not something that is new. Decades ago, lead in paint was banned because it was recognized that it was dangerous to human/animal health if ingested. We could logically have asked ourselves how many people are eating lead paint such that it is a real problem? For 99.99% of the population, it would never be an issue, but for that .001%,...mostly considered to be children that might accidently chew on something with lead paint in it,...it was a real, valid concern.
The lead concern with ammunition is no different. True, 99.99% of the time, it might not be an issue for wildlife or humans. The question, though, is there an alternative for using lead in ammunition that would totally eliminate any concerns about lead poisoning? The answer to that is "yes, there is",...other metals, whether they be more costly to those who use them, or not.
This is not some sort of political issue either. Across society, we humans try to progress towards making our lives safer. When a safety/health hazard is recognized, we tend to try to resolve it. The issue of lead poisoning is just one of a myriad of issues that fit that puzzle. Hunters should recognize this and not try to turn it into something it is not.
Finally, yes, there are those anti-gun/anti-hunting folks that strive to make this an issue to make the general public turn against us. We do not do ourselves any favors by bowing-up and denying that lead is a problem. It is. We should recognize that, and seek alternatives that are safer for humans, animals, and the environment in general.
...Again, that is the view from here...
A few things...
As California was going to all non-toxic for hunting I read quite a few articles on the detriments of lead shot... The research methods were suspect at best, and I have yet to read any research that shows causation... And it appeared that many authors purposely confused correlation with causation.
I managed to track down and actually speak to two different authors... One was willing to speak openly, and admitted the flaws in the research done (a paper about hawks having increased blood/lead levels after hunting season, failing to mention that these hawks were migratory). He was not anti-hunting, but admittedly not pro-hunting either. He was pleasant and informative...
Second author (different research) told me, he did not care how it was done, he wanted hunting ended....
In reading multiple studies done on the detriments of lead (after it was banned for duck hunting), I have yet to read a study that followed the accepted scientific method for publication. Biased studies with suspect methods of research, that more often than not show potential correlation with no proof at all of causation.
And after the studies showing condors with high lead/blood levels, all lead hunting was banned in their area... And the lead/blood levels went up after the ban... Which to my understanding, to some degree lead to the statewide ban of lead for hunting here. (The original lead ban incorperated a much, much larger area than the actual condor area)
Also remember, that due to the velocity, rifle bullets are more likely to cause lead issues with humans... The velocity of the bullet causes some degree of lead shrapnel/fragmentation in the meat... If eating an area of meat next to the bullet wound, you are likely to get some particulate lead...
Shotgun pellets are fired at far slower velocities and do not fragment upon impact... You actually have to eat the lead pellet (which does not fragment) to cause lead poisoning.
Also consider the increased cost of non-toxic ammuntion, and the frequently decreased availability of such ammunition. The cost is not an issue for turkey hunting where sevaral rounds are being fired yearly, but in high volume shooting such as dove or duck hunting, that cost starts to hit home... And shooting copper bullets from a .22 is no longer affordable family fun.
Lots of things to consider... Health of the environment, health of wildlife, health of society eating game.
We also have to remember that hunting is the single largest contributor to conservation, and that loosing hunters and hunting will have a negative impact on wildlife management and habitat as a whole.
Also, making the cost of hunting so high that the average person cannot afford it, or the ammunition so difficult to acquire that hunters do not have access to it.
Hunters and the hunting community should be the stewards of the sport. So, if lead is causing issues for safety for game or people, I would not oppose regulation. But the studies NEED to be done by less biased organizations and under more stringent scientific methods.
I would love to see hunting organizations funding research into lead as well... Organizations such as NTF, Quail Forever, DU, CWE, RMEF, etc...
I am NOT saying that we should not have more lead regulations... I am saying that those regulations should be based on actual science, and not a media controlled anti-hunting pseudo-research narratives, that will vastly reduce hunter numbers.
Quote from: the Ward on April 26, 2022, 09:02:13 AM
Your view is hunting is a privilege? "social contract"? Those are some mighty fine buzzwords that tell me everything i need to know. How about guns? You think those are a privilege too?
The 2nd Amendment at the federal level protects infringement upon our "right to keep and bear arms."
However, hunting for turkey/deer is controlled at the state and local level and is definitely a privilege IMO, and can change at the whim of the majority of voters/legislators in any given state (especially since 96% of them don't hunt). Hence, a social contract - our fellow citizens of our state give us the right to hunt and can also take away our right to hunt...
That's why it's important for us hunters that hunting continues to be viewed positively by the majority of non-hunters...