Traveled a little south recently to a WMA about a hour and a half south of the line the FWC draws for Osceolas. Got this bird on the first day, looked like a two year old, came in quiet. Just heard some semi aggressive purring behind me and that was him getting nervous. Shot him before he could make an exit. Used a new metal mouth II and an ET one sider. It's body weight was smaller than the usual eastern I get in north FL. I'd be happy with it whether it was an Osceola or not . The wing when compared to an eastern does look a little darker. I'm curios to know if this is what an Osceola wing looks like to most ppl that hunt them. I'll try and download a wing pic
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You got him, good job! Sure do look like some dark wings to me.
I'm not sure if this wing pic is gonna come through or not, if so the osceola is on the left and a regular eastern from north florida is on the right
Geeeeez, it took me seven try's to download that pic and then it flipped it. I guess the Osceola is on the right now.
Maybe the way your holding the camera, looks like the Osceola is in front of your right hand.
Yes, for some reason the picture flipped. The osceola is the bottom right. At least the pic of me holding the bird isn't upside down or sideways, thats a first.
I'd call him an Osceola. But but a good possibility he has some eastern in him. The further South you go the more prominent those dark wings become. With a South Florida Osceola there's no doubt when you see one and put your hands on him.
Nope, not even close actually. 20 yrs busting heads in deep s. Florida
Who cares, he's a Tom he gets it!
Don't care what color wings tail feathers are!
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Very nice bird. Congrats.
Yep..nice gobbler congrats!
Nice bird. These discussions come up every year. The "magic line" is no more than a best guess based on more than science IMO. Of course there are going to be hybrids but when some hunting operations get $2000 and up for an Osceola the word "hybrid" is often frowned upon. Look through FWC's Outstanding Gobbler Registry and note the weights of the bird's from the northern counties that are still well below the magic line. Draw your own conclusions. A turkey really doesn't change back and forth from an Eastern to a Osceola as he flies back and forth across the Suwannee River but he can get a whole lot more expensive. I remember an old argument on the NWTF's forum where a guy was looking for a DNA test. Geez!
Starting to see a few of these discussions pop up out west regarding "true" Merriams. A nice gobbler is a nice gobbler and the big birds deserve better.
My buddy and I have made this guy our target gobbler. He is/was located far below the "magic line" and runs this swampy area. He seldom gobbles. If one of us lucks out we won't care his true linage. His one visible spur is truly epic. The other likely matches.
BTW - there is nothing more frustrating than trying to get pictures to post on this forum. Grr! Resized three times.
Quote from: joey46 on March 29, 2021, 03:43:49 AM
Nice bird. These discussions come up every year. The "magic line" is no more than a best guess based on more than science IMO. Of course there are going to be hybrids but when some hunting operations get $2000 and up for an Osceola the word "hybrid" is often frowned upon. Look through FWC's Outstanding Gobbler Registry and note the weights of the bird's from the northern counties that are still well below the magic line. Draw your own conclusions. A turkey really doesn't change back and forth from an Eastern to a Osceola as he flies back and forth across the Suwannee River but he can get a whole lot more expensive. I remember an old argument on the NWTF's forum where a guy was looking for a DNA test. Geez!
Starting to see a few of these discussions pop up out west regarding "true" Merriams. A nice gobbler is a nice gobbler and the big birds deserve better.
Exactly! Decades ago there was a great debate about the Osceola turkey and whether it should even be considered a separate subspecies when DNA analysis showed that it was essentially genetically identical to the Eastern subspecies. That DNA analysis and that conclusion were quickly buried in the "turkey hunting X-Files"! ...Go figure! ;D :angel9:
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 29, 2021, 02:10:13 PM
Exactly! Decades ago there was a great debate about the Osceola turkey and whether it should even be considered a separate subspecies when DNA analysis showed that it was essentially genetically identical to the Eastern subspecies. That DNA analysis and that conclusion were quickly buried in the "turkey hunting X-Files"! ...Go figure! ;D :angel9:
$$$$$$$
I killed a couple birds years ago...1988...inland of Sarasota. I imagine they were Osceolas.
Congrats on your tom. All toms taken by fair chase are trophies no matter where you shoot him.
Genetics or not, bottom line is it comes down to looks. Just as in the difference in white fan merriams vs dark easterns. I cringe when I see pics from some of these guys and their "osceolas" they just spent 3k on. Kill one in true deep s. Florida period! Forget about the "line" and go way south of that to be certain.
Quote from: Wvdanimal on March 29, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
Genetics or not, bottom line is it comes down to looks. Just as in the difference in white fan merriams vs dark easterns. I cringe when I see pics from some of these guys and their "osceolas" they just spent 3k on. Kill one in true deep s. Florida period! Forget about the "line" and go way south of that to be certain.
I've seen them from the swamps of Georgia and SC that checks every box for an Osceola as far as looks and characteristics, they just don't check the deep South Florida box.
Quote from: guesswho on March 29, 2021, 09:26:29 PM
Quote from: Wvdanimal on March 29, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
Genetics or not, bottom line is it comes down to looks. Just as in the difference in white fan merriams vs dark easterns. I cringe when I see pics from some of these guys and their "osceolas" they just spent 3k on. Kill one in true deep s. Florida period! Forget about the "line" and go way south of that to be certain.
I've seen them from the swamps of Georgia and SC that checks every box for an Osceola as far as looks and characteristics, they just don't check the deep South Florida box.
Spot on
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Quote from: Southerngobbler on March 27, 2021, 06:20:13 PM
I'm not sure if this wing pic is gonna come through or not, if so the osceola is on the left and a regular eastern from north florida is on the right
Geeeeez, it took me seven try's to download that pic and then it flipped it. I guess the Osceola is on the right now.
You had me wondering until I saw where you said it flipped it. :D
Congrats! Good looking bird.
If it's not then 1/2 of the so called merriam's aren't either.
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 30, 2021, 07:52:08 AM
If it's not then 1/2 of the so called merriam's aren't either.
Yep, with a few exceptions being the isolated "sky island" mountain ranges in some of the western states, this is a fact. Of course, the same can be said for any of the subspecies that have been introduced in places where they overlap and are not geographically isolated from each other.
It's nice to chat about killing this or that subspecies and the whole "grand slam" stuff, but the truth is that actually accomplishing it with four "pure" representatives of the those four,...if indeed there are actually FOUR to start with,...is becoming less and less likely.
It doesn't really matter, call him whatever you want to. That's how most folks do it anyway. You killed a wild turkey gobbler and you should be proud of him.
Quote from: guesswho on March 29, 2021, 09:26:29 PM
Quote from: Wvdanimal on March 29, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
Genetics or not, bottom line is it comes down to looks. Just as in the difference in white fan merriams vs dark easterns. I cringe when I see pics from some of these guys and their "osceolas" they just spent 3k on. Kill one in true deep s. Florida period! Forget about the "line" and go way south of that to be certain.
I've seen them from the swamps of Georgia and SC that checks every box for an Osceola as far as looks and characteristics, they just don't check the deep South Florida box.
Agreed.
Quote from: guesswho on March 29, 2021, 09:26:29 PM
I've seen them from the swamps of Georgia and SC that checks every box for an Osceola as far as looks and characteristics, they just don't check the deep South Florida box.
I was curious as to where the Osceola line came from. It looks like it goes back to a 1955 study of gallinaceous birds in the United States by Aldrich and Duvall. The line used today is at the southern edge of the Intergrade region for Easterns and Osceolas on their map.
(http://goodhunt.blogs.theledger.com/files/2018/03/turk.jpg)
Their map from 1955 shows observations of turkeys with Osceola characteristics well above the Florida state line.
I found more info on the history here:
http://goodhunt.blogs.theledger.com/24250/floridas-hybrid-gobbler/ (http://goodhunt.blogs.theledger.com/24250/floridas-hybrid-gobbler/)
I do wonder if the same study was done today, would they draw the same lines, would the Integrade region be even larger, or would they even try, given that Easterns and Osceolas are the only sub-species that can't be distinguished through DNA tests.
It's crazy the number of folks that get "butt hurt" over is it or isn't it one subspecies or another. Call it gobbling ostrich for all I care. :)
There's an "official" line...........for whatever that's worth.
There can be a good many differences between each individual Eastern and Merriam's, too. I guess until the biologists come up with a definitive hand guide on how many % the wing feathers have to be this color or or a Sherwin Williams chip-chart for what color the tips have to be................ ::)
I shot two Florida birds within the last several day that were BOTH south of the "official" Osceola line. One's got heavy Eastern influence. One's classic Osceola. NWTF and biologists recognize them as both being the same sub-species.
What EV.
I had a FREAKIN' BALL hunting them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51084551687_b472c4e75e_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51082954397_3ab95f22ad_k.jpg)
Congrats Don on a fine pair of Toms
Nice bird congrats.
I always thought of the grand slam as being about the places you got to experience while chasing each subspecies just as much as the birds themselves. If I ever get the chance to pursue the slam, it won't matter much to me if his tail fan is buff or white or if he's wings barring is skinny or thick.
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Beautiful birds!!!
I did kill my first Osceola a week ago in South Florida. I was happy that he exhibited the dark primaries but was mostly happy that I was able to hunt the pines, palmettos, cypress and live oaks of Florida.
Lots of talk about nose swabs for a virus these days, maybe we can get one to tell us what sub-species they are...
Now, if we can just get them to line up at a testing site before hand... ;D
Two beautiful birds Yoder. Congrats!
I'm now starting to remember some of those old NWTF forum "discussions" regarding this subject. Some didn't think a bird was a true Osceola unless the gobbler could see Key West from his roost tree. Couldn't see Marker Zero - obviously an Eastern. Lol :turkey2:
Quote from: joey46 on March 30, 2021, 05:30:40 PM
Some didn't think a bird was a true Osceola unless the gobbler could see Key West from his roost tree. Couldn't see Marker Zero - obviously an Eastern. Lol :turkey2:
:TooFunny: