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Hot take, but IMO the TSS craze hasn't caused a higher percentage of non ethical shots, simply it has only extended the range at which they happen. People have always pushed the limits of their patterns and it will always be that way. Hunters used to push it with lead, then Heavymetal, LBXR's, and Winchester extended ranges. They all pushed out the effective range another 10 or so yards, and now TSS is doing the same. but as far as being the detriment to turkey hunting I don't believe that TSS has caused any additional unethical shots.....only the range that they take place at. In the end, just know what your setup will do and hunt how you want to.

Ethical shots are ones which you are confident, to a moral certainty, that you are going to cleanly kill the animal. Depending on the equipment and game, it may be 10yds or 500yds.
My turkey range has extended to where I am confident out to 50yds. Do I always take 50yd shots? No. I'd rather have them inside 40. But when circumstances dictate, I am confident I can take an ethical shot at a longer range. Ethical is determined by the individual, his skill with the equipment he has in his hands. If you enjoy getting them inside 20, go for it! If he spooks and you take him at 40, there's no shame in my book.

I don't recall many ammo companies bragging about 60 yard patterns, nor You Tube type bombardment with long shots and pressure to get dead turkey grins from everyone in the past.  But you are of course technically correct, people will always shoot too far and did so in the past.

If I could and did kill birds at 60 yards with no reservation, I honestly think my total number of birds killed in my life would be nearing double (assuming I had not limited out later that year) - I honestly think I have passed that many shots over the years.   

Depends on what your definition of ethical is? 

Quote from: OJR on March 31, 2022, 05:21:00 PM
Ethical shots are ones which you are confident, to a moral certainty, that you are going to cleanly kill the animal. Depending on the equipment and game, it may be 10yds or 500yds.
My turkey range has extended to where I am confident out to 50yds. Do I always take 50yd shots? No. I'd rather have them inside 40. But when circumstances dictate, I am confident I can take an ethical shot at a longer range. Ethical is determined by the individual, his skill with the equipment he has in his hands. If you enjoy getting them inside 20, go for it! If he spooks and you take him at 40, there's no shame in my book.

Exactly.  I've been using tss since before most people knew what it was and while I can, and on occasion do shoot a long shot most of the time it's inside of 40 yards just like the days before tss.  I just like the confidence of knowing I can, if I want, take a tom farther.

I have always examined my turkeys fairly closely. Like I look for fighting scars on the skin, any anomalies, stuff like that. That last few years I have noticed more turkeys with injuries that have been previously hit by shot than I did in the years prior. Last season I came across a tom just before dawn that had roosted on the ground, I assume he was probably hit some how and couldn't fly.

I am not saying it was specifically TSS (could be hevi, long range lead loads...whatever), but I do believe there are more long shots being taken at turkeys (like in the last 6 to 8 years) than there were previously and some of those shots are resulting in turkeys being insufficiently hit . Nothing scientific about it, just my observations. But if you aren't looking for it you may not see it.

Quote from: terp on April 03, 2022, 01:53:12 PM
Depends on what your definition of ethical is?

Which is why ethics have absolutely nothing to do with what's legal. Ethics are an arbitrary thing. Your idea of ethical might be completely different than my idea of ethical, and both of our ideas might be different than the next guy.
That's why I support all legal methods of hunting, regardless of if I would do it or not. If it's legal and makes you happy, I say good luck with your pursuit.

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I've killed numerous birds with lead shot in them. Haven't seen the first one with tss. I remember old timers touting their 60 yard shots with lead. People weren't any different then it's just stupid people are connected to the whole world now with social media. Heck people didn't even pattern or know what patterning was back then

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Quote from: Gooserbat on April 03, 2022, 02:26:14 PM

and while I can, and on occasion do shoot a long shot most of the time it's inside of 40 yards just like the days before tss.  I just like the confidence of knowing I can, if I want, take a tom farther.

Exactly!!

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So from an ethical standpoint, you would support burning the American flag just because it's is technically legal? 

Quote from: RutnNStrutn on April 03, 2022, 02:53:23 PM

Quote from: terp on April 03, 2022, 01:53:12 PM
Depends on what your definition of ethical is?

Which is why ethics have absolutely nothing to do with what's legal. Ethics are an arbitrary thing. Your idea of ethical might be completely different than my idea of ethical, and both of our ideas might be different than the next guy.
That's why I support all legal methods of hunting, regardless of if I would do it or not. If it's legal and makes you happy, I say good luck with your pursuit.

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Oh boy...

Ohhh Boy is right ^^^
:OGani:

Quote from: JohnSouth22 on March 31, 2022, 04:45:24 PM
Hot take, but IMO the TSS craze hasn't caused a higher percentage of non ethical shots, simply it has only extended the range at which they happen. People have always pushed the limits of their patterns and it will always be that way. Hunters used to push it with lead, then Heavymetal, LBXR's, and Winchester extended ranges. They all pushed out the effective range another 10 or so yards, and now TSS is doing the same. but as far as being the detriment to turkey hunting I don't believe that TSS has caused any additional unethical shots.....only the range that they take place at. In the end, just know what your setup will do and hunt how you want to.

JMHO... respectfully.

Definitely not a fan. When I see the you tubers shooting birds at 60 yards that are running it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.  I saw one video where this happened the hunter unloaded the gun on the bird. He shot the Tom, the wing was hanging on by a feather after the shot(s).  I'm totally disappointed with it. This has created many a bad long range shooting decisions.

  As people recently stated, if it's legal and the hunter displays good woodsman-ship. I'm for it as well.

The reality is, Hunting is a Bloodsport.
There always has been 50+ yard shots at turkey.
100 yard shots with a bow.
1000 yard shots with a rifle.
That will never change... All it takes is money and you can buy a weapon, license, ammo of your choice, and go hunt.
What need to be conveyed in a better way is woodsmanship and an honest look at your abilities with the weapon you're holding. The goal isn't a hail mary in hopes you kill what you're after but more of respect for what you're trying to kill in a humanely manor.

I was on the TSS is for .410's and 20 GA train for years but have since changes my mind.
There are advantages to shooting TSS in all gauge shotguns.

There are more advantages in hunting experiences you gain over years in the woods than benefits of TSS.
Social media is a larger contributor to the problem than TSS will ever be.
I wish we could stop the pressures of the next grip and grins and simply Hunt by yourself or with friends and family.
I did the OG turkey hunt contest last year, killed 2 birds and quickly realized I'll never do that again.

Quote from: CrustyRusty on April 03, 2022, 03:19:39 PM
So from an ethical standpoint, you would support burning the American flag just because it's is technically legal? 

That's a ridiculous question, but I do see your point. Since you are seeking clarification (though everyone knows you're just trying to start ), I will clarify for you.
To answer your question.....
NO!!!!!!
I am a patriot, and I love our flag and our country. I do NOT support burning the American flag.
Now, getting back to you simply trying to start . This is a hunting forum. We discuss hunting topics. This topic is not about burning our flag. Is it about hunting ethics and TSS.


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Really sorry to see this forum sink to this level.  May take a little break.  Good luck to those actually chasing the big birds. 

Admittedly you see my point, but accuse me of trying to start something. I was trying to convey an analogy that I was hoping you would understand, and apparently you did.   I've been on the forum for years, and sadly more often than it should be, people make posts that are clearly against the rules set forth when we signed up to be members here.  Discussing yardage exceeding 40 yards is a prime example.   

I've always viewed this forum and it's members as ambassadors to this sport with higher standards than the YouTube crowd.  We should not be hiding behind legalities to justify our ethics; whether they are good or bad.

OJR had a great post and exemplifies responsible hunting.  Unfortunately I guess I got set off a bit after watching a YouTube video with my grandson of a father and son shooting a bird at 70 yards using TSS and this thread caught my attention.  The video showed the bird coming in, getting hung up and then starting to go away. A teachable moment for this child and a lost opportunity for the father to teach his son responsible hunting ethics.  When I asked my grandson what he would have done in the same situation,  he said he would just have another day to spend with me going after that bird again.  That is ethical...

Quote from: RutnNStrutn on April 03, 2022, 05:21:08 PM

Quote from: CrustyRusty on April 03, 2022, 03:19:39 PM
So from an ethical standpoint, you would support burning the American flag just because it's is technically legal? 

That's a ridiculous question, but I do see your point. Since you are seeking clarification (though everyone knows you're just trying to start ), I will clarify for you.
To answer your question.....
NO!!!!!!
I am a patriot, and I love our flag and our country. I do NOT support burning the American flag.
Now, getting back to you simply trying to start . This is a hunting forum. We discuss hunting topics. This topic is not about burning our flag. Is it about hunting ethics and TSS.


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I read the rules when I registered with OG. Forgive me if I missed it, but I never saw any rules against discussing shooting a gobbler at more than 40 yards.
Hiding behind legalities? The last I heard, the law overrules arbitrary individual ethical views. That's why the law is the law. It is the FINAL say. PERIOD!!! Ethics are arbitrary and subject to individual interpretation. I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion, but we live in America. The ability to express free speech is in the FIRST Amendment, at least for now, until liberals and Internet turkey hunting purists change that.

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The 40 yard shot was discussed by Shannon in the OG rules in February 2012.

Here's some fuel for the fire. In Idaho,Wyoming, and Nevada wanton waste laws do not require hunters to salvage any meat from mountain lions or bears. So it is legal to shoot a bear in these states and leave the meat to rot. Perfectly legal but is it ethical?

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 04, 2022, 01:38:41 PM
Here's some fuel for the fire. In Idaho,Wyoming, and Nevada wanton waste laws do not require hunters to salvage any meat from mountain lions or bears. So it is legal to shoot a bear in these states and leave the meat to rot. Perfectly legal but is it ethical?

For me?  No.

For the Idaho sheep farmer that is suffering heavy predation from mountain lions on his lamb crop?  Absolutely. 

Ethics are relative and innate.  Hard to ascribe to others.  Laws are derived from common ethics and mores, but usually less restrictive than ethics by civilized people.

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 04, 2022, 01:38:41 PM
Here's some fuel for the fire. In Idaho,Wyoming, and Nevada wanton waste laws do not require hunters to salvage any meat from mountain lions or bears. So it is legal to shoot a bear in these states and leave the meat to rot. Perfectly legal but is it ethical?

Here is another tid bit.  In those western states in particular to bears in the spring there meat contains a high enough level of toxicity from the hibernation that it's for on un palatable and two is to some extent toxic.  Also those states recognize them more as a carnivore and a predator population to be controlled than edible game.

Quote from: Gooserbat on April 04, 2022, 02:23:34 PM

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 04, 2022, 01:38:41 PM
Here's some fuel for the fire. In Idaho,Wyoming, and Nevada wanton waste laws do not require hunters to salvage any meat from mountain lions or bears. So it is legal to shoot a bear in these states and leave the meat to rot. Perfectly legal but is it ethical?

Here is another tid bit.  In those western states in particular to bears in the spring there meat contains a high enough level of toxicity from the hibernation that it's for on un palatable and two is to some extent toxic.  Also those states recognize them more as a carnivore and a predator population to be controlled than edible game.

I've never heard of bear meat being toxic in the spring. I quick search showed trichinosis but that's taken care of if properly cooked. Another result had compared thier spring bear to fall bear they harvested and felt there was nothing wrong with the spring bears they shot and will be shooting and eating them in the future. Not sure where they shot the bears and can't see where it would matter if the bear was shot in Maine or in Nevada as to toxicity after hibernation.

I don't hunt them personally. I Have eaten it on occasion and it was very palatable. Hunting around here only occurs in the fall. Recognizing them as a predator sure but bears are omnivores. As of now my opinion stands. Barring nuisance bears, shooting one and leaving the meat to rot reeks of trophy hunters stroking thier ego's. I got no time for hunters like that and quite frankly think they show hunting in bad light. I'll use my second amendment rights at every turn to inform them so, even if it is legal.

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 04, 2022, 01:38:41 PM
Here's some fuel for the fire. In Idaho,Wyoming, and Nevada wanton waste laws do not require hunters to salvage any meat from mountain lions or bears. So it is legal to shoot a bear in these states and leave the meat to rot. Perfectly legal but is it ethical?

Not ethical at all. Bear meat and mountain lion meat is very good if cooked and cared for properly.

Quote from: Gooserbat on April 04, 2022, 02:23:34 PM

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 04, 2022, 01:38:41 PM
Here's some fuel for the fire. In Idaho,Wyoming, and Nevada wanton waste laws do not require hunters to salvage any meat from mountain lions or bears. So it is legal to shoot a bear in these states and leave the meat to rot. Perfectly legal but is it ethical?

Here is another tid bit.  In those western states in particular to bears in the spring there meat contains a high enough level of toxicity from the hibernation that it's for on un palatable and two is to some extent toxic.  Also those states recognize them more as a carnivore and a predator population to be controlled than edible game.

Toxicity of what?

I was just on one of the bow hunting forums and a guy was talking about how he just learned about tss and how you can shoot birds out to 60 yards.

My response was, turkey hunting is just like bowhunting. Its all about being up close a personal with the game your pursuing.

Well see how he responds.

Lets be honest, its tough to judge distance. I use to do alot of bowhunting so I know this first hand. Laser range finders are helpful and commonly used by bowhunters. But I can't say I have ever seen a turkey hunter carrying a rangefinder while hunting with a shotgun. Lets assume someone thinks they have a longbeard at 35-40 yards but in reality that bird is just over 50 yards. The hunter takes the shot. With lead it could be wounded and never recovered. With tss it could be a dead bird and recovered and the tag is filled.

This hunt took place in a 1 bird per season state. The hunter shooting lead may go on to harvest another turkey later in the season. But in reality he killed 2 birds, one lost and one bagged. The tss hunter fills his tag and is done for the season.

Being a bowhunter there have been times I did everything in my power to make ethical shots. But misjudged the distance, had a deer jump the string, hit a small branch I didn't see, was shaking to bad to make an accurate shot, high winds effected arrow trajectory, and so on. Unfortunately I wounded and lost game b/c of these factors.

I've seen deer wounded and lost as a result of gun hunters, ducks, geese and pheasant fly away dangling legs because they only took a pellet or two and it wasn't enough to bring them down.   

Wounding and loosing turkey is not isolated to people hunting with tss. It happens in all aspects of hunting. Hell even when catch and release fishing, fish will occasionally swallow a hook or get hooked in the gills and bleed out and die.

Unfortunately its part of it. All we can do is our best which I think most people try to do.

I rest my case. 26 responses from the thousands of OG members, and some of those responses were from the same people. Yet we still can't come to a concensus. That's why ethics don't rule the day, and laws do. People always have had, and always will have differing points of view. They will disagree on what's right and what's wrong. That's why the powers that be set laws and make the decisions for us. If you have personal ethics that are more strict than what is legal, then more power to you. I totally support that. Just don't try to force others to follow your opinion of what is ethical to you.
Where's that "beating a dead horse" emoji when you need it? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220405/61e45e31928ca74212f9445955a9fc17.jpg)

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Quote from: RutnNStrutn on April 04, 2022, 11:21:15 PM
I rest my case. 26 responses from the thousands of OG members, and some of those responses were from the same people. Yet we still can't come to a concensus. That's why ethics don't rule the day, and laws do. People always have had, and always will have differing points of view. They will disagree on what's right and what's wrong. That's why the powers that be set laws and make the decisions for us. If you have personal ethics that are more strict than what is legal, then more power to you. I totally support that. Just don't try to force others to follow your opinion of what is ethical to you.
Where's that "beating a dead horse" emoji when you need it? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220405/61e45e31928ca74212f9445955a9fc17.jpg)

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These online forums thrive on arguments and chest pounding. This place is tame to Archerytalk. I abide by all game laws,consider myself a very ethical hunter, but I am not a liberal so I don't try and throw shade or tell someone else what their ethics should be. The only concern I have for others in the woods, is they follow game laws and act in a safe manner. I am not out there to play "ethics god", life is way to short to worry about something you have no control over, like it or not.


I believe the same guys taking 90 yard shots on turkeys with tss, were the same ones shooting 87 yards with lead.

I don't personally hunt with anybody like that,nor would I ever but I assume they are around my area as well.

Yes we really have run this topic into the ground.  Too bad - this forum once was better than this.  I do always have a range finder with me but at times range can be a quick estimate especially when running and gunning.  I know my gun's and ammo's limitations and won't purposely take a shot that exceeds either.  The TSS loads give me a little extra edge if I'm thinking 35 yards and he is actually 45 yards.  Specifically used my 870 12 ga with Apex TSS on the season's first hunt for no reason other than while pre-scouting felt I would be dealing with "pasture birds" that are notorious for hanging up out away from adjacent tree lines (picture on earlier post).  Over the prior days of scouting had observed birds strolling by inside of an easily recognizable natural marker that ranged at 43 yards from my intended set up tree.  I intended to take any good shot if a bird was inside this marker.  Ended up with a shot at 16 paces.  Really irked at the insinuations that if you use TSS in a 12 ga you are automatically a scum bag long range shooter.  With shipping paid around $55 for five Apex TSS.  Fired one to check pattern and zero - close to perfect.  Fired one at a gobbler.  Have three left to put to good use if the 12 goes again on an out of state hunt.  When those three are expended will buy 5 more because IMO the TSS is far superior in both pattern and overall knock down power and the big birds deserve it.  No place for me to get cheap or nostalgic for the good old lead days even when using the 12 if the TSS is legal.  In the .410 it is a no brainer - TSS or nothing.

Quote from: joey46 on April 05, 2022, 07:45:56 AM
Yes we really have run this topic into the ground.  Too bad - this forum once was better than this.  I do always have a range finder with me but at times range can be a quick estimate especially when running and gunning.  I know my gun's and ammo's limitations and won't purposely take a shot that exceeds either.  The TSS loads give me a little extra edge if I'm thinking 35 yards and he is actually 45 yards.  Specifically used my 870 12 ga with Apex TSS on the season's first hunt for no reason other than while pre-scouting felt I would be dealing with "pasture birds" that are notorious for hanging up out away from adjacent tree lines (picture on earlier post).  Over the prior days of scouting had observed birds strolling by inside of an easily recognizable natural marker that ranged at 43 yards from my intended set up tree.  I intended to take any good shot if a bird was inside this marker.  Ended up with a shot at 16 paces.  Really irked at the insinuations that if you use TSS in a 12 ga you are automatically a scum bag long range shooter.  With shipping paid around $70 for five Apex TSS.  Fired one to check pattern and zero - close to perfect.  Fired one at a gobbler.  Have three left to put to good use if the 12 goes again on an out of state hunt.  When those three are expended will buy 5 more because IMO the TSS is far superior in both pattern and overall knock down power and the big birds deserve it.  No place for me to get cheap or nostalgic for the good old lead days even when using the 12 if the TSS is legal.  In the .410 it is a no brainer - TSS or nothing.

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, sorry you feel that way. I have no interest in shooting tss, but i really don't care if others want to use it. I could really state my opinion about a lot of things, but i believe in being respectful of others, and in the end, it is just my personal opinions, and not worth anymore than anyone else's here. You are always going to find views that disagree with your own from time to time, best to just take it with a grain of salt and move on. Life is too short to get worked up over shotgun ammo.

Well I am gonna use hevishot out of my 12 Gauge this year so y'all aint near as cool as me! In all honesty I really don't care. Some people want to hunt turkeys and some people want to kill turkeys. The day that a gobbler becomes a number to me or a notch in my belt I will quit. Yes we all hunt to kill but I think for someone to truly understand and appreciate turkey hunting they need to see deeper than the surface and understand the true substance of the game. I think some people get it and a lot don't. The turkeys would be a lot better off if more people got it. I can't and aint gonna tell people what to do but I wish more people did get it. I really enjoy Old Gobbler, it is nice to be able to converse with other turkey junkies and have a good time. I enjoy sharing stories and pictures and having a good time. However I don't want it to be about me. Its about celebrating one of our favorite pastimes and enjoying the season. Now my exceedingly good looks are another subject entirely. I am blessed and just can't help it fellers. I would prefer to make it more about the turkeys and less about us.

Maybe we could start a thread titled:  "Not Using TSS Causes a Higher Percentage of Unethical Shots"
that would go over well I'll bet  :deadhorse:

Quote from: Happy on April 05, 2022, 10:06:54 AM
Well I am gonna use hevishot out of my 12 Gauge this year so y'all aint near as cool as me! In all honesty I really don't care. Some people want to hunt turkeys and some people want to kill turkeys. The day that a gobbler becomes a number to me or a notch in my belt I will quit. Yes we all hunt to kill but I think for someone to truly understand and appreciate turkey hunting they need to see deeper than the surface and understand the true substance of the game. I think some people get it and a lot don't. The turkeys would be a lot better off if more people got it. I can't and aint gonna tell people what to do but I wish more people did get it. I really enjoy Old Gobbler, it is nice to be able to converse with other turkey junkies and have a good time. I enjoy sharing stories and pictures and having a good time. However I don't want it to be about me. Its about celebrating one of our favorite pastimes and enjoying the season. Now my exceedingly good looks are another subject entirely. I am blessed and just can't help it fellers. I would prefer to make it more about the turkeys and less about us.

^ Happy Gets it.  :icon_thumright:

    But still not cooler the me because I use Hevi in my 20
:funnyturkey:

Well good luck to all of y'all, regardless of if you get it or not, shoot TSS or lead, use a 12 or a .410, shoot a gobbler at 10 yards or 70 yards, or any of the other things people like to argue about on Internet forums. I hope you all have a safe and successful spring season.

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Quote from: RutnNStrutn on April 05, 2022, 04:04:03 PM
Well good luck to all of y'all, regardless of if you get it or not, shoot TSS or lead, use a 12 or a .410, shoot a gobbler at 10 yards or 70 yards, or any of the other things people like to argue about on Internet forums. I hope you all have a safe and successful spring season.

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Well said! 

Over 40 will always be a controversial subject ...all the threads end up the same way ..all of them

There is a good reason why the NWTF still shoot is at exactly 40 yards

I try to avoid controversial issues , so as a standard we ask people just don't bring up the over 40 thing ...it always ends up the same way each and every time