"Wild turkeys are the only gamebird hunted almost exclusively during their spring breeding season. The statewide average for peak nest initiation in Alabama is the second week in April, and most of the state's spring turkey hunting season opens nearly a month prior to this peak. Every season, over 43% of our total season harvest occurs before April 1, well before peak nest initiation. Ongoing research suggests moving the season opening toward peak nest initiation date to maximize the potential for gobblers to breed with hens prior to harvest. Maximizing opportunities for breeding is extremely important, particularly when populations are declining."
Thoughts on States Pushing Season Start Dates BACK to align with breeding/nesting???
They did this in the area where i usually hunt. The state wide season opens a week or two before
us. They just started doing this a couple years ago, so i'm not sure yet if it is helping. Hope that it will!
The problem is too many people hunting a finite resource, along with a few other factors such as habitat, predators and nefarious methods of "hunting".
Many states have the pushed back season start dates that you describe.
Here is a map that I made for 2021:
Arkansas used to have an April 1st opening or at least first Saturday in April - we have had days reduced and season backed up for the reasons you have explained - we just opened Monday April 18th- this has been going on a couple years now- other states are starting to do the same thing - I think it's probably sound biology but we haven't seen much results of this effort in my opinion- they will most likely drop bag limit back as is proposed next year from 2 to 1 - I see this trend affecting a lot of states
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 20, 2022, 12:02:39 PM
Many states have the pushed back season start dates that you describe.
Here is a map that I made for 2021:
That map isnt correct. Kansas has folks start April 1 with youth and disabled. Then archery starts April 8th.
I do find it somewhat funny that when our season ran the 2nd wednesday in april to May 15th we had birds. Then we really liberalized seasons spring and fall and bird numbers have decreased since.
Georgia started this season a week later on private and 2 weeks on public.
I don't much care for the new rule and if their goal was to protect gobblers, IMO they should have left the limits and dates for residents the same and either have a quota for NRs or open it up to NR 2-3 weeks later and lower their limit to one.
Again, too many people. When the illegals start hunting them, it will be a total goat rodeo.
I'm for it in some locations. I'd also like to see KY go back to a weekday opener and 1 pm cut off for the first week of the season.
Seems to me that opening season on private earlier will only compound the problem on public. People that have it will hunt the private, then hit public for another opener. So far pushing the season back hasn't seemed to help AR.
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I live in E. Texas, eastern turkey country. Latitude wise, I'm about even with S. Alabama. My season opens 04/22. It's pretty late in the breeding cycle but they are still gobbling the first week in May. They are beginning to lose interest by that time, but it's better than closing the season completely, like they have done in most of the surrounding counties.
So you guys in MO, IL, IA....you will still be good in your hunting opening now. You will be able to find and work birds, I promise.
Quote from: silvestris on April 20, 2022, 10:14:46 PM
Again, too many people. When the illegals start hunting them, it will be a total goat rodeo.
Why don't you do your part, and give up turkey hunting? For the good of the species?
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Louisiana moved our season, opening now in April.
Forever it opened the 3rd week of March. Always remember because it was always around my parents anniversary.
When they 1st moved it, I thought that I was going to have a heart attack. Called our Chapter President to raise Cain. But he explained the reasoning very well. We were killing all of our Longbeards before they could breed. Which is not good at all. I have seen more Longbeards as a result.
Have a good one
Bo
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I have heard or seen people on podcasts and forums bellyaching about moving the seasons back...and yes, as a turkey hunter, it sucks. But if we want turkeys to hunt tomorrow, today we have to make some moves and sacrifices. I am encouraged by states willing to take action, and not all of what they will do stand the test of time, but I sure am rooting for the turkeys.
Pennsylvania has always had a later start date, set to occur after the majority of hens were bred.
Many other States started the season during the peak of breeding or before.
PA had a massive turkey boom in the 90's and early 2000's even though our hunter numbers were at an all time high, and I believe many of the early start States saw this same boom.
So I believe it's a good thing to bump seasons back to after peak breeding, but obviously there is something else knocking down the population on nearly a nationwide scale.
Look at States like Connecticut, Vermont, and Maine with a booming population right now even though they have the same start dates as Pa with a more Northern latitude.
And we are all in the same boat with fur prices in the crapper, increased ground and aerial predators.......so something else is going on.
We also hear about habitat loss, but turkeys will thrive in small urban woodlots all across the country.
Hopefully this widespread population downturn is a result of disease or neonics or something else that can be controlled and possibly move on from this.
NJ pushed the opener later by one week. We will see how this works out in the long run. Hopefully it allows more hens to get bred.
Quote from: nativeks on April 20, 2022, 06:48:29 PM
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 20, 2022, 12:02:39 PM
Many states have the pushed back season start dates that you describe.
Here is a map that I made for 2021:
That map isnt correct. Kansas has folks start April 1 with youth and disabled. Then archery starts April 8th.
I do find it somewhat funny that when our season ran the 2nd wednesday in april to May 15th we had birds. Then we really liberalized seasons spring and fall and bird numbers have decreased since.
The map is for general season start dates.
I think it would get too complicated to add youth season, archery, etc.
Plus, arguably the small number of gobblers killed during youth season would not significantly affect overall breeding...
Quote from: Number17 on April 21, 2022, 08:31:41 AM
We also hear about habitat loss, but turkeys will thrive in small urban woodlots all across the country.
I'm on the same page with you about the "habitat loss" theory.
Obviously turkeys need habitat (food/water/roosting/brood rearing/etc.), but they can thrive in some pretty surprising human-altered environments!
For example, this photo is from a few weeks ago, around the corner from my house.
I wish I lived in that neighborhood. That is awesome!
Quote from: Number17 on April 21, 2022, 08:31:41 AM
Look at States like Connecticut, Vermont, and Maine with a booming population right now even though they have the same start dates as Pa with a more Northern latitude.
And we are all in the same boat with fur prices in the crapper, increased ground and aerial predators.......so something else is going on.
We also hear about habitat loss, but turkeys will thrive in small urban woodlots all across the country.
Hopefully this widespread population downturn is a result of disease or neonics or something else that can be controlled and possibly move on from this.
Having lived in Connecticut for 16 years I would have to disagree about there being a booming population. From what I have seen numbers, at least in the eastern half of the state, have dropped significantly in that time. For some reason I can't figure out they increased tags and moved the start date from early May to the last week in April.
I hope all of you guys that agree with the loss of season and limits realize that 99% of the time when the state(s) reduce seasons and limits, if the population booms again, you will NOT get back anything that was lost.
Quote from: johnski on April 21, 2022, 12:48:48 PM
Quote from: Number17 on April 21, 2022, 08:31:41 AM
Look at States like Connecticut, Vermont, and Maine with a booming population right now even though they have the same start dates as Pa with a more Northern latitude.
And we are all in the same boat with fur prices in the crapper, increased ground and aerial predators.......so something else is going on.
We also hear about habitat loss, but turkeys will thrive in small urban woodlots all across the country.
Hopefully this widespread population downturn is a result of disease or neonics or something else that can be controlled and possibly move on from this.
Having lived in Connecticut for 16 years I would have to disagree about there being a booming population. From what I have seen numbers, at least in the eastern half of the state, have dropped significantly in that time. For some reason I can't figure out they increased tags and moved the start date from early May to the last week in April.
I've had trouble understanding all the regulation changes in CT in recent years. Based on the data over the past several years (harvests, poult surveys, etc.) CT turkey populations has been stable to slightly decreasing of late. Why they would choose to enact these changes (combining/increasing state/private bag limits, allowing all day hunting, combining turkey tags with pheasant tags, etc.) when they already had data showing a population decrease is beyond me. Never got a decent answer from the state biologist for the aformentioned changes.
Best guess is the legislators push for increased limits to try to cut down on urban "problem turkeys".
From my experience, the season opening is pretty decent. With only a handful of days open in April as opposed to opening on the 1st, I'm not sure how much of a negative impact on breeding those few days have. Since we never get the last week of May I wouldn't be opposed to shifting it later though especially if it helped reducing breeding disturbance. Here em blowing it it up the first week of June when fishing almost every year.
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I think it would help and, if that's the case, I'm all for it. Moving the seasons back (in the states that aren't already) to align with the science seems like a no-brainer, if we're taking our feelings out of it and just being logical. As much as I like to shoot them, I'm at the point where I'm more concerned about my boys being able to still chase them 10-20 years from now.
I'd like them to be more proactive with it honestly. I read Dr. Chamberlin's presentation to the Alabama Advisory board and while they did make an adjustment (this was in 2020 prior to the change we saw take effect this year), they took a step but it was a small one. His recommendation for this area (Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana, etc), based on the research, was a Mid-April start date but they moved it to April 1 for public and March 25th on private.
This isn't from Dr. Chamberlin but a quote I found addressing the same issue:
"Wild turkeys are the only gamebird hunted almost exclusively during their spring breeding season. The statewide average for peak nest initiation in Alabama is the second week in April, and most of the state's spring turkey hunting season opens nearly a month prior to this peak. Every season, over 43% of our total season harvest occurs before April 1, well before peak nest initiation. Ongoing research suggests moving the season opening toward peak nest initiation date to maximize the potential for gobblers to breed with hens prior to harvest."
I feel habitat and weather are the single largest factors in breeding success.
I would think that population comparisons between public areas and non-hunted private areas could be used to assess population trends and potential differences in decreased hunting pressure.
You take an animal that's not that hard to kill to begin with, then increase pressure, reduce habitat and deploy tactics to make them even easier to kill! What could possibly go wrong? I start seeing breeding in mid to late February every year. I saw my first poults of the year this week. I don't think moving the starting dates back are going to correct the trend we are seeing. In my opinion they're chasing the wrong rabbit.
States might as well go to a fall gobbler only season!
Quote from: Marc on April 22, 2022, 06:12:15 PM
I feel habitat and weather are the single largest factors in breeding success.
I would think that population comparisons between public areas and non-hunted private areas could be used to assess population trends and potential differences in decreased hunting pressure.
I've definitely hunted both lightly hunted/well managed private and also public that gets hammered. There's a stark difference in the number of birds. Same concept as when you are able to get away from pressure on public land(it's harder to do now than even when I moved to bama 10 years ago). Popular spots (easy access) public spots vs spots that don't get much pressure, you can tell a noticeable difference. Not just in gobbling activity but just bird numbers (talking hens, jakes, and gobblers) and turkey sign in general...the habitat is largely the same in the areas I'm comparing.
Quote from: guesswho on April 22, 2022, 06:26:39 PM
You take an animal that's not that hard to kill to begin with, then increase pressure, reduce habitat and deploy tactics to make them even easier to kill! What could possibly go wrong? I start seeing breeding in mid to late February every year. I saw my first poults of the year this week. I don't think moving the starting dates back are going to correct the trend we are seeing. In my opinion they're chasing the wrong rabbit.
Supply and Demand- the supply isn't increasing and the demand is.
I don't think that moving the season dates back is a magic bullet but I think it could help. I think to really do it right its going to take things like this (maximizing the breeding opportunities), habitat improvement, predator management (meaning a sincere focused effort, at the right time of year, not JUST shooting one if it happens across your path), stop shooting jakes (need them to breed and, according to the science, can't until their 2nd year), and less demand (harvest numbers reduced). The problem with just reducing the bag limit is that there aren't that many people running around killing 4 every season....what there IS a lot more of, over the last 10 years IMO, is a lot of people killing 1 or 2. I think turkey hunting has gotten much more popular and that's played a role- certainly on public land.
Agree on all points.
Quote from: guesswho on April 22, 2022, 06:26:39 PM
You take an animal that's not that hard to kill to begin with, then increase pressure, reduce habitat and deploy tactics to make them even easier to kill! What could possibly go wrong? I start seeing breeding in mid to late February every year. I saw my first poults of the year this week. I don't think moving the starting dates back are going to correct the trend we are seeing. In my opinion they're chasing the wrong rabbit.
:z-winnersmiley:
Quote from: Hook hanger on April 22, 2022, 06:47:44 PM
States might as well go to a fall gobbler only season!
IMO, in a state with a declining turkey population, it's hard to justify shooting hens in the fall...
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 22, 2022, 08:54:06 PM
Quote from: Hook hanger on April 22, 2022, 06:47:44 PM
States might as well go to a fall gobbler only season!
IMO, in a state with a declining turkey population, it's hard to justify shooting hens in the fall...
I'd be fine dropping killing hens nation wide
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I don't know if delaying the opening day 1-2 weeks is helping or not. But since they started delaying the season here in Alabama where I been hunting the turkey hunting has gotten a lot worse in my opinion. Most of the gobbling usually goes on the most the first week or two of season. For many years every since I started turkey hunting season always started March 15th. This year it didn't start until April 1st & you can't hunt past 1:00. I heard one turkey gobble 2-3 times & shut up on opening morning & haven't heard a gobble since. I wish they would have left opening day on March 15th like it has been for years & reduced the bag limit to maybe 1-2 birds per season. And I went last week & they had been burning some more. This ain't the first time they have burned in April which to my understanding is when they start nesting.
Where is the research that shows eggs going unfertilized?
Arkansas has been on the late season pattern for 10+ years with no improvements. . Nest predation is the elephant in the room
It's just a matter of time!
Quote from: arkrem870 on April 24, 2022, 08:22:03 AM
Where is the research that shows eggs going unfertilized?
Arkansas has been on the late season pattern for 10+ years with no improvements. . Nest predation is the elephant in the room
Pushing season dates back in La has helped from what I see .
But I agree , nest predators are a huge issue .
Quote from: Tom007 on April 21, 2022, 10:59:40 AM
NJ pushed the opener later by one week. We will see how this works out in the long run. Hopefully it allows more hens to get bred.
This happened a while ago in Nj. I believe it was around 2010. Around that time we were having record harvest numbers. Loss of habitat and miss management of the flock are definitely major issues here in this state. The northern zones are suffering pretty bad. We are witnessing a major decline in this state. It's no way even close to what it was. I'm no biologist. However... I would support this decision for the future.
:turkey:
Quote from: arkrem870 on April 24, 2022, 08:22:03 AM
Where is the research that shows eggs going unfertilized?
Arkansas has been on the late season pattern for 10+ years with no improvements. . Nest predation is the elephant in the room
https://aonmag.com/hunting/start-turkey-season-later-research-advisory-board/
I don't know how to make that a hyperlink so just copy and paste it into your browser. It's a long read but really interesting.
Quote from: RutnNStrutn on April 21, 2022, 12:58:30 AM
Quote from: silvestris on April 20, 2022, 10:14:46 PM
Again, too many people. When the illegals start hunting them, it will be a total goat rodeo.
Why don't you do your part, and give up turkey hunting? For the good of the species?
great point. everyone loves to complain about increased pressure in their areas but then will go burn through other states
I don't travel to hunt; Louisiana and accross the Big Muddy in Mississippi. I don't have to go far to recognize the problem, and the problem is not going anywhere. Too many takers chasing a finite resource.
Quote from: guesswho on April 22, 2022, 06:26:39 PM
You take an animal that's not that hard to kill to begin with, then increase pressure, reduce habitat and deploy tactics to make them even easier to kill! What could possibly go wrong? I start seeing breeding in mid to late February every year. I saw my first poults of the year this week. I don't think moving the starting dates back are going to correct the trend we are seeing. In my opinion they're chasing the wrong rabbit.
This. Turkeys are the easiest big game to kill by far and the tactics used are much more successful. The increase in the amount of hunters in the last few years is astonishing. It seems like it's tripled since the social media boom
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Quote from: turkey_slayer on April 27, 2022, 09:14:53 AM
Quote from: guesswho on April 22, 2022, 06:26:39 PM
You take an animal that's not that hard to kill to begin with, then increase pressure, reduce habitat and deploy tactics to make them even easier to kill! What could possibly go wrong? I start seeing breeding in mid to late February every year. I saw my first poults of the year this week. I don't think moving the starting dates back are going to correct the trend we are seeing. In my opinion they're chasing the wrong rabbit.
This. Turkeys are the easiest big game to kill by far and the tactics used are much more successful. The increase in the amount of hunters in the last few years is astonishing. It seems like it's tripled since the social media boom
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There's no doubt... How do we go about making dove and snipe hunting cool again???
Someone get a youtube channel started about that - TDHP has a nice ring to it...The Dove Hunting Project
Quote from: turkey_slayer on April 27, 2022, 09:14:53 AM
Quote from: guesswho on April 22, 2022, 06:26:39 PM
You take an animal that's not that hard to kill to begin with, then increase pressure, reduce habitat and deploy tactics to make them even easier to kill! What could possibly go wrong? I start seeing breeding in mid to late February every year. I saw my first poults of the year this week. I don't think moving the starting dates back are going to correct the trend we are seeing. In my opinion they're chasing the wrong rabbit.
This. Turkeys are the easiest big game to kill by far and the tactics used are much more successful. The increase in the amount of hunters in the last few years is astonishing. It seems like it's tripled since the social media boom
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are there no deer in virginia?
I have been seeing them strutting since late March here in NY most say their prime breeding season starts before our May 1 opener and we are getting the tail end of the breeding season. I am not 100% sure I agree with that but normally at the end of the season it is pretty dead around here, though I did have 5 jakes come out the last day of the season last year to my calling. On a good note I saw a tom strutting and gobbling while I was setting my blind up a week ago tomorrow, it was close to 5 in the evening so I hope there will be some morning action there as well.
Quote from: bigriverbum on April 29, 2022, 09:08:19 PM
Quote from: turkey_slayer on April 27, 2022, 09:14:53 AM
Quote from: guesswho on April 22, 2022, 06:26:39 PM
You take an animal that's not that hard to kill to begin with, then increase pressure, reduce habitat and deploy tactics to make them even easier to kill! What could possibly go wrong? I start seeing breeding in mid to late February every year. I saw my first poults of the year this week. I don't think moving the starting dates back are going to correct the trend we are seeing. In my opinion they're chasing the wrong rabbit.
This. Turkeys are the easiest big game to kill by far and the tactics used are much more successful. The increase in the amount of hunters in the last few years is astonishing. It seems like it's tripled since the social media boom
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are there no deer in virginia?
Where I hunt? Very few. Once the bear population exploded 20 years ago they've took a massive hit. Virginia actually just completed a study on fawn survival. Bears were responsible for 70% of the mortality. Of the 62 fawns coyotes only got 1, bobcat 3 and bears got the rest. I do hunt in probably the poorest habitat in the whole state tho. It's really just fit for bear. Steep, rocky and full of rhododendron
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Quote from: Hook hanger on April 22, 2022, 06:47:44 PM
States might as well go to a fall gobbler only season!
That's what I say.
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I could easily call in a Tom here in Florida at the end of January/first of February in most places I hunt but then again I have zero issues calling them in last weekend of season in April in places that have a lot of turkeys. On private land Ive heard them well into May still gobbling, I'm usually not on public that time of year but I'm sure they are doing same there on smaller scale. It would not hurt my feelings if we had a later start date to get more in line with rest of openers in the country. In my mind, that would do alot to reduce non resident pressure. Florida has carried the burden of being one of first states open for a long time, and traveling turkey hunters are definitely not new down here (although it has gotten worse the past couple years).
The flip side of that coin, I'm also a avid deer hunter and have travelled To many other states to hunt and would hate if they did something to cut us off from deer hunting those better opportunity states. I've also travelled to turkey hunt. I'm lucky to live in a state that has turkeys the whole country wants to kill but I don't think FWC has put much research into our population. We still have 2 birds spring and 2 bird fall season, rifles allowed on private lands, almost all private land has feeders that you only have to hunt 100 yards from and a 7 week season if you count both zones. I think there's is a a lot of room for improvement but I don't know enough myself to know what those measures should be.
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 21, 2022, 11:14:44 AM
Quote from: Number17 on April 21, 2022, 08:31:41 AM
We also hear about habitat loss, but turkeys will thrive in small urban woodlots all across the country.
I'm on the same page with you about the "habitat loss" theory.
Obviously turkeys need habitat (food/water/roosting/brood rearing/etc.), but they can thrive in some pretty surprising human-altered environments!
For example, this photo is from a few weeks ago, around the corner from my house.
This scenario is highly dependent on the hunting culture surrounding the area
Where I live, they'd be dead in a week
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Quote from: sasquatch1 on April 30, 2022, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 21, 2022, 11:14:44 AM
Quote from: Number17 on April 21, 2022, 08:31:41 AM
We also hear about habitat loss, but turkeys will thrive in small urban woodlots all across the country.
I'm on the same page with you about the "habitat loss" theory.
Obviously turkeys need habitat (food/water/roosting/brood rearing/etc.), but they can thrive in some pretty surprising human-altered environments!
For example, this photo is from a few weeks ago, around the corner from my house.
This scenario is highly dependent on the hunting culture surrounding the area
Where I live, they'd be dead in a week
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I'd give them until about 8:30 am opening day around here. And that's being generous.
Quote from: guesswho on April 30, 2022, 04:56:36 PM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on April 30, 2022, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: PNWturkey on April 21, 2022, 11:14:44 AM
Quote from: Number17 on April 21, 2022, 08:31:41 AM
We also hear about habitat loss, but turkeys will thrive in small urban woodlots all across the country.
I'm on the same page with you about the "habitat loss" theory.
Obviously turkeys need habitat (food/water/roosting/brood rearing/etc.), but they can thrive in some pretty surprising human-altered environments!
For example, this photo is from a few weeks ago, around the corner from my house.
This scenario is highly dependent on the hunting culture surrounding the area
Where I live, they'd be dead in a week
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I'd give them until about 8:30 am opening day around here. And that's being generous.
True, i was being very generous
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NY could stand to make the opener the first saturday in May following 4 weeks of season. A weekend opener helps retain hunter recruitment and participation, also envelopes the memorial weekend when a lot of people have off and some do turkey hunt there by purchasing a tag.
However many years ago the season used to be one bird could be harvested the first 15 days of the season and 1 the last 16 days of the season. That was a good rule, one i wouldn't mind seeing come back.
Fall the harvest of one bearded turkey would be better than one either sex as the season is now, and elongate the season back to what it was. October 1 to the day before southern firearms deer season.
NJ has it's own set of problems. Bird numbers nothing like they were in late 90's to early 2000's. Its a big money draw with their tags by the zones there. Although with a minimal fall season, always has been, the population has never returned to what it once was. Kinda proves that you cannot stockpile game as the literature suggests.
Quote from: bonasa on May 04, 2022, 09:22:20 PMthe season used to be one bird could be harvested the first 15 days of the season and 1 the last 16 days of the season.
Iowa has a similar regulation, 2 bird limit but you can't get both your spring turkeys in the early part of the season...