Did I explain this right?

[LaLongbeard]

I can only read the quoted replies of la.   

Yes it was unfortunate that I had to block you from being able to read my posts. But you had an unhealthy fixation on anything I posted and I know it may be hard for you to believe, but  I blocked you for your own well being. ?
I think me an Pa got it figured out...move along

[blake_08]

I found this chart, which I find interesting. It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards.  Looks like #7 TSS is the heavy hitter and maintains penetration, velocity, and pellet energy better than #9s and #5 lead. Either way, if you have adequate pattern density at 40 yards, any of the 3 will do the job. Good discussion.

click the PDF below to look at that chart. I tried to upload just a picture of the chart but I couldn't.

[g8rvet]

Good point blake.  It is must be because a #5 lead has more force than the # 9 TSS because either it had a greater mass (density per unit of volume-we KNOW it has more volume, it is larger) or more velocity (I would suspect both are true).  If the #7 TSS has greater mass, even with less velocity, it's force could be greater than the #5 lead pellet if the greater mass offsets the lesser velocity.  Sounds like that is not true for the #9. 

All this reminds me of Karamojo Bell and his belief that there was no such thing as "knock down power" when dealing with large game (like elephants).  The "experts" of the day all advocated carrying hand cannons (like 4 gauge smoothbores) to kill elephants.  He used the (at the time) tiny 7x57 Mauser and even the .303 British to kill elephants and he did it at a rate that no one will ever accomplish again.  Penetration to the brain was what he advocated and they all thought he was nuts.  Kinda true here, any pellet (#9 and up) that has sufficient energy delivered to the brain of the turkey will kill it stone dead.  You just have to get more density in the smaller pellets to deliver the proper energy or shoot them very close.  I shot up several boxes of #7 steel, that were given to me, at woodies in the river swamp.  I just had to take close shots and they killed them quite effectively. 

[GobbleNut]

All this reminds me of Karamojo Bell and his belief that there was no such thing as "knock down power" when dealing with large game (like elephants).  The "experts" of the day all advocated carrying hand cannons (like 4 gauge smoothbores) to kill elephants.  He used the (at the time) tiny 7x57 Mauser and even the .303 British to kill elephants and he did it at a rate that no one will ever accomplish again.  Penetration to the brain was what he advocated and they all thought he was nuts.

Just an off-topic pondering:
I wonder what thoughts about caliber and knock-down power occurred in those few seconds after the guy hunting elephants missed the brain on that first shot and a really pissed-off elephant was on his way to squash him like a bug?!   

[LaLongbeard]

Without rebooting the whole argument. My whole intended point was that a lot of the  TSS information is both misleading and wrong. Never said it won't work. But the more energy or more weight is false. Momentum, kinetic Energy, mass, density are used interchangeably and are not the same. Penetration is good but bones break by force and energy not penetration. There are hundreds of people believing the hype and have no idea of the actual facts. The question I have is not will a a TSS -# 9 kill a turkey but why do so many people lie about its comparison to a lead #5? On the bright side at least they have toned it down some, if anybody remembers about 2 years ago people were saying a TSS#9 was the equivalent of a lead # 4!
    Bell was an exception to the rule. For every elephant he killed with a 7x57 there is a story of a hunter being run down and obliterated by a wounded elephant. And that is the reason every other professional elephant hunter before or after Bell used bigger heavier rifles and why most thought he was an idiot. 

[paboxcall]

Bell should have used #9 TSS.

[g8rvet]

All this reminds me of Karamojo Bell and his belief that there was no such thing as "knock down power" when dealing with large game (like elephants).  The "experts" of the day all advocated carrying hand cannons (like 4 gauge smoothbores) to kill elephants.  He used the (at the time) tiny 7x57 Mauser and even the .303 British to kill elephants and he did it at a rate that no one will ever accomplish again.  Penetration to the brain was what he advocated and they all thought he was nuts.

Just an off-topic pondering:
I wonder what thoughts about caliber and knock-down power occurred in those few seconds after the guy hunting elephants missed the brain on that first shot and a really pissed-off elephant was on his way to squash him like a bug?!   

He died an old man back in Scotland-with over a thousand dead elephants to his credit.  But Peter Capstick said that many men tried to emulate his shooting skills, unsuccessfully!  When he was shooting for herd control he would drop the lead bull and pick off the others sauntering away.  The rear ward brain shot is known as the Bell Shot.  I knew this a turkey hunting site, but anyone that loves adventure should read Capstick.  Amazing, true, well researched stories with no embellishment of a time long gone.

[g8rvet]

Bell should have used #9 TSS.

Now that is funny!  he did kinda use the TSS of his day - full metal jacket! 

[Rapscallion Vermilion]

I found this chart, which I find interesting. It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards.  Looks like #7 TSS is the heavy hitter and maintains penetration, velocity, and pellet energy better than #9s and #5 lead. Either way, if you have adequate pattern density at 40 yards, any of the 3 will do the job. Good discussion.

click the PDF below to look at that chart. I tried to upload just a picture of the chart but I couldn't.

Great chart.  Thanks for posting.  That penetration energy (kinetic energy/unit area) is the leading order term in ballistic penetration calculations, whether through soft viscous materials (ballistic gelatin, flesh) or hard materials (armor plate, bone).   I use TSS #9s in a 20 gauge, my hunting buddy uses lead #5s in a 12 gauge.  At the ranges we shoot, neither of us feels at a disadvantage to the other.  If I was required to use lead, I would switch to a 12 gauge.  TSS and HWT before it, really opened things up for the smaller gauges because they permit higher mass payloads at SAAMI pressures and typical velocities.

[Spitten and drummen]

I have to say #9 TSS is the cats meow in a 20 gauge.

[ChiefBubba]

Bell should have used #9 TSS.

Now that is funny!  he did kinda use the TSS of his day - full metal jacket!

Hey Vet hows it going? Funny you mention the Bell Shot. I knew of him but haven't read any of what you mentioned. I'll have too look it up. Bubba

[g8rvet]

Going well Chief!  Hope you had a great turkey season.  Ours was great, but duck season was a lot of work and not much to show here in the north. 

Bell wrote his own books, but they are a tough read with the Victorian language.  Capstick does a great job putting it in modern English and tells many a tale of other adventurists too. 

[ChiefBubba]

Going well Chief!  Hope you had a great turkey season.  Ours was great, but duck season was a lot of work and not much to show here in the north. 

Bell wrote his own books, but they are a tough read with the Victorian language.  Capstick does a great job putting it in modern English and tells many a tale of other adventurists too.

My turkey season was okay we called in a few birds and killed 2. I killed a Jake on the last weekend of the season. I spent most of the season trying to get a couple of kids their first bird with no success.
Duck season the same here. I mostly took kids out and let them shoot Black Bellies. We found a good flock of Teal on one of our ranches and went back with some hunters next day and gone. Bubba

[Sir-diealot]

Okay so let me ask this since it involves numbers and thus I am lost, I have been using Longbear XR #6 shot (I have never seen a pattern of number 5 shot I have even been close to liking but have liked most I have seen with number 6 shot so I use 6) Would using number 8 shot be better or worse in TSS? (#8 is the highest you can go in NY and I think lowest is #4) I honestly have zero interest in shooting over 35-40 yards, I have neither the eyes nor the skill to do so and I owe it to the turkey to realize that and not push it, but I do like to try new things just for the fun of it, I can't count all the different kind of arrow vanes, broadheads, broadhead weight and spines of arrows I have tried but I just like to do that stuff. If there is no real benefit then I would rather not waste my money.

[paboxcall]

Honestly Steve, if the #6 pattern well through your gun, moving to #8 TSS is of no measurable benefit, other than you like making bunch more holes in something. If that is your range give or take, your current shell will get it done no problem.

Save the money on the new shells, different choke tube possibly, patterning, and spend it on other toys.