NYS Proposed lead ammo ban

[joey46]

Years and years ago there was a rumor lead shot would be banned on all federally controled land.  Since I was planning on moving to western KY and spending time in both Land Between the Lakes and Ft. Campbell I started looking for turkey killer alternatives.  I think Environmetals original "old white" Hevi was my choice at that time.  Got me into the special turkey chokes and other ways to spend $$.  It all seemed to work out.  I could see getting the wrong political climate and having this "lead panic" spread to all National Forest.  Be glad there are great lead free alternatives out there.  The shell will always be the cheapest part of the game.  Btw - I remember well when waterfowl hunters made the lead to steel switch.  The early crying and constant talk about "steel shot crippling" almost got seasons canceled.  Don't panic and keep pro lead arguments calm and reasonable. 

[the Ward]

Only if you have money to burn.  Just another of many valid reasons to stay out of the Nanny State.

I'm not a fan of the nanny state either, just saying that I think the writing is on the wall for lead shot, regardless of how anyone on this forum feels about it.

Lead in soil/water, lead in condors/eagles eating deer/turkey carcasses, lead consumption by humans eating wild game - lots of reasons that this issue isn't going away in the future...

With all due respect., nonsense.

[Old Timer]

Only if you have money to burn.  Just another of many valid reasons to stay out of the Nanny State.

I`m taking this nanny state comment a little personal. No offence. This is my home. I have beloved family here, roots so to speak. I think any man could understand that. Something I love and just will not pull stakes on. Some day when the good Lord gives me a release I might move. This is beautiful country. If your state was turning blue would you fold so easy?

[the Ward]

Years and years ago there was a rumor lead shot would be banned on all federally controled land.  Since I was planning on moving to western KY and spending time in both Land Between the Lakes and Ft. Campbell I started looking for turkey killer alternatives.  I think Environmetals original "old white" Hevi was my choice at that time.  Got me into the special turkey chokes and other ways to spend $$.  It all seemed to work out.  I could see getting the wrong political climate and having this "lead panic" spread to all National Forest.  Be glad there are great lead free alternatives out there.  The shell will always be the cheapest part of the game.  Btw - I remember well when waterfowl hunters made the lead to steel switch.  The early crying and constant talk about "steel shot crippling" almost got seasons canceled.  Don't panic and keep pro lead arguments calm and reasonable. 

Most guys whine and cry about the recoil of a 3' 1-1/4 steel shot load, so i don't see them handling 1-5/8 lead "baby mags" anyways, even if they made lead legal again. The early steel loads really did suck, i was there at the beginning and shot them. There was no internet and no real source of info, save for outdoor magazines and word of mouth. When folks were able to start doing the forum thing, like we do here, that is when stuff began to change for the better. The ammo companies began to improve their products, choke manufactures sprang up, and people could share their results in real time. Today's steel loads are very effective within their constraints. Many guys were and still are bitter about the lead ban because it was built on a false premise. This line of thinking will lead to mandatory bans on non-biodegradeable ammo casings and wads next.It is coming folks, unless we fight this stuff tooth and nail. The Greenies are nuts and have hijacked sound environmental policies to push their political agenda.Have you priced steel ammo lately? It was always more expensive due to the components used. Standard lead target loads were sub $50 a case less than 2 years ago, now they average $100. What will a case of steel cost? A case of plain old steel 10 gauge waterfowl loads was around $200, now it is near $400. Even when the supply chain gets itself sorted out, these prices are not going down very much in the future. Most regular guys are not going to be able to afford to shoot very much, especially those that have young families. Less people buying hunting licenses, less sporting goods sold, lots less money going into state coffers and local conservation groups will have a greater more profound effect on wildlife than shooting some lead ammo will.Killing the goose that laid the golden egg never ends well. That is my opinion on it. I am not against steel shot, or lead shot substitutes, but the claim that wildlife was and is dying because of lead poisoning is pure bunk, and always was. Please don't take offense that i quoted you, it was not intended as a call out, i was just using the sentence about "steel shot crippling" for my jumping off point on no-tox shot.

[the Ward]

Only if you have money to burn.  Just another of many valid reasons to stay out of the Nanny State.

I`m taking this nanny state comment a little personal. No offence. This is my home. I have beloved family here, roots so to speak. I think any man could understand that. Something I love and just will not pull stakes on. Some day when the good Lord gives me a release I might move. This is beautiful country. If your state was turning blue would you fold so easy?

Upstate N.Y. is a beautiful place. I have been through it several times for work, and met many nice
folks. Seen quite a bit of wildlife in my travels there, too. It is a shame guys like yourself have to put up with the state  basically being run by N.Y.C. with
not much hope of being able to overcome their socialist edicts. That is happening in a lot of states nowadays unfortunately.

[Marc]

IMO, it is just a matter of time before lead ammo is banned in many states for all types of hunting.

Might want to start thinking about switching to alternatives to lead for turkey, deer, etc.

Waterfowl hunters were initially opposed the switch to lead years ago, but now most are onboard.  Same will eventually be true of other hunting groups IMHO...

Onboard is awfully strong.  Acceptance is far more accurate.

The huge difference is, is that with waterfowl, you have clubs and refuges without  thousands of rounds being fired over the same area, and birds were eating and dying from eating lead "in some areas."  In other words, there actually was a reason behind the madness.

Now remembering, that lead must be ingested to be dangerous, and it does NOT leach into soil or water...  Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die?  I would bet that the exact number is 0.00.

I have shot a lot of steel shot at ducks, and now at dove, quail, pheasant, etc.  Steel shot duck loads have improved, but even with all the technology, they are not as effective as lead...  For smaller game, with smaller shot, steel is awful (in my experience).  Recoils far more, and is far less effective.

[the Ward]

IMO, it is just a matter of time before lead ammo is banned in many states for all types of hunting.

Might want to start thinking about switching to alternatives to lead for turkey, deer, etc.

Waterfowl hunters were initially opposed the switch to lead years ago, but now most are onboard.  Same will eventually be true of other hunting groups IMHO...

Onboard is awfully strong.  Acceptance is far more accurate.


The huge difference is, is that with waterfowl, you have clubs and refuges without  thousands of rounds being fired over the same area, and birds were eating and dying from eating lead "in some areas."  In other words, there actually was a reason behind the madness.

Now remembering, that lead must be ingested to be dangerous, and it does NOT leach into soil or water...  Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die?  I would bet that the exact number is 0.00.

I have shot a lot of steel shot at ducks, and now at dove, quail, pheasant, etc.  Steel shot duck loads have improved, but even with all the technology, they are not as effective as lead...  For smaller game, with smaller shot, steel is awful (in my experience).  Recoils far more, and is far less effective.

Great post! 

[maineute]

I hunt on a Rachel Carson refuge  for deer and turkeys in the fall. It is shot gun or Bow only. They have this rule on their land. I see hunters there, but no where near as many as the public land. They are pricing people out of the sport. Copper Sabots and TSS loads aren't cheap. If you dont like their rule you have the option to hunt somewhere else.
Hopefully they(New York) wont price the hunter out of the sport so they have to hire people to come in and manage their over population problems. If you cant afford it you most likely cant afford to hunt somewhere else.

[Turkeyman]

Re:non toxic China and Russia have almost all the tungsten. What does that tell you? As far as their own use China has imported tungsten rather than use their own resources. Economically beneficial for them in the long run.

[tracker vi]

Don't eagles eat a lot of fish? Does NY require non toxic fishing gear?

[Old Gobbler]

It's a anti gun/ammo motion disguised as some sort of enviro action , they will just keep on a Rollin ' it will be something else harmful in the future

[joey46]

I think lead sinkers are banned in some areas.

[PNWturkey]

Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die?

Links to a few studies below.  I'm not a wildlife biologist so not sure how much lead an eagle or condor needs to eat before "eating enough to die", or how much the problem is deer bullets vs. shotgun pellets (though the North Dakota study suggests that for humans both bullets & pellets contribute).  Regardless, IMO the general public increasingly isn't going to tolerate hunters' lead making its way into eagles, condors (and sometimes humans) when nontoxic alternatives exist:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban/

https://www.science.org/content/article/nearly-half-bald-eagles-have-lead-poisoning

https://news.ucsc.edu/2012/06/condors-and-lead.html

Here is a little blurb from the first article:
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested 736 people, mostly adults, in six North Dakota cities and found that those who ate wild game had 50 percent more lead in their blood than those who did not eat it. The lead exposure was highest among people who consumed not only venison, but also birds and other game, according to the study published last month in the journal Environmental Research."

I am very pro-hunting and have been hunting for over 40 years, but my view is that hunting is a privilege.  We hunters have a social contract with the ~96% of Americans who don't hunt.  If enough of them become anti-hunting we will lose our privilege or have it severely curtailed.  YMMV...

[Marc]

Explain to me what critters are finding the lead pellets from my shotgun in the foothills after I fire at a turkey or quail, and what the odds are of any animal finding and eating enough to die?

Links to a few studies below.  I'm not a wildlife biologist so not sure how much lead an eagle or condor needs to eat before "eating enough to die", or how much the problem is deer bullets vs. shotgun pellets (though the North Dakota study suggests that for humans both bullets & pellets contribute).  Regardless, IMO the general public increasingly isn't going to tolerate hunters' lead making its way into eagles, condors (and sometimes humans) when nontoxic alternatives exist:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban/

https://www.science.org/content/article/nearly-half-bald-eagles-have-lead-poisoning

https://news.ucsc.edu/2012/06/condors-and-lead.html

Here is a little blurb from the first article:
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested 736 people, mostly adults, in six North Dakota cities and found that those who ate wild game had 50 percent more lead in their blood than those who did not eat it. The lead exposure was highest among people who consumed not only venison, but also birds and other game, according to the study published last month in the journal Environmental Research."

I am very pro-hunting and have been hunting for over 40 years, but my view is that hunting is a privilege.  We hunters have a social contract with the ~96% of Americans who don't hunt.  If enough of them become anti-hunting we will lose our privilege or have it severely curtailed.  YMMV...

Several years back, I read, and even talked to many of the authors of many of these studies done...

On the human studies, what were the parameters, and how were they controlled?  Remember, that many, if not most of these studies are being done under the leadership of liberally controlled universities... 

On the pig studies...  How were the animals being dispatched and with what type of ammunition?

A study showing that the percentage of blood/lead went up in hawks after hunting season...  Forgot to mention that the hawks were migratory, and the same birds were not being studied.

The blood/lead levels of condors went up after the lead ban in California.

There are certainly some situations, in which non-toxic should be used...  But for the vast majority of situations, the non-toxic push is not for the well-being of hunters or hunting.

Now...  Smelting lead would be a good argument to stop producing lead ammunition, as there is no doubt that lead smelting can have some deleterious effects...

[tracker#1]

Gotta love them downstate NYC people that control the whole state...worried about the environment and a few hunter's lead pellets entering their watershed to NYC while they drink tap water through thousands of miles of lead pipes for years and let's not forget the other newly introduced anti-gun bill to "tax" each round of ammo while we are already taxed through the Robert/Pittman act...