Decline of turkey population

[wchadw]

Hogs and cold rainy springs


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[dzsmith]

Many pieces to this pie.  A couple pieces that you don't hear mentioned much is more hunters, the dumbing down of turkey hunting  and less trigger control.   Then you throw in a couple bad hatches and some of the other issues mentioned above and you have a problem, a problem that may be long term.

its a bigger part than people are willing to admit. I went to a habit management area in Oregon this past season...Oregon is a bad example to purpose of the post but ill use it. The state or Oregon traps turkeys on private and releases them onto this habitat management area....I talked to the local ranger/officer whatever you call them that lived on and ran the habitat management area. He told me it is common for the locals who turkey hunt to literally kill every single gobbler on the property in the first week of the season maybe the second. you know a thousand acre block or so, 15 toms or so. 7 people show up to hunt in two weeks...and theres now 0 birds there...so they retrap every year and release every year. The guy literally told me that.....so when people think "people" are not part of the equation....they are wrong. Now I understand this is a bad example....but turkey hunting isn't even a thing in that part of the country compared to where im from....we have more turkeys....and a lot more turkey hunters.

[fallhnt]

I would say the only thing good about living in the liberal POS state of IL,that is not known as a turkey hunting state,is the turkey population is doing well.

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[Txag12]

Living in SE Okla and turkey hunting here since 1980 I've never seen it as bad as it is now, except before turkeys were reintroduced.I voiced my concern several years ago to the states SE turkey biologist. At that time his thoughts were two years in a row of very dry summers which killed off bugs that young turkeys depend on to make it. Since then we've had an explosion of pigs and a thriving bear population (which seems to be the primary priority of the Oklahoma Depatment of Wildlife). Now we are having wet springs, and what I think is poor forest management. Add in that fur isn't worth much so not many trappers or coon hunters.I spoke to the biologist just a few weeks ago and he was honest enough to say that they don't know what is going on. They can speculate and on several things that add to the problem but certainly don't have answers as to what to do to reverse the trend.

Being I hunt SE Oklahoma every spring, and have been on a handful of places both private and public, I'm curious to here what you think it is with the numbers? Me I honestly don't know. I do think hatch is some of it, coupled w/ poor habitat management in some places. I do think the hogs are getting out of hand. First year I hunted a particular WMA there were minimal to no signs of hogs, now they are all over it. I also think the numbers are getting really worked over by hunters compared to what they did 10-20 yrs ago. I do think there is a big part of hunting pressure in the equation, one place of private seems to have a very healthy turkey population while not far from it all the population seems moderate at best on state land.

That brings up another point. I feel like pressure takes in toll in ways some hunters don't expect. Yes it obviously kills off more birds, but I think there is some damage done to the number of nesting birds, nesting success, and the overall breeding cycle itself

[Cowboy]

Lots of different reasons are dwindling the turkey population.  I feel all the things mentioned by you all contributed to a decline. Leaning really heavy towards the nest predators.  That is coons, possums, and skunks
No fur market anymore and lack of hide hunters out there.Wet springs around here as well. No doubt the hog explosion for the states with hogs definitely a factor
Those dang things are hard on everything. 

[Meleagris gallopavo]

I believe the effects of Neonicotinoids should be further researched. I know Canadian research showed they can be lethal to adults turkeys. With planting and nesting seasons overlapping, one would think ingestion of neonics by a laying hen would detrimentally effect the unborn chicks. Not to mention the neonics killing insects that the chicks must have.

I would also like to see more research on avian diseases from commercial poultry, such as LPVD virus.

Big Ag has a lot of power though...

I'd like to see that paper.  The only one I could find showed that they could detect neonicotinoids in turkeys killed by hunters.  I highly doubt it's very toxic to them.  Neonics are only toxic to certain insects, not all of them.  Those usually controlled by neonics are piercing-sucking insects like aphids, plant bugs, and thrips. 

[GobbleNut]

its a bigger part than people are willing to admit. I went to a habit management area in Oregon this past season...Oregon is a bad example to purpose of the post but ill use it. The state or Oregon traps turkeys on private and releases them onto this habitat management area....I talked to the local ranger/officer whatever you call them that lived on and ran the habitat management area. He told me it is common for the locals who turkey hunt to literally kill every single gobbler on the property in the first week of the season maybe the second. you know a thousand acre block or so, 15 toms or so. 7 people show up to hunt in two weeks...and theres now 0 birds there...so they retrap every year and release every year. The guy literally told me that.....so when people think "people" are not part of the equation....they are wrong. Now I understand this is a bad example....but turkey hunting isn't even a thing in that part of the country compared to where im from....we have more turkeys....and a lot more turkey hunters.

Not trying to be contrary, but I have a really difficult time believing this story.  Wild turkeys are just not that susceptible to hunting.  Unless those turkeys are pen-raised birds and with some domestic blood in them, and are basically in a habitat that they cannot escape from, the likelihood that a handful of hunters could kill every bird is just not a plausible story. 

Sounds to me like another tale to be added to the "turkey hunters urban legend" series to me.  I would have to personally see that to believe it.   Here's another much more plausible theory:  some of those turkeys are being shot, some of them are adapting to hunting pressure and becoming more reclusive, and some of them are simply moving off of the property onto adjacent lands. 

In many parts of the country, turkeys get hammered for months by hoards of really good turkey hunters and yet, there are still good numbers of turkeys there.  As for the wildlife officer making that claim, I would be very suspicious of his credentials and knowledge about turkey hunting. 

[GobbleNut]

I believe the effects of Neonicotinoids should be further researched. I know Canadian research showed they can be lethal to adults turkeys. With planting and nesting seasons overlapping, one would think ingestion of neonics by a laying hen would detrimentally effect the unborn chicks. Not to mention the neonics killing insects that the chicks must have.

I would also like to see more research on avian diseases from commercial poultry, such as LPVD virus.

Big Ag has a lot of power though...

I'd like to see that paper.  The only one I could find showed that they could detect neonicotinoids in turkeys killed by hunters.  I highly doubt it's very toxic to them.  Neonics are only toxic to certain insects, not all of them.  Those usually controlled by neonics are piercing-sucking insects like aphids, plant bugs, and thrips.

I think the concern is more about the use of these products in that they may be affecting reproduction more-so than their impact on adult birds.  There has been concern for years about things like how they affect egg fertility and egg shell fragility. 

[cracker4112]

Where I am from we haven't seen a decline yet.  Really the opposite, maybe more turkeys than in a while. What has also been constant is the hogs, also more than ever. Down here the hogs and turkeyshave been plentiful together for years.

[GobbleNut]

Where I am from we haven't seen a decline yet.  Really the opposite, maybe more turkeys than in a while. What has also been constant is the hogs, also more than ever. Down here the hogs and turkeyshave been plentiful together for years.

Interesting. ...and surprising.  Your situation just reinforces the need for serious research into the causes of declines in the areas it is happening.  I would have bet money that there was a direct correlation between the increase in hogs and the decrease in turkeys pretty much everywhere across the country where hog numbers are increasing. The causes of your exception should be thoroughly investigated. It would be interesting to know how many other members here have experienced increases in both hogs and turkeys in their areas. 

[zeke632]

Living in SE Okla and turkey hunting here since 1980 I've never seen it as bad as it is now, except before turkeys were reintroduced.I voiced my concern several years ago to the states SE turkey biologist. At that time his thoughts were two years in a row of very dry summers which killed off bugs that young turkeys depend on to make it. Since then we've had an explosion of pigs and a thriving bear population (which seems to be the primary priority of the Oklahoma Depatment of Wildlife). Now we are having wet springs, and what I think is poor forest management. Add in that fur isn't worth much so not many trappers or coon hunters.I spoke to the biologist just a few weeks ago and he was honest enough to say that they don't know what is going on. They can speculate and on several things that add to the problem but certainly don't have answers as to what to do to reverse the trend.

Being I hunt SE Oklahoma every spring, and have been on a handful of places both private and public, I'm curious to here what you think it is with the numbers? Me I honestly don't know. I do think hatch is some of it, coupled w/ poor habitat management in some places. I do think the hogs are getting out of hand. First year I hunted a particular WMA there were minimal to no signs of hogs, now they are all over it. I also think the numbers are getting really worked over by hunters compared to what they did 10-20 yrs ago. I do think there is a big part of hunting pressure in the equation, one place of private seems to have a very healthy turkey population while not far from it all the population seems moderate at best on state land.

That brings up another point. I feel like pressure takes in toll in ways some hunters don't expect. Yes it obviously kills off more birds, but I think there is some damage done to the number of nesting birds, nesting success, and the overall breeding cycle itself

I'm like you, I don't know.  Poor hatch over several years, poaching here is commonplace, poor timber management, nest predators....are some of the common ideas but those things are going on in places that aren't suffering a decline.   The forest service has limited timber cutting to select cut for the most part and do some burning, but after a period of about 2 years those places become so thick due to the canopy opening up its almost impossible to get through much less turkey hunt it.   I don't know. It just doesn't seem to be a priority to the Wildlife department either. 

[cutt down]

Too many hunters ,too liberal bag limit, weather which led to bad hatches, reaping/fanning which has turned some bad to mediocre hunters into consistent killers and just overall poaching I believe    I'm in Tn and I think our check in system allows people to get away without checking in birds.  I know people will argue that isn't true. But that's just what I believe lol

I agree 100%. I don't see or hear NEAR the birds I used to around here in West TN!

[RutnNStrutn]

I've hunted in several states, but mainly hunted in FLA (public) and SC (private). I've seen declines in turkey population in both areas.
Florida is mainly, IMO, due to rampant overdevelopment of the state. I can drive you around the state and show you whole communities that have sprung up where I used to hunt, or drive by and see lots of turkeys. The state is growing in leaps and bounds. Also, there is very poor management of public lands due mainly to underfunding of FWC by the greedy politicians. There used to be food plots on WMA's, stocking of turkeys in areas with small populations, and burning programs for wildlife management. Now for the most part the burn programs are just for wildfire control. The crazy thing is the controlled burns they do are understaffed, and often turn into controlled wildfires themselves, leaving nothing but a charred landscape with dead trees. There is also no predator or feral hog control done. In Florida, hogs have overbred astronomically, and lay waste to lands. Coyotes, bobcats and other turkey killers and nest raiders are increasing in number every year.
In the Lowcountry of SC where I hunt, hogs are becoming more and more of a problem every year. SCDNR does nothing about it. The coyotes are out of control, and routinely stalk your gobbling birds or come to your calls. We see a lot more yotes on the prowl in the spring than during the fall. SCDNR encourages hunters to shoot every yote they see, and has a free lifetime license program for hunters that shoot tagged coyotes. I'm not certain that is an effective strategy though. There is a lot of logging in the Lowcountry, but they always replant, so it is cyclical, and moves the turkeys around to different properties more than it affects the population.
Other states I have hunted, I have noticed the more rural the area is, the greater number of turkeys there are. Less pressure + less killing = more turkeys.

[Meleagris gallopavo]

I believe the effects of Neonicotinoids should be further researched. I know Canadian research showed they can be lethal to adults turkeys. With planting and nesting seasons overlapping, one would think ingestion of neonics by a laying hen would detrimentally effect the unborn chicks. Not to mention the neonics killing insects that the chicks must have.

I would also like to see more research on avian diseases from commercial poultry, such as LPVD virus.

Big Ag has a lot of power though...

I'd like to see that paper.  The only one I could find showed that they could detect neonicotinoids in turkeys killed by hunters.  I highly doubt it's very toxic to them.  Neonics are only toxic to certain insects, not all of them.  Those usually controlled by neonics are piercing-sucking insects like aphids, plant bugs, and thrips.

I think the concern is more about the use of these products in that they may be affecting reproduction more-so than their impact on adult birds.  There has been concern for years about things like how they affect egg fertility and egg shell fragility.

The papers I've read show potential for mutations in quail embryos.  But the studies either used eggs that were directly injected or force fed to quail at doses far beyond what is actually used.  I think the data produced thus far has not directly linked a correlation between neonicitinoid use and bird reproduction.  I certainly think it's something to be further studied but I'm hesitant to point a finger just yet.


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[Crghss]

Don't forget raptors. Hawks where decimated in 70's & 80's due to DDT and other pesticides. Over the years since these chemicals where banned hawks have made a great come back. They will take their share of chicks and poults.

The end (Reduction) of trapping has had a major impact on turkey nests. I think this has been the biggest impact on turkey nests in the northeast.