True POA and POI shotguns don't exist???

[the Ward]

Some of the very best poa/poi Guns were the fixed choke Remingtons, before we realized we needed a softball size pattern to kill a turkey at 30 yards?

......and realized we "need" camo guns, a camo costume, a camo face mask and 3 1/2" bone crushers. I guess Pop was a better hunter than us with his full choked 2 3/4" gun.

Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?

[mhamby]

I have a CZ Swamp Magnum O/U that has a great POA/POI with the bottom barrel. The top barrel shoots a bit high, so I use a more open choke/load combo in that one for the close up engagement and my POA is just above the wattles.
My best aligned POA/POI shotgun overall is my 1980's Mossberg 500A. It's shooting my turkey loads lights out with the bead sights. Otherwise I'd have to say that I had an 1187 Supermag that was pretty much spot-on as well.

[longislandloco]

Some of the very best poa/poi Guns were the fixed choke Remingtons, before we realized we needed a softball size pattern to kill a turkey at 30 yards?

......and realized we "need" camo guns, a camo costume, a camo face mask and 3 1/2" bone crushers. I guess Pop was a better hunter than us with his full choked 2 3/4" gun.

Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?

My only point was it's not gospel what you use...........enjoy your season!

[Brwndg]

I've got two 11-87s; one 12 gauge and one 20 gauge. Both have true POA/POI

[LaLongbeard]

.

Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?

Very few. A good double was/is always more expensive than any other action type. Anyone that had a good double would not have switched to a cheaper pump, any that did were too pore to have a good double in the first place. The uncontrollable urge to buy the latest fad is a new human condition. In the old days you bought the best you could afford and became proficient with it from repeated use. The disposable shotgun did not exist as it does today.

[Charlie 51]

Never had any problems with super x2 or x3. The Winchester's I've shot have been right on. My SB 2 is also good on POI. It's deadly with 640 constriction an the old Federal 7's..

[the Ward]

.

Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?

Very few. A good double was/is always more expensive than any other action type. Anyone that had a good double would not have switched to a cheaper pump, any that did were too pore to have a good double in the first place. The uncontrollable urge to buy the latest fad is a new human condition. In the old days you bought the best you could afford and became proficient with it from repeated use. The disposable shotgun did not exist as it does today.

Most people in those days readily embraced advancements in firearms technology. A5's, model 97's and model 12's, and a little later on, model 870's and 1100's were sold in the 10's of millions. Those were not disposable nor cheap guns for their respective eras, or today for that matter. Don't get me wrong, lots of double barrels, both well made and inexpensive, were used and treasured by their owners. But they rapidly lost ground to the new autos and pumps in sales, particularly post ww2.

[owlhoot]

Steel shot regulations put a good dent in the use of those old doubles and model 12's also.

[the Ward]

It sure did! It's a shame too. They have bismuth loads that are safe for old guns, but they are not cheap.I picked up a few boxes to try out of an old savage 311 i have. Going to take the old girl to stretch her legs on a proper waterfowl hunt next year.

[LaLongbeard]

.

Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?

Very few. A good double was/is always more expensive than any other action type. Anyone that had a good double would not have switched to a cheaper pump, any that did were too pore to have a good double in the first place. The uncontrollable urge to buy the latest fad is a new human condition. In the old days you bought the best you could afford and became proficient with it from repeated use. The disposable shotgun did not exist as it does today.

Most people in those days readily embraced advancements in firearms technology. A5's, model 97's and model 12's, and a little later on, model 870's and 1100's were sold in the 10's of millions. Those were not disposable nor cheap guns for their respective eras, or today for that matter. Don't get me wrong, lots of double barrels, both well made and inexpensive, were used and treasured by their owners. But they rapidly lost ground to the new autos and pumps in sales, particularly post ww2.

You quoted it but did you read it? The disposable guns  I'm talking about  are the cheap plastic crooked shooting crap made today. No one bought a model 12 because it was an advancement they bought it because it was 1/4 the price of a model 21. It took a couple generations to forget about the double and it was all $$ not advancements that made people buy a pump.

[the Ward]

Yes i did read the  quote. I was discussing the move from doubles to autos and pumps, by prior generations. I did not mention plastic disposable guns, and that was not in the quote i was discussing. That was in one of your previous posts, which i did not quote.Yes, people have always bought what they could afford, but they also bought the guns that they wanted, too. I am only pointing out that hunters did not ignore advancements in firearm design, as witnessed by the huge rise in popularity in auto and pump shotguns when they became commercially available. I guess this thread is starting to go off topic and we probably should return it to the O.P.s original subject.

[LaLongbeard]

Yes i did read the  quote. I was discussing the move from doubles to autos and pumps, by prior generations. I did not mention plastic disposable guns, and that was not in the quote i was discussing. That was in one of your previous posts, which i did not quote.Yes, people have always bought what they could afford, but they also bought the guns that they wanted, too. I am only pointing out that hunters did not ignore advancements in firearm design, as witnessed by the huge rise in popularity in auto and pump shotguns when they became commercially available. I guess this thread is starting to go off topic and we probably should return it to the O.P.s original subject.

Definitely off the original topic. But the move to pumps and autos was not because they were in anyway an advancement. If you've ever shot a Purdey double, not the Academy Russian 300$ garbage but a real double, you'd not think any pump is an advancement. Steel shot was not a factor. The first pumps and especially autos were heavy and not as reliable as a fine double. The popularity of the pump/auto was directly related to faster production cheaper product... period. Same reason people buy plastic foreign made crooked shooting shotguns today. The funny thing is the sales people have slowly increased the price while simultaneously convincing the masses that your gun shouldn't shoot were you point it. Now the new guns cost 3-5 times as much as a quality gun from 40 years ago and require aftermarket sights  to hit a turkey at 30 yards.
       People haven't shot a Wingmaster or other quality pump so they don't know their shotgun is supposed to hit were it points without having to screw a scope to it lol.

And yes you directly quoted the disposable shotgun remark, then wrote disposable shotgun in your own reply. If you cannot understand that you cannot understand anything else being said Lol. 

[Dtrkyman]

Shotguns are designed to fit the average sized person, if you are not close to that size you are not looking straight down the barrel.

A friend of mine has a big head, when he shoulders a gun from the factory his barrel is pointing so far to the left there is no way it will shoot straight.

High end guns have adjustable stocks and you can dial in poi/poa, go to a good gun smith and he can get you dialed right in.

My sbe2 wich are notorious for shooting off is spot on with the beads, most of my guns are and according to a former customer of mine that was a pro trap shooter claimed it was due to me being right in line with who guns are built for.

He had me shoulder some different guns and look at my position and I was looking right down the barrel every time.

Tight chokes and heavy loads can mess this up a though.

[owlhoot]

I know that from at least a high school kids perspective in the late 1970's that getting the 870 Wingmasters that myself and some friends bought at 187 dollars on sale was a big improvement from the old doubles, singles,savages and mossburgs. Don't remember any Model 21's. lol.
1100 Auto's were out of reach price wise.
From the many 870's I have had since , Wingmasters , SPS or Express. All shot pretty straight, some maybe eyeball, some aimed at the walts to center the pattern.

[LaLongbeard]

I know that from at least a high school kids perspective in the late 1970's that getting the 870 Wingmasters that myself and some friends bought at 187 dollars on sale was a big improvement from the old doubles, singles,savages and mossburgs. Don't remember any Model 21's. lol.
1100 Auto's were out of reach price wise.
From the many 870's I have had since , Wingmasters , SPS or Express. All shot pretty straight, some maybe eyeball, some aimed at the walts to center the pattern.

The model 21 was Winchester's double shotgun lol?